Cultivation of the Mind

[ChiDragon]

Good morning.....
We have a new member had gave me a challenge and I'm glad that he did. Thanks.

Posted by Daeluin:

Ah! I had never realized humility was a human construct. Perhaps feeling it came from nature was my own confusion.

 

Can you kindly help lead me to greater clarity? I've heard Chinese often view the heart and mind as one. When you say "it is the cultivation of the mind" here are your referring to both, or just one? How might I apply this understanding to greater effect? Is it possible for you to demonstrate for me?

 

Please forgive my bothersome questions, it is ok if you do not have time to answer.

 

This is not a brand new subject. It has been practiced and hidden in the shadow of a Taoist.
Cultivation of the mind is part of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming(DCXM). By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body. Please don't try to look this up in your dictionary is because you will be misled by some mistranslations.

It is going to be a long subject. Please feel free to discuss it.

Edited July 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

I see that Cleary and Pregadio translate these differently.

 

Cleary:

xing: essence

ming: life

 

Pregadio:

xing: nature

ming: existence

 

 

The Yijing says:

 

Acquire into the principles and achieve your [xing], and thereby accomplish your [ming].

 

An ancient immortal said:

 

If you cultivate [xing] and do not cultivate [ming],

For ten thousand kalpas your Yin Numen will hardly enter sainthood.

If you cultivate [ming] and do not cultivate [xing],

it is like having a property without an owner.

 

 

Liu Yiming, Cultivating the Tao, tl Pregadio

 

I need to study these concepts further, but this is a good starting point. Nature, essence, and mind are all very different concepts.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

I thought I have already made myself very clear.

By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body.
Please don't try to look this up in your dictionary is because you will be misled by some mistranslations.

[dawei]

I see that Cleary and Pregadio translate these differently.

 

Cleary:

xing: essence

ming: life

 

Pregadio:

xing: nature

ming: existence

 

 

 

I need to study these concepts further, but this is a good starting point. Nature, essence, and mind are all very different concepts.

 

Please see these threads:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25984-xing-and-ming-essence-and-life-in-the-ddj/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/

 

 

Realize that this idea has a long history and most talk from the more modern approaches as mentioned in the threads. But one would almost have to define the actual system, teaching, or tradition they are talking about when referring to this cultivation.

 

The Nei Yeh is an old work : http://thetaobums.com/forum/256-nei-yeh/

 

But it may differ if your talking Taoist Yoga, visualizing spirits practices, various alchemy teachings, ancient sages, etc. The history is incredibly varied but has a common thread... which I hope you'll know the goal is not about the mind but spirit...

[Daeluin]

Ahahahahhaha.

 

Again you attempt at control, and are surprised when the first direction I go is the opposite.

 

Are you really studying tao?

 

If you create polarity, you better be willing to live with it. Otherwise why create it? There is no absolute. You try to be absolute, and suddenly there is yin to your yang, and yang to your yin. Why you no create balance instead?

 

If one says "xing is mind" and another says "xing is nature" and both use these variables within unfolding contexts that speak for themselves, then what point is it to attach to what the variable stands for?

 

 

The main point concerning [xing] is that there are a [xing] consisting in what is bestowed by Heaven, and a [xing] consisting in one's character.

 

...

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is innate knowledge and innate capacity. It is what "possesses all principles and responds to the ten thousand pursuits."

 

The [xing] that is one's Character can be worthy or foolish, wise or inept.

 

...

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is true, and the [xing] that is one's character is false.

 

...

 

What is true is the precelestial. What is false is the postcelestial. The precelestial is outside Yin and Yang, the postcelestial is within Yin and Yang. Therefore true and false are not the same, and in [xing] and [ming] there are differences.

 

If those who cultivate the Tao know how to cultivate the [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven, they can use it to transform the [xing] that is one's character.

