Cultivation of the Mind

[ChiDragon]

My intention was never to validate the thread's contents before they were finished.

 

When you present a definition with absolute authority, I think it's reasonable to question your resource.

 

If you stated that the definitions were YOUR personal understanding through your study, then I would feel no need to question you and I would understand that your conclusions were YOUR opinion through your personal study (with or without a master).

 

If you state that the definitions are THE Chinese Taoist definitions, then I cannot accept that unless you can show evidence that you have the authority to speak for all schools and practitioners.

 

I hope you can see the difference here.

 

I do aware it is very important to you that one has to learn from a master in order to speak. However, I have heard some people went to some school and speak without merit. It is really insignificant to me what school one went to as long the things one says which make sense to me. Likewise, I will accept anything I'd read which make sense regardless who says it. If a little thing like that which bothers you so much, then, there is no sense for us to argue the same issue over and over since day one. For the sake of our last embarrassment, I was not really fond of your understanding about the breathing involvement with the practices. Especially, a point of view from a teacher. I am assuming that you had given me the impression that you are a teacher.

 

 

PS.....

Besides you are against the jacket of the book, how about its contents....???

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[goldisheavy]

My intention was never to validate the thread's contents before they were finished.

 

When you present a definition with absolute authority, I think it's reasonable to question your resource.

 

I interpret authority differently from you, Steve. When I sense someone speaking with authority, how I act depends on what is being said. If the message demands that I act a certain way, I can interpet that as coercion, and then I can get very aggressive, even violent. If it simply confidently states something as to present some thoughts for consideration, I'll simply consider what is being said. I have no problem with confidence and self-assuredness in this latter case.

 

The best and highest authority comes from internal contact with the truth and not from lineages, political associations, secret clubs, big names, and so on. If not supplemented by direct personal intimate subjective contact with the higher esoteric truth, the kind of authority that a person gets from being associated with an old lineage is simply cold and stale leftovers, probably past its expiration date and whether we should eat such leftovers is questionable. But if one is starving, then leftovers are a meal fit for a king.

 

If you stated that the definitions were YOUR personal understanding through your study, then I would feel no need to question you and I would understand that your conclusions were YOUR opinion through your personal study (with or without a master).

 

If you state that the definitions are THE Chinese Taoist definitions, then I cannot accept that unless you can show evidence that you have the authority to speak for all schools and practitioners.

 

I hope you can see the difference here.

 

Accepting something because big names agree is misguided.

 

Let ChiDragon speak with authority. As long as he's not telling us to till his private field for him, no harm done. He's just presenting ideas.

 

Authority should always be questioned anyway, even if it appears legitimate. So? Since I will question everything anyway, what is the point of flashing one's teachers here? It's not like I will suspend my good judgment for a big name.

 

I hope ChiDragon proceeds directly to his point as quickly as possible and ignores all the questions about authority. All this decorum and propriety justling is getting annoying. I like to think we are big boys and girls here and we can decide for ourselves if it's worth paying attention to or not. Storied lineages do not impress me. Deep knowledge does. And how do I know what that is? I know it for myself by direct intimate contact.

[manitou]

Posted by Daeluin:

 

 

 

Ah! I had never realized humility was a human construct. Perhaps feeling it came from nature was my own confusion.

 

Can you kindly help lead me to greater clarity? I've heard Chinese often view the heart and mind as one. When you say "it is the cultivation of the mind" here are your referring to both, or just one? How might I apply this understanding to greater effect? Is it

 

* * * * ****

 

Referring to Daeluins original questions:

 

I see the heart and mind thing as the same form as the chakras - two adjoining cones, one pointing out, one pointing in. Two cones attached at the tips.

 

As I see it, this is metaphoric for the heart/mind phenomena we're speaking of here. There is much outer knowledge to be gained. This is represented by one cone. There is much inner knowledge to be gained. This is represented by the other cone facing the opposite way.

 

It seems to be when the two cones have been filled and emptied that Awareness occurs. The one cone will be filled with outer knowledge; the teachings of others. The other cone will be voided, the inner one. It's a removal process; a removal of preconceptions, opinions, and the faulty input of well-meaning people throughout our entire lives.

 

Folks, I would think, would generally first be interested in the outer cone; the cone of knowledge of others. Once one is attracted to the Daoist or Buddhist mindset, then naturally one would start to learn all they could from others, both dead and alive. And there are more than a few folks who stay within the realm of this particular cone. True insight is never attained.

 

But there is a contingent of us that emptied the one cone before filling the other one. Those of us who went down the wrong life path from the get-go. We are the recovering ones, who had to empty the inner cone first and change our perception of the world altogether. The alcoholics, the addicts, the street people. When recovery is truly attained, it is after years of inner work, removing our shadows. This, as I see it, relates to what Daeluin said, and truly is a human construct as far as getting to the bottom of our character. It is there that humility is found, when the I Am is found.

 

So for the ones who emptied the one cone before filling the other, the reading of any spiritual literature, be it Daoist, Buddhist, Metaphysical, Mystic Christianity - it all makes sense. All of it.