 

Moreover, [xing] is generated from the Heart. The Heart is the dwelling of Spirit; if the Heart is luminous, the Spirit is clear; and if the Spirit is clear, one's [xing] is stable. Thus the creations and transformations operated by the [xing] given by the Tao pertain to one's Heart.

[doc benway]

Good morning.....

We have a new member had gave me a challenge and I'm glad that he did. Thanks.

 

 

 

This is not a brand new subject. It has been practiced and hidden in the shadow of a Taoist.

Cultivation of the mind is part of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming(DCXM). By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body. Please don't try to look this up in your dictionary is because you will be misled by some mistranslations.

 

It is going to be a long subject. Please feel free to discuss it.

 

Your post has the suggestion of absolute certainty and authority.

 

Can you tell us something about the Daoist sect and master(s) you have studied with?

 

Is this "Chinese Taoist definition" accepted by all schools and practitioners?

[Daeluin]

I'd also like to point to this post by ChiDragon.

From a linguistic point of view.
1. 性(xing) is the nature or character of a living thing.
2. 命(ming) is the life of a living thing.
3. 性命(xing ming): is the life of a living thing.

 

In any case, I understand these terms to be very subtle, as they describe the very heart of cultivating oneness. Any one word definition seems to be quite inappropriate.

 

In a western standpoint, the "mind" is associated mainly with the brain. And yet from these translations and from my own practices I feel I have experienced some of what is meant by [xing]. Perhaps it is related to the "mind of tao", but my feeling of the mind of tao is much deeper than the brain... especially as one merges deeper into oneness with [ming]... how can one say it is fixed in one place?

 

As for absolute truths... I am reminded of:

 

One knows what is true and what is not true, what is false and what is not false, only when one looks at all this by maintaining oneself in "not discussing the Tao" and "not speaking on the Tao." Could I make discriminations about this?

 

Thus far Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao is being very helpful, at least to me.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

It doesn't matter who said what or where is coming from. It only matters dose it make any sense to be cultivated.

The history of where is coming from will not help the cultivation in any way except how each individual understanding the concept. One of the purpose in cultivating the mind is to learn get the fact straight by absorbing as much knowledge as possible. If one read something with many definitions, one has to evaluate what is the closest meaning. One has to determine who is the most knowledgeable. If one believes everything one reads but undigested, then the question would be did one understand what one had read or just took it for granted.

I have a point to make with these definitions. If you don't want to hear it, then please try not to derail this thread. I thank you in advance.

This thread will advice one to be patience and keep one's poise as part of cultivating the mind in a Taoist manner.

[dawei]

Thus far Liu Yiming's Cultivating the Tao is being very helpful, at least to me.

 

On TTB:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32757-cultivating-the-tao-by-fabrizio/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/18847-liu-i-ming-18th-century-taoist-adept/

[ChiDragon]

From a linguistic point of view.
1. 性(xing) is the nature or character of a living thing.
2. 命(ming) is the life of a living thing.
3. 性命(xing ming): is the life of a living thing.

I think you had taken this out of context to put it in your favor. Did you ignore my last definition by the Taoists? I was only trying to point out the difference in meaning between the ordinary language and the esoteric Taoist terms.

"By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body."
Please understand that I must follow this definitions, in order, to carry on with the thread. If I use other definitions, then the thread will not be valid.

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

One has to determine who is the most knowledgeable. If one believes everything one reads but undigested, then the question would be did one understand what one had read or just took it for granted.

 

 

This is exactly why I am asking for information regarding your Daoist training and affiliation.

You have asked us to accept your definitions without question.

I am asking for some evidence of your credibility.

[Daeluin]

One of the purpose in cultivating the mind is to learn get the fact straight by absorbing as much knowledge as possible. If one read something with many definitions, one has to evaluate what is the closest meaning. One has to determine who is the most knowledgeable. If one believes everything one reads but undigested, then the question would be did one understand what one had read or just took it for granted.

 

I agree this is an approach to understanding.