[Daeluin]

I do aware it is very important to you that one has to learn from a master in order to speak. However, I have heard some people went to some school and speak without merit. It is really insignificant to me what school one went to as long the things one says which make sense to me. Likewise, I will accept anything I'd read which make sense regardless who says it. If a little thing like that which bothers you so much, then, there no sense for us to argue the same issue over and over since day one. For the sake of our last embarrassment, I was not really fond of your understanding about the breathing involvement with the practices. Especially, a point of view from a teacher. I am assuming that you had given me the impression that you are a teacher.

 

 

PS.....

Besides you are against the jacket of the book, how about its contents....???

 

ChiDragon.... I studied knowledge for a long time. I followed principles, which condensed upon themselves all ways validating themselves by creating more oneness and simplicity. Gradually the entire world began to seamlessly unite under a handful of principles. And more and more I found taoist teaching agreed with what I had learned through the post-celestial xing (mind knowledge).

 

There came a point where I hit a wall. I had an incredibly deep understanding that I could only continue to develop horizontally, but could no longer develop vertically, with mental pursuits.

 

Thus I sought out and found a master. I am no longer taught with words, but through energy experiences based on my diligence in cultivation. If I only cultivate my energy at certain levels, I do not change. If I attach to what the energy should feel like, I do not change. If I maintain mental awareness of what my body experiences in energy work, my mind does not change. When I surrender the attachments that fix my mind in place, I am able to dissolve what holds my mind back and allow the energy to flow freely throughout. When I do this, everything I think I know is surrendered and my very mind-self changes. As it does, my heart and mind (intricately connected to the rest of my body), are empty yet full, separate but one. They flow with my whole body, as I cultivate precelestial xing and ming and bring them ever closer together. As I surrender expectation, my entire identity changes, and I am blessed to sometimes completely fall into incredible states of awareness. All of this is possible because I am doing the work with emptiness, and because of my emptiness my master is able to gently assist me in settling into a new awareness, with "a word or half a sentence", just enough to make an adjustment without my mind getting in the way. Without my master I would not be able to navigate.

 

So it is not about having a diploma or credentials. It is about doing the subtle work that cannot be understood or fathomed with the mind, which requires a guide, and requires surrendering.

 

When you say: It is really insignificant to me what school one went to as long the things one says which make sense to me. Likewise, I will accept anything I'd read which make sense regardless who says it. I agree. And what you say is clearly trapped by the limit of mental understanding, and does not add up to those of us who have gone beyond the limit of mental understanding. You need to break through this trap, and perhaps then you will understand why we dismiss your perfect mental logic - because on another level it doesn't add up.

 

I say this and confront you for two reasons. First, I see how hard you try, and what a genuinely good person you are, and that you are coming from a place with an open heart. Second, you do not seem to realize how your attachment to a limited level of understanding is actually limiting those who are absorbing your words as an absolute truth.

 

Please remember tao te ching 71 - knowledge is a sickness. When we are able to maintain a state empty of all thought all things are clear. Please remember Liu Yiming's quote from earlier in this thread. True and false may only be distinguished when one is not discussing the tao. In other words... one must dissolve all knowledge to truly discover the tao.

 

In any case, I do not wish to press this issue further. Perhaps you are here as a capping stone to prevent us from sharing too much poignancy via our words. I'm fine with that. Love to you.

[Daeluin]

But there is a contingent of us that emptied the one cone before filling the other one. Those of us who went down the wrong life path from the get-go. We are the recovering ones, who had to empty the inner cone first and change our perception of the world altogether. The alcoholics, the addicts, the street people. When recovery is truly attained, it is after years of inner work, removing our shadows. This, as I see it, relates to what Daeluin said, and truly is a human construct as far as getting to the bottom of our character. It is there that humility is found, when the I Am is found.

 

So for the ones who emptied the one cone before filling the other, the reading of any spiritual literature, be it Daoist, Buddhist, Metaphysical, Mystic Christianity - it all makes sense. All of it.

 

This is a very interesting way of looking at it... maybe it does apply to my situation. Before I left home, I had absolutely no autonomy, and as I became a teenager and began to fight against my oppression, I was up against someone who would never lose a battle.

 

Thus, when I went to college and attained my freedom, I discovered that my outer cone had been unable to fill. I had retained somewhat limited knowledge from 13 years of public school. But on the other hand.... I also had no idea who I was. My inner cone had developed patterns for dealing with oppression - often some sort of escapism into fiction or my imagination.

 

I spent the next decade creating my ego, discovering who I was. A lot of it was exploring principles, on the inside and out. Building relationships and friendships for the first time in my life. Maybe I was filling both cones? As I developed over the years, certain patterns of escaping became predominant and I eventually learned how to embrace these shadow patterns and do the work of dissolving them.

 

Still though.... I would consider a tree humble. Many things in nature prefer to exist in harmony, giving way to one another very naturally, not trying to be greedy. Sure there are the carnivores and parasites. Sure there are humans learning to dissolve their egos. But when the xing is healthy and whole in a human, would that human be naturally humble and modest?

 

It's funny.... as I developed my ego, I found myself fixating on rightousness that came from my understanding. When I would share understandings, people would react, and this bothered me. Eventually I came to understand how intense fixations really tend to bother people, and I learned to change and work towards creating harmony. Hah... am still learning.

[doc benway]

I do aware it is very important to you that one has to learn from a master in order to speak. However, I have heard some people went to some school and speak without merit. It is really insignificant to me what school one went to as long the things one says which make sense to me. Likewise, I will accept anything I'd read which make sense regardless who says it. If a little thing like that which bothers you so much, then, there no sense for us to argue the same issue over and over since day one. For the sake of our last embarrassment, I was not really fond of your understanding about the breathing involvement with the practices. Especially, a point of view from a teacher. I am assuming that you had given me the impression that you are a teacher.

 

 

PS.....

Besides you are against the jacket of the book, how about its contents....???

 

 

I interpret authority differently from you, Steve. When I sense someone speaking with authority, how I act depends on what is being said. If the message demands that I act a certain way, I can interpet that as coercion, and then I can get very aggressive, even violent. If it simply confidently states something as to present some thoughts for consideration, I'll simply consider what is being said. I have no problem with confidence and self-assuredness in this latter case.

 

The best and highest authority comes from internal contact with the truth and not from lineages, political associations, secret clubs, big names, and so on. If not supplemented by direct personal intimate subjective contact with the higher esoteric truth, the kind of authority that a person gets from being associated with an old lineage is simply cold and stale leftovers, probably past its expiration date and whether we should eat such leftovers is questionable. But if one is starving, then leftovers are a meal fit for a king.

 

 

Accepting something because big names agree is misguided.

 

Let ChiDragon speak with authority. As long as he's not telling us to till his private field for him, no harm done. He's just presenting ideas.

 

Authority should always be questioned anyway, even if it appears legitimate. So? Since I will question everything anyway, what is the point of flashing one's teachers here? It's not like I will suspend my good judgment for a big name.

 

I hope ChiDragon proceeds directly to his point as quickly as possible and ignores all the questions about authority. All this decorum and propriety justling is getting annoying. I like to think we are big boys and girls here and we can decide for ourselves if it's worth paying attention to or not. Storied lineages do not impress me. Deep knowledge does. And how do I know what that is? I know it for myself by direct intimate contact.

 

You are both correct.

 

The reason I questioned ChiDragon's authority and credibility is because he has provided so much misleading information on so many occasions over the years regarding topics involving Taijiquan and Daoist cultivation.

It is not that important to me that information necessarily come from a teacher or a lineage or a big name, but if there is a long history of misinformation from a particular source, I tend to be skeptical (and perhaps overly critical).

 

On the other hand, this moment is new and fresh and who knows what is possible.

And you are correct goldisheavy, we are each responsible for what we accept and reject.

It's not my job to make sure people present accurate or sensible information here, although I tend to act as if it is sometimes.

I can be an ass and it's good time be reminded of that periodically.

 

Peace y'all

[joeblast]

'Licchavi Vimalakirti came to the foot of that tree and said to me, ’Reverend Sariputra, this is not the way to absorb yourself in contemplation. You should absorb yourself in contemplation so that neither body nor mind appear anywhere in the triple world. You should absorb yourself in contemplation in such a way that you can manifest all ordinary behavior without forsaking cessation. You should absorb yourself in contemplation in such a way that you can manifest the nature of an ordinary person without abandoning your cultivated spiritual nature.'
Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra

[doc benway]

The more I think about this the more I appreciate the opportunity this thread has given me.

Here I am, criticizing a member while at the same time I'm appealing for civility in the Buddhist forum.

What's up with that?

 

ChiDragon - please accept my apology for being overly critical and aggressive.

Goldisheavy - thanks for helping me to see myself a little more clearly.

Great stuff for me - sorry it had to be at ChiDragon's expense.

I love you all!

 

_/\_

[ChiDragon]

So far, I think the light of the OP is radiating its brilliancy.

The cultivation of the mind is not just with words but the action of the execution. Holding one's emotion in an adverse situation is the hardest thing to do by not expressing anger. Only a practitioner of such civilized art may easy anger into a peaceful ending.

FYI...
The cultivation of the mind has begun since the OP was initiated.




@ Steve...no problem. No apology needed. It was only a natural course of stepping through the path in the direction with Tao.

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

性命双修的适用范围
The suitable application for the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming.

道教关於性命双修的理论，就其一般原则而言，既可以用於道教信众，亦可用於世俗人群，既可以用於古代社会，又可以用於现代社会。从一定意义上说，非教徒和现代人更应该重视性命双修，因为现代社会相当数量的人，性与命两个方面都出现严重的病态，如不加以解决，将危及人类的身心健康。心性生命即精神生命方面的病态主要是缺乏信仰和理想，趋向功利实用和短期行为，生活日益浅薄化和狭隘化。形体生命即生理生命方面的病态主要是环境恶化、不良嗜好以及过度享受造成生理损害、生命力脆弱和恶性疾病中。要解决这些问题固然要靠环境改善，同时也要靠人的主观修炼，并且去改造环境。若多数人懂得并且去努力实践性命双修，人生与社会的健康化进程会大大加快。