However, this is only a way to refine the postcelestial [xing], which Liu Yiming calls the false [xing].

 

Tao Teh Jing, 71:

 

It is best for one to stop knowing what they know;

To pretend to know when one does not know,

is sickness.

Only when one is able to feel bitter with such sickness,

Can one be free from sickness.

Sages have no such sickness.

As they often feel bitter with the sickness of people,

they are never sick.

 

Hu Xuezhi

 

 

 

I have a point to make with these definitions. If you don't want to hear it, then please try not to derail this thread. I thank you in advance.

 

Hmmm.... I merely pointed out alternate definitions. You were free to share anything you wanted, but you chose to attach to the definitions.... thus we've been dancing with this polarity.

 

Every post I make goes further into the discussion of [xing] and [ming] which you invited... how am I derailing?

 

This thread will advice one to be patience and keep one's poise as part of cultivating the mind in a Taoist manner.

 

I suppose I'll take this as the demonstration of humility I asked for. Thanks!

[GrandmasterP]

It's fair comment and CD's defined his terms so we should debate on and from those terms or start another thread using other definitions.

Otherwise there's no constructive chat. We're just arguing about definitions.

Let's work with what we have here and maybe use other approaches elsewhere.

Take it away CD, what's your input as regards the force and direction of those two concepts in relation to cultivation?

Are they in fact two separate and 'independently acting' concepts or might they be facets of one thing ( Tao for example)?

Edited July 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Vitalii]

Cultivation of the mind is part of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming(DCXM). By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body. Please don't try to look this up in your dictionary is because you will be misled by some mistranslations.

 

It is going to be a long subject. Please feel free to discuss it.

 

Xing and Ming are not just mind and body.

Etymologically speaking, the character xing 性 consists of xin 心 (“heart-mind”) and sheng 生 (“to be born”); Xing or Innate nature is the heart-mind with which one was born. Thus, innate [heart] nature is sometimes referred to as “original nature” (benxing 本性). Innate [heart] nature is original spirit (yuan shen 元神).

Also can say that Xing is associated with heart-mind, soul, and spirit, while Ming is associated not only with the body, physicality, and the psycho-physiological basis of life but also is a original Qi (元氣).

[ChiDragon]

Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:46 AM

性命双修是道教的重要思想与教义，也是内丹学术语
The dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is the important concept of the Taoist religion and canon; and they are also the technical terms of Neidan.

“性”“命”的含义(The meanings of Xing and Ming)
性指人的心性、思想、秉性、性格、精神等。命指人的身体、生命、能量、命运、物质等。性命双修也就是指“神形兼修”、心身全面修炼。《中和集》、《性命圭旨》、《天仙金丹心法》、《天仙正理直论》、《金仙证论》等书都有关于“性命双修”的论述。《性命圭旨》说：“何谓之性？元始真如，一灵炯炯是也。何为之命？先天至精，一气氤氲是也。”又说：“性之造化系乎心，命之造化系乎身。”陈撄宁大师说：“性即是吾人之灵觉，命即是吾人之生机。”可谓既深刻，又生动。人的生命实际上是两个生命即精神生命和生理生命的双重融合，人们通常说要身心健康，亏其一即残缺不全。所以性命二字高度概括了人生的两大要素。

Xing is the mind, thoughts, one's nature, personality, and spirit. Ming is the body, life, energy, destiny, and substance. The dual cultivation of Xing and Ming which means the cultivation for "the spirit and the form". The spirit is the mind and form is the body. In these classics 《中和集》、《性命圭旨》、《天仙金丹心法》、《天仙正理直论》、《金仙证论》 have mentioned the dual cultivation of the Xing and Ming. In the classic of 《性 命圭旨》says: "What is xing? The initial primary is really like one bright spirit. What is Ming? It is the prenatal essence like one dense steamy mist. It was also said: "Xing is the formation of the heart. Ming is the formation of the body. The great master ”陈撄宁" said: "Xing is my grokking sensory., Ming is my vital organism." Then it was said to be profound and lively. A living being had two lives; they are the integration of the spiritual life and the physical life. People always say that we must have a healthy heart(mind) and body. If there is a lack of one or other, then there will be a handicap. Hence, Xing and Ming are two big factors of life.