Regarding to the theory of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming of the Toajiao(道教, Taoist Religion), Generally speaking, it can be applied to the Taojiao disciples as as well as the ordinary people. Also, it is applicable to the ancient society as well as modern. Speaking from a particular point of view, the non-Taoist disciples and the temporal people should be seriously considered the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming. It is because, nowadays, there are quite a number of people having serious problems with Xing and Ming. If the problems have not been resolved, then, it will effect the health of the body and mind. The intellectual mind(心性) which is the spirit of the body, its major symptom is the lack of beliefs and idealism. Their trend is to gain something pragmatically and short term which make life less fruitful and narrower. The body(形体) with physiological problems are mainly caused by the environmental impact. In addition, our bad habits and over leisure were creating some chronic problems; and the body is in the process of weakening and deteriorating. To resolve all these problems, it is definitely to improve the environment. At the same, it is also to cultivate oneself subjectively. If people aware of the significance of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and MIng, then, the health of our lives and the society will be in progress at a much faster rate.

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

性命双修的现实意义
The pragmatic meaning of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming

心理健康与生理健康同时并重。不但要追求强壮体魄，也要追求健全的心理素质，使精神生命和生理生命两个方面都得到活泼的发展，这才能有真正的幸福人生。《性命圭旨》的说法是：神不离气，气不离神;性不离命，命不离性

The psychological and physiological health are equally important. It was only to pursuit a strong and healthy body but also a complete healthy psychological quality of the mind. Hence, this will let the spiritual and physical lives to have a lively development; and attain the true happiness in our lives. In the classic of 性命圭旨, it says: Shen does not depart from the Chi and Chi does not depart from Shen, the spiritual mind does not depart from the body(命) and the body does not depart from the spiritual mind(形)

以生理变化心理，以心理变化生理。体弱多病者先从命功入手，炼精化气，去病健身，然后心神安定， 炼气化神，炼神还虚，提高精神境界。心理脆弱或行为不良者，则先从性功入手，炼己筑基，排除私心杂念，调整平衡，提高追求层次，开拓心胸情怀，然后配合服药和炼气，性能得到良好的效验。性功与命功可以在不同时候有不同侧重，但要互相带动，共同长进。

Let the physiological function of the body change the psychological function of the mind, and let the psychological function mind change the physiological function of the body. One who has physical problems should start with the Ming Kung first. Refine Jing to Chi to eliminate the illness and invigorate the body. Then to pacify the mind next; refine Chi to Shen, refine Shen to Void; this to elevate the state of the spiritual subconsciousness to the highest realm. One who has a weak psychological mind and bad habits, then, one should begin with the practice of Xing Kung, cultivate oneself with a fundamental foundation by removing the selfishness and distracting thoughts, mental balancing, pursuit and elevate thoughts to higher levels, open up the heart and mind, then supplement with medicine and practice breathing to have the mind attain its highest functional efficacy. Xing Kung and Ming Kung can be performed separately with different magnitude but they are must be mutually interact in a progressive manner with each other.

Note: Let's have a good understand what 功(Kung) means.
功(Kung) is the final end result from a diligent practice. It is, also, the efficacy acquired from a specific cultivated method to have the highest functional performance in a particular area or something.
Therefore, Ming Kung is a method for the practice to acquire the highest functional performance of the body.

性命双修要循序渐进，由低到高，由浅入深。内丹家有"初关、中关、上关"之说，有得窍、和合得药、脱胎;之说，有先摄心修性，次炼化精气修命，最后粉碎虚空;之说，要不出初级、中级、高级三大阶段，次弟而上，不可躐等。无论心灵的净化、境界的提升，还是气血的调适、体质的强化，都不是一蹴而就的事，要勤学苦练，长期坚持，不断体悟和反省，才能渐入佳境。当然渐中有顿，这是自然得来，不可强求。

The Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming should be performed sequentially in a progressive manner; from low level to high, and from shallow to profound. The Neidan-ist had spoken of the "beginning level, middle, and advanced"......................................................Whatever it was, form purifying the spiritual heart, elevated to the next realm, regulating the chi-blood, or the enhancement of the quality of the body, it cannot be done in a second, it needs lots of endurance to practice diligently. It is a long term project which needs continuance of body sensation and mental intuition to progress into the realm of refinement. Of course, there are some hardships but it has to be acquired naturally, not forcefully.

[ChiDragon]

性命双修修习的方法
The procedure to cultivate the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming(DCXM).

由于人的存在既离不开性也离不开命，是性与命的统一体，所以养生修道惟有性命双修方能建功；否则，只修性则命不能保，只修命则性无以存，都不能达到性命常存、得道成仙的目的。所以养生修道必须遵循性命双修的原则。

It is because the existence of a person which is inseparable from the Xing and Ming. The body person is an integral part of them as a whole. Therefore, to have the functional efficacy of preserving life cultivating the principles of Tao is solely can be done by DCXM. Otherwise, if one only cultivate Xing, then it cannot preserve Ming. if one only cultivate Ming, then it cannot preserve Xing. Hence, it cannot preserve both at the same time or meeting the goal to become an immortal. Indeed, in the cultivation of the principle in preserving life, the principle of DCXM must be observed.

性命双修是一个综合的修习过程。它至少包括以下几项活动：
1. 理性认识活动，读书、请教、反省，对於自己的状态和追求的人生目标，有一个清醒认识。
2. 道德修养活动，树立远大思想，协调人际关系，增强仁爱之心。
3. 形体锻炼活动，包括治病、气轼、运动、营养及良好的生活方式、作息制度等，不必求难贪高，只求简便易行，适合自己。

The DCXM is a multi-practice procedural routine. At least, it includes the following activities:
1. Rational activities are reading, learning, introspection, self image and pursuit a goal in life, should have a lucid understanding all of the above.
2. The cultivation of moral conduct activities are to broaden one's wisdom, be harmonious with public relationship, and to have a merciful heart.
3. Physical body cultivation activities includes cure illnesses, 气轼(?), exercise, having nutritional foods and good living habits. Don't be avaricious and go beyond one's ability but only do whatever is suitable for oneself.

社会实践活动，内丹家强调;内外双修;功行两全，不仅要修性功、命功，还要利物济生、苦己利人、参与社会、积累功德，使性命双修在社会生活中见到实效。以上几项活动事实还是结合在一起，彼此穿插进行的，不可机械分割。

The actual activities in society, the Neidan-ist insisted the cultivation should be done externally and internally, not just to cultivate the Xing Kung and Ming kung; but also should help all the living beings, sacrifice with painstaking to benefit others, participate and be active in society, to be virtuous. Let the actual effect of DCXM be revealed in society. The above list of the activities ought to be combined and interact accordingly and randomly rather than carried out mechanically.

作为教外之士，很难理解和体会内丹家的具有宗教神秘性的高级修习状态，但一般人仍然可以从性命双修的理论中吸收做人、做事和健身的生命智慧，使人生变得更健康、更美好。

Those who are outside of the Taoist Religion(Taojiao) may be unintelligible or comprehend the high cultivated level of the religious mystery. However, most people may enhance their wisdom by absorbing the principle of the DCXM to be a better person, in handling personal affairs, and invigorate their bodies. As a result, all that will make our lives to be more healthier and wonderful.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[goldisheavy]

ChiDragon.... I studied knowledge for a long time. I followed principles, which condensed upon themselves all ways validating themselves by creating more oneness and simplicity. Gradually the entire world began to seamlessly unite under a handful of principles. And more and more I found taoist teaching agreed with what I had learned through the post-celestial xing (mind knowledge).

 

There came a point where I hit a wall. I had an incredibly deep understanding that I could only continue to develop horizontally, but could no longer develop vertically, with mental pursuits.

 

Thus I sought out and found a master. I am no longer taught with words, but through energy experiences based on my diligence in cultivation. If I only cultivate my energy at certain levels, I do not change. If I attach to what the energy should feel like, I do not change. If I maintain mental awareness of what my body experiences in energy work, my mind does not change. When I surrender the attachments that fix my mind in place, I am able to dissolve what holds my mind back and allow the energy to flow freely throughout. When I do this, everything I think I know is surrendered and my very mind-self changes. As it does, my heart and mind (intricately connected to the rest of my body), are empty yet full, separate but one. They flow with my whole body, as I cultivate precelestial xing and ming and bring them ever closer together. As I surrender expectation, my entire identity changes, and I am blessed to sometimes completely fall into incredible states of awareness. All of this is possible because I am doing the work with emptiness, and because of my emptiness my master is able to gently assist me in settling into a new awareness, with "a word or half a sentence", just enough to make an adjustment without my mind getting in the way. Without my master I would not be able to navigate.

 

So it is not about having a diploma or credentials. It is about doing the subtle work that cannot be understood or fathomed with the mind, which requires a guide, and requires surrendering.

 

I do and experience everything you're describing here without a human teacher. I am able to identify with your words and feel what you say is relevant and reflects my own experience. And yet I haven't had human teachers in the way you likely mean it. Of course it's impossible not to have human teachers at all once you are born to a mother and father. But I think I know what you mean by getting a guide.

 

Almost right away I naturally recognized the distinction between pre- and post-heavenly mental state to be arbitrary and illusory.

 

You shouldn't presume upon different people's spiritual station. I recommend you drop that bad habit and stop lecturing ChiDragon. You don't know his situation. You're assuming he's a copy of the past you. Don't assume that.

Edited July 11, 2014 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

ChiDragon,

 

It's pretty rare to have someone with the knowledge of Chinese translate for us into English. Even if it wasn't rare, I think it would still be valuable. So I want to thank you for your efforts here. I've done some translations in the past (Russian to English), and it was a major pain for me to translate. I won't be surprised if it took quite a bit of effort to translate all that.

 

I have two questions for you.

 

1st, pardon my ignorance, but where are you translating from? Can you please identify the text you are translating? This might be obvious to everyone but me, but I do not know what kind of text you are translating.