Ref: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32653-taoist-important-thoughts-and-canon/

Edited July 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Body, mind, soul, and spirit.

 

I like that.

[ChiDragon]

道教提倡是“性”与“命”的统一 (The Taoist religion advocates the integration of Xing and Ming)

既然命是指人的生命，性是指人的精神意识，那么很显然，对人的生存来说，两个方面都是不可缺少的，而人的存在实际上就是命与性的统一。一方面， 人必须以生命的存在为基础，一旦没有了生命，人就变成一具死尸，人也就随之死亡；另一方面，人也不能离开精神意识，没有精神意识，人就变成一种纯粹的生命 存在，其生活最多像动物一样，当然也谈不上作为人的存在。而且人的生命和精神意识之间还存在着密切的联系，它们互相依存、互相影响、互相作用，是一个矛盾 的统一体。在道教看来，作为人，不仅要有形气所表现的生命，而且要有精神意识所表现的性，他是生命与精神意识即命与性的统一体，这就像人不仅要有形、气、 神，而且是形、气、神的统一体一样。[1]

The Taoist religion advocates that Xing and Ming to be integrated. If Ming is referred as life, Xing is the spiritual subconsciousness, then, it is very obvious that life is the fundamental necessity for one's existence. It is impossible to be lack of either one. If once there was no life, then the human body will become a corpse as the result of death. In the other hand, one cannot be do away with the spiritual subconsciousness. If one is without a spiritual subconsciousness, then one would be just existed as a living body. One's living style would be just like an animal. Of course, it cannot be said that one has been existed as a human being. Furthermore, there is an interrelationship between the body and the spiritual subconsciousness. They are coexisted, mutually effecting each other, mutually functional, and it is a complemented body but also an integrated one. As far as a Taoist is concern, to be a human, a sign of life doesn't only rely on the image of the body; but one needs the spiritual subconsciousness to indicate the existence of an intellectual mind(Xing). The body and the spiritual subconsciousness are the integration of Xing and Ming. Hence, a human is not only require to have a Form(形), Chi(气), and Shen(神), but the Form, Chi and Shen are to be integrated as a whole.

[Aetherous]

I thought I have already made myself very clear.

 

By the Chinese Taoist definition, Xing(性) is the mind; Ming(命) is the body.

Please don't try to look this up in your dictionary is because you will be misled by some mistranslations.

 

Other Chinese Taoists define these things much differently...so I would bet that most members of this forum don't take your word for it.

[ChiDragon]

Other Chinese Taoists define these things much differently...so I would bet that most members of this forum don't take your word for it.

 

I'll try to follow this logic. These are the general principles laid out for most Chinese Taoists. Of course, they may be deviated by others.

 

Well, some Chinese Taoists have one final effective result from the practice. Perhaps, the others might have multi-results or no result.

 

Again, it was suggested one should follow these principles with one's own discretion.

Edited July 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

ChiDragon... I think the situation has changed, so I've removed the post I had here. Thank you for the conversation on xing and ming.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Daeluin

[Aetherous]

I'll try to follow this logic. These are the general principles laid out for most Chinese Taoists. Of course, they may be deviated by others.

 

Yes, the meanings of xing and ming might be deviated by people other than actual Taoists...people such as yourself. Not trying to be argumentative toward you, but a Chinese person with an interest in Taoism (who hasn't officially trained in a legitimate school) is just not able to give definitive translations of Taoist terms.