 

This brings me to my 2nd question. It appears that the main thing the text you are translating suggests is balance. Namely, the text suggests that our cultivtion should be balanced between mind and body, and it should not be too lopsided toward the mind or too lopsided toward the body. This advice is fairly common and I am not surprised to hear it. So in light of this advice, can you please comment on the following passage from Zhuangzi:

 

Translation by Burton Watson:

 

The region of Ching-shih in Sung is fine for growing catalpas, cypresses, and mulberries. But those that are more than one or two arm-lengths around are cut down for people who want monkey perches; those that are three or four spans around are cut down for the ridgepoles of tall roofs;", and those that are seven or eight spans are cut down for the families of nobles or rich merchants who want side boards for coffins. So they never get to live out the years Heaven gave them, but are cut down in mid-journey by axes. This is the danger of being usable. In the Chieh sacrifice," oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles cannot be offered to the river. This is something all the shamans know, and hence they consider them inauspicious creatures. But the Holy Man for the same reason considers them highly auspicious.

 

There's Crippled Shu - chin stuck down in his navel, shoulders up above his head, pigtail pointing at the sky, his five organs on the top, his two thighs pressing his ribs. By sewing and washing, he gets enough to fill his mouth; by handling a winnow and sifting out the good grain, he makes enough to feed ten people. When the authorities call out the troops, he stands in the crowd waving good-by; when they get up a big work party, they pass him over because he's a chronic invalid. And when they are doling out grain to the ailing, he gets three big measures and ten bundles of firewood. With a crippled body, he's still able to look after himself and finish out the years Heaven gave him. How much better, then, if he had crippled virtue!

 

 

 

And a translation by James Legge:

 

In Song there is the district of Jing-shi, in which catalpae, cypresses, and mulberry trees grow well. Those of them which are a span or two or rather more in circumference are cut down by persons who want to make posts to which to tie their monkeys; those which are three or four spans round are cut down by persons who want beams forr their lofty and famous houses; and those of seven or eight spans are cut down by noblemen and rich merchants who want single planks for the sides of their coffins. The trees in consequence do not complete their natural term of life, and come to a premature end in the middle of their growth under the axe and bill;-- this is the evil that befalls them from their supplying good timber.
In the same way the Jie (book) specifies oxen that have white foreheads, pigs that have turned-up snouts, and men that are suffering from piles, and forbids their being sacrificed to the Ho. The wizards know them by these peculiarities and consider them to be inauspicious, but spirit-like men consider them on this account to be very fortunate.

 

There was the deformed object Shu. His chin seemed to hide his navel; his shoulders were higher than the crown of his head; the knot of his hair pointed to the sky; his five viscera were all compressed into the upper part of his body, and his two thigh bones were like ribs. By sharpening needles and washing clothes he was able to make a living. By sifting rice and cleaning it, he was able to support ten individuals. When the government was calling out soldiers, this poor Shu would bare his arms among the others; when it had any great service to be undertaken, because of his constant ailments, none of the work was assigned to him; when it was giving out grain to the sick, he received three kung, and ten bundles of firewood. If this poor man, so deformed in body, was still able to support himself, and complete his term of life, how much more may they do so, whose deformity is that of their faculties!

 

So, I think Zhuangzi is saying here that anything can be seen as advantageous or disadvantageous depending on context, and that we should be careful with the ordinary, conventional values because they may go against the grain of the Dao, and as a result shorten one's lifespan. So in this specific case, a condition of the body that would ordinarily be regarded as pitiful is given as a virtuous example.

 

Can you please comment on this, ChiDragon?

Edited July 11, 2014 by goldisheavy

[doc benway]

Storied lineages do not impress me. Deep knowledge does. And how do I know what that is? I know it for myself by direct intimate contact.

 

Are you willing to elaborate on your direct intimate contact of deep knowledge goldisheavy?

I'm genuinely interested.

[Daeluin]

Are you willing to elaborate on your direct intimate contact of deep knowledge goldisheavy?

I'm genuinely interested.

 

My sense of precelestial and postcelestial xing, is that when one achieves a matured state of precelestial xing, one holds the knowledge of heaven. One might pick up a violin and play as though they were a master, yet with no conditioned knowledge. This is what mastery is all about.

 

I think it is clear when either ourselves our others are caught in repetitive cycles that are trapping us from evolved growth, and when these cycles are self-enforcing. At such times it is hard to trust ourselves to break through on our own, and the help of a master allows us to surrender and trust something external.

 

However, in the end, a master is only made by one's own effort and work.

 

I'd like to hear goldisheavy's answer to this as well.... but I'm interested in giving space to ChiDragon to answer goldisheavy's questions.

 

Edit: yes, I'm a hypocrite and attempting at control.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Daeluin

[goldisheavy]

Are you willing to elaborate on your direct intimate contact of deep knowledge goldisheavy?

I'm genuinely interested.

 

I prefer more specific questions. On the other hand, this wide-open question implies I can say just about anything.

 

"Intimate contact of deep knowledge" is just a manner of speaking. So let's look for some hidden flaws there.

 

"Intimate" implies we are sometimes estranged from the primordial knowledge. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Contact" implies there are two things touching. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Deep" implies there is something behind the suggestive appearances. This is a flaw if taken literally.

 

"Knowledge" implies a possibility of ignorance as a distinct state of mind in its own right. This is a flaw if taken literally.

[ChiDragon]

Posted by goldisheavy....

This brings me to my 2nd question. It appears that the main thing the text you are translating suggests is balance. Namely, the text suggests that our cultivtion should be balanced between mind and body, and it should not be too lopsided toward the mind or too lopsided toward the body. This advice is fairly common and I am not surprised to hear it. So in light of this advice, can you please comment on the following passage from Zhuangzi:

 

The region of Ching-shih in Sung is fine for growing catalpas, cypresses, and mulberries. But those that are more than one or two arm-lengths around are cut down for people who want monkey perches; those that are three or four spans around are cut down for the ridgepoles of tall roofs;", and those that are seven or eight spans are cut down for the families of nobles or rich merchants who want side boards for coffins. So they never get to live out the years Heaven gave them, but are cut down in mid-journey by axes. This is the danger of being usable. In the Chieh sacrifice," oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles cannot be offered to the river. This is something all the shamans know, and hence they consider them inauspicious creatures. But the Holy Man for the same reason considers them highly auspicious.

 

 

This is how Zhuang Zi looks at the good and bad sides of the world.

The story about the threes are being perfectly grown which meet the potential requirement for the humans to build houses and whatever. Unfortunately, they have to be cut down by human because of their perfectness. Thus it had shorten their lifespan. .

The oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles were considered to be abnormal out of the ordinary. Their abnormalities were automatically classified them as inauspicious which is not even good enough to make sacrificial offer to the deity of the river. Fortunately, their lives were spared from the sacrifice due to their abnormalities.

 

 

>

>>There's Crippled Shu - chin stuck down in his navel, shoulders up above his head, pigtail pointing at the sky, his five organs on the top, his two thighs pressing his ribs. By sewing and washing, he gets enough to fill his mouth; by handling a winnow and sifting out the good grain, he makes enough to feed ten people. When the authorities call out the troops, he stands in the crowd waving good-by; when they get up a big work party, they pass him over because he's a chronic invalid. And when they are doling out grain to the ailing, he gets three big measures and ten bundles of firewood. With a crippled body, he's still able to look after himself and finish out the years Heaven gave him. How much better, then, if he had crippled virtue!

The story here is about a man who lives a peaceful life because of being crippled; while all the other strong and healthier men had to go to the battlefield and sacrifice their lives in their early ages.

 

In these metaphors which indicate that Zhuang Zi likes to look at the good side of an ugly story. He likes to make the negative to become positive. Indeed, he is an extraordinary man with a point of view which beyond the expectation of the ordinary.

 

Edited July 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

It's pretty rare to have someone with the knowledge of Chinese translate for us into English. Even if it wasn't rare, I think it would still be valuable. So I want to thank you for your efforts here. I've done some translations in the past (Russian to English), and it was a major pain for me to translate. I won't be surprised if it took quite a bit of effort to translate all that.

 

I have two questions for you.

 

1st, pardon my ignorance, but where are you translating from? Can you please identify the text you are translating? This might be obvious to everyone but me, but I do not know what kind of text you are translating.

 

goldisheavy.....

Thank you for the kind words. You are gentleman and a scholar. Indeed, you are a true Taoist in my book.

 

What I am translating is from a Chinese text about the "Important thoughts of Taoists and Canon".

The text explains the layout of the principles which are commonly practiced by the Chinese Taoists.

 

Dual Cultivation of Xing(mind) and Ming(body).

The cultivation of Xing and Ming maybe practiced separately or both or with different weight depends on which is the lack of in each individual.

 

Ref: DXCM

 

 

@GrandmasterP....

I'm also answering your question in post #13

[Daeluin]

This brings me to my 2nd question. It appears that the main thing the text you are translating suggests is balance. Namely, the text suggests that our cultivtion should be balanced between mind and body, and it should not be too lopsided toward the mind or too lopsided toward the body. This advice is fairly common and I am not surprised to hear it. So in light of this advice, can you please comment on the following passage from Zhuangzi:

 

ChiDragon, I am also curious to hear your reflection on the Zhuangzi passage as it relates to the text you have translated.

 

Regarding this text, can you let us know please if it is something written by a respected author, or if it has some provenance through history, or is it something more contemporary? I believe the lesson it shares makes it worthy all on its own, but it would be nice to know how these words may have influenced others through time.

 

Also, I thank you for the time you have taken to make this translation for us. It is very kind and generous of you to expose us to these otherwise hidden reflections on xing and ming.

 

I know you said earlier you had a point to make.... is the point to be found in the translations, or are you still preparing something more for us?

[Marblehead]

I know you said earlier you had a point to make.... is the point to be found in the translations, or are you still preparing something more for us?

That is going to be a surprise. ChiDragon sometimes even surprises himself.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, I am also curious to hear your reflection on the Zhuangzi passage as it relates to the text you have translated.

 

Regarding this text, can you let us know please if it is something written by a respected author, or if it has some provenance through history, or is it something more contemporary? I believe the lesson it shares makes it worthy all on its own, but it would be nice to know how these words may have influenced others through time.

 

Also, I thank you for the time you have taken to make this translation for us. It is very kind and generous of you to expose us to these otherwise hidden reflections on xing and ming.