[dawei]

Yes, the meanings of xing and ming might be deviated by people other than actual Taoists...people such as yourself. Not trying to be argumentative toward you, but a Chinese person with an interest in Taoism (who hasn't officially trained in a legitimate school) is just not able to give definitive translations of Taoist terms.

 

The bigger issue, and we went through this before... is that the source is a chinese wiki-like page... Most would be better off picking a book and posting a discussion of its actual practice and method.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, the meanings of xing and ming might be deviated by people other than actual Taoists...people such as yourself. Not trying to be argumentative toward you, but a Chinese person with an interest in Taoism (who hasn't officially trained in a legitimate school) is just not able to give definitive translations of Taoist terms.

 

Thank you for your response. One may assume that it may be difficult for one to be a self-cultivator. Even though I haven't officially trained in a legitimate school, if I had judged each book by its jacket, then, I probably wouldn't have gone this far. Have you read the contents of my translation and found some errors. If you do, please point them out. I may not able to to give definitive translations of Taoist terms but I may be able to translate the interpretations of the terms by the knowledgeable people.

 

FYI....

At first, I didn't know what the esoteric Taoist term Xing(性) meant, but I have learnt by translating the article that I'm using here. For the same token, if there is an English word that I am not familiar with, do you think I am able to find out its meaning in this modern information age....???

 

Is it fair for someone to invalidate the contents of this tread before it was finish.....??? Is it fair to discard the message because the messenger was walking barefooted....???

 

PS.....

You have reminded of another life story of mine.

When I was a copier repairman, on a service call, I was walking toward a copier in an office. A guy in the office told me not to touch the copier because I was not wearing a tie. If I was not a self-cultivator, then I probably would be ashamed of myself. However, I stood up to the guy and told him without a tie on me; he will have the copier up and running in no time. With a tie, his copier will be working tomorrow. Guess what? He was making copies while I was on my way out of the office.

 

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

 

Thank you for your response. One may assume that it may be difficult for one to be a self-cultivator. Even though I haven't officially trained in a legitimate school, if I had judged each book by its jacket, then, I probably wouldn't have gone this far. Have you read the contents of my translation and found some errors. If you do, please point them out. I may not able to to give definitive translations of Taoist terms but I may be able to translate the interpretations of the terms by the knowledgeable people.

 

FYI....

At first, I didn't know what the esoteric Taoist term Xing(性) meant, but I have learnt by translating the article that I'm using here. For the same token, if there is an English word that I am not familiar with, do you think I am able to find out its meaning in this modern information age....???

 

Is it fair for someone to invalidate the contents of this tread before it was finish.....??? Is it fair to discard the message because the messenger was walking barefooted....???

 

PS.....

You have reminded of another life story of mine.

When I was a copier repairman, on a service call, I was walking toward a copier in an office. A guy in the office told me not to touch the copier because I was not wearing a tie. If I was not a self-cultivator, then I probably would be ashamed of myself. However, I stood up to the guy and told him without a tie on me; he will have the copier up and running in no time. With a tie, his copier will be working tomorrow. Guess what? He was making copies while I was on my way out of the office.

 

 

My intention was never to validate the thread's contents before they were finished.

 

When you present a definition with absolute authority, I think it's reasonable to question your resource.

 

If you stated that the definitions were YOUR personal understanding through your study, then I would feel no need to question you and I would understand that your conclusions were YOUR opinion through your personal study (with or without a master).

 

If you state that the definitions are THE Chinese Taoist definitions, then I cannot accept that unless you can show evidence that you have the authority to speak for all schools and practitioners.

 

I hope you can see the difference here.

[Ish]

Quote I spotted in "The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters" :

 

 

 

 

Liu Chuxuan, for example, wrote: ... The Realized Ones cultivate their Nature (spirit) and Life (qi), and the pretenders nurture their physical bodies.

 

 

It could clarify some misconception that can be had, thinking that Ming is related to training the physical body.

Also Xing goes beyond conventional "mind" in my opinion.