 

I know you said earlier you had a point to make.... is the point to be found in the translations, or are you still preparing something more for us?

 

Good morning......

You must have been reading my mind. I just woke up and told myself I am going to tell the folks that there will be a big surprise at the end of this thread. Before I have done so and there you are popped up with the question.....

 

I am also curious to hear your reflection on the Zhuangzi passage as it relates to the text you have translated.

 

The Zhuang Zi passage tells us do not blind oneself by only looking at the bad side of the story; because there is a good side to it also. It there was a loss, then, there is something to be gained. I would add this to my collection as part of the Cultivation of the Mind.

 

Regarding this text, it has some provenance through history. The principles were originated from a very famous high Taoist Priest, Wang Chong Yang(王重陽)(1112-1170), who is the founder of the "All True Tao Sect(全真教)".

 

Yes, these words may have influenced others through time and I believe the Chinese Taoists are still practicing in the mountains.

 

Thank you for your kind words. Btw You are probably not aware of; but the point is to be found in the translations and the interaction of the members in the thread as well. Yes, I'm still preparing something more for us all.

 

At the end of this thread, there will be a big surprise for everybody....

Edited July 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

The Zhuang Zi passage tells us do not blind oneself by only looking at the bad side of the story; because there is a good side to it also. It there was a loss, then, there is something to be gained. I would add this to my collection as part of the Cultivation of the Mind.

 

I hear you saying the values you take from the Zhuangzi story are related to the Xing/Ming text because they are related to the cultivation of the mind. But the Xing/Ming text seems more about the balancing of the Xing and Ming, and this balance seems to me, to be the root of goldisheavy's question. I am interested in hearing your perspective on this in particular.

 

Also, I too have a perspective on both the Zhuangzi story and how it relates to the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming. Are you open to alternate perspectives on this? I know you invited discussion related to this, but if you are attached to there being only one interpretation, I don't want my offering of an alternate interpretation to create disharmony between us.

 

Regarding this text, it has some provenance through history. The principles were originated from a very famous high Taoist Priest, Wang Chong Yang(王重陽)(1112-1170), who is the founder of the "All True Tao Sect(全真教)".

 

Can you please clarify one part of this? You say the principles originated from Wang Chong Yang, but was the text itself written by Wang Chong Yang?

 

At the end of this thread, there will be a big surprise for everybody....

 

I do not look into the future, and am constantly surprised and thrilled by every moment!

[ChiDragon]

I hear you saying the values you take from the Zhuangzi story are related to the Xing/Ming text because they are related to the cultivation of the mind. But the Xing/Ming text seems more about the balancing of the Xing and Ming, and this balance seems to me, to be the root of goldisheavy's question. I am interested in hearing your perspective on this in particular.

 

Also, I too have a perspective on both the Zhuangzi story and how it relates to the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming. Are you open to alternate perspectives on this? I know you invited discussion related to this, but if you are attached to there being only one interpretation, I don't want my offering of an alternate interpretation to create disharmony between us.

 

Can you please clarify one part of this? You say the principles originated from Wang Chong Yang, but was the text itself written by Wang Chong Yang?

 

I do not look into the future, and am constantly surprised and thrilled by every moment!

 

I believe some place in the translated document says the cultivation of Xing/Ming may be out of balance. If so, then one has to be cultivated more than the other. For instance, if the body is already in good health but the mind is weak, then the cultivation of the mind would have to be practiced more intensive and the ming part may be paid less attention to. Eventually, the xing/ming will be in balance.

 

I think what is puzzling you, right now, is because I am exposing the document as the primary concern for now. The subtle details are need to be discussed separately to put into application later.

 

Please feel free to discuss anything in the open. My interpretation is only a baseline as a reference guide. All ideas are subject to change within reasons. All the things we'd learnt may have errors or outdated, we are always in the process of leaning and correction. We must leave room for update and correction in our minds. That is what the cultivation of the mind is all about. However, learning and absorbing knowledge is only part of the cultivation of the mind but there are a lot more to it than that.

 

In the earlier posts, we had just learned one lessen in the cultivation of the mind. It demonstrated how one's mind has changed and the attitude toward each other. The best part of it was one has the courage to admit and realized oneself was at fault. The thinking was changed completely and the mind has been freed with one less contaminant as what has been called for in the DCXM. Anyway, whatever was bothering in one's mind is considered to be a contaminant. To eliminate the contaminant is by going through the process in the cultivation of the mind.

 

Holding one's emotion without expressing anger is part of the Cultivation of the Mind. Perhaps, you might want to take a look at my signature and tell me what you see.

 

I believe that the principles originated from Wang Chong Yang was written by him and followed by his disciples and the disciples passed along through history.

 

You will be constantly surprised and thrilled by every moment!......

Edited July 12, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

Hmmm... if the point is the discussion, then I'd like to discuss after all the material is presented.

 

Also, since goldisheavy directed that question to you, I'd like to let them have a chance to reply to your answer. If goldisheavy opens up the question to others I'd be happy to offer my perspective.

 

The pressure of anger should not be held, that will create blockages and health issues. The pressure of anger should be dissolved. The cause of the anger should be investigated and also dissolved.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Daeluin