Cultivation of the Mind

[goldisheavy]

Back to the cultivation of the mind....

 

The initial purification is to reset the mind to a zero-state which is the state of emptiness. However, I would like to refer it as the mind in a vacuous state to distinguish from Buddhism. Since the mind is able to understand things, it was fed with many fallacies and fiction stories but less facts. A Taoist may consider the fallacies and fictions are contaminants to the mind. These contaminants must be eliminated as part of the process in the purification of the mind. It is a mantle cultivation to sort out the facts among the false information. The prerequisite is to get oneself educated with logical facts and scientific knowledge. One should be able to isolate the facts from the fallacies, instantly, as soon they are involve in a decision making. Knowing the facts and defending the truth with logical reasoning are invincible. With all that said, the mind must be purified and free of all contaminants by retaining all the known facts. Therefore, to a Taoist, the purified mind is considered to be a "true mind".

 

Surprise.....!!!

 

Scientific knowledge rests on many false assumptions about reality. You'll not be very Taoist by relying on the scientific dogma of this age to do your thinking for you.

[ChiDragon]

Scientific knowledge rests on many false assumptions about reality. You'll not be very Taoist by relying on the scientific dogma of this age to do your thinking for you.

 

I do aware most members here do not believe in scientific knowledge. However, there are some peoppe with engineer background may take that into consideration. You sound like that a Taoist should not reply his/her thoughts on modern science. How about relying on some knowledge which already had been proven with the scientific method....???

 

Do you think we should believe in something to keep the mind going....??? If we are trying not to believe anything we hear or read, then we shouldn't be here talking to each other in exchanging ideas.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1. Yeah, looking over the discussion on 48 I see there are many different interpretations of these two lines.

2. Edit to ChiDragon's post below: And hence I prefer reading the translation I quoted, as the translator is a teaching Master. Additionally he is a teacher of one our own members, who has posted extensively and greatly expanded on the inner alchemical perspective and definitions of the teachings found within the quoted book. I think it safe to assume experience with the mysterious pass is transmitted in this translation.

 

3. But no matter ChiDragon, translate it how you like. The concept remains intact - when conceptual attachments, however "proven" they may be, rule over the mind of tao, the human mind is the master. When even proven conceptual attachments do not rule over the mind of tao, mysterious happenings unfold and one trusts and connects with the tao in a full embrace. The seed of the human mind remains useful, but does not control the Sage.

 

1. Interpretation is different from translation. Especially in Chinese classics. Anybody can translate the characters but not the intended meanings. Without an accurate interpretation prior to the translation, the final wording better to be logical and flawless.

 

The pursuit of learning is to increase knowledge day after day.

The pursuit of Tao is to decrease knowledge day after day.

 

I have no problem with the first line. However, the logic in the second line doesn't seem to be fallen in place. It seems to me it is saying: One is going after Tao and become more and more stupid everyday. In that case, I do not want to participate in the pursuit of Tao. Do you.....???

 

2. It is fine to learn from a teaching Master; but I would question the logic of his thoughts when in doubt. Unless, you took everything for granted.

 

3. I do not do translation is because how I like it. I do it with a logical mind and handle thinking matters within reasons.

 

Sorry, I don't know what the mind of tao is.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Scientific knowledge rests on many false assumptions about reality. You'll not be very Taoist by relying on the scientific dogma of this age to do your thinking for you.

I actually agree with this and that is why I have said before that we should question everything before accepting it as a truth.

[Daeluin]

1. Interpretation is different from translation. Especially in Chinese classics. Anybody can translate the characters but not the intended meanings. Without an accurate interpretation prior to the translation, the final wording better to be logical and flawless.

 

The pursuit of learning is to increase knowledge day after day.

The pursuit of Tao is to decrease knowledge day after day.

 

I have no problem with the first line. However, the logic in the second line doesn't seem to be fallen in place. It seems to me it is saying: One is going after Tao and become more and more stupid everyday. In that case, I do not want to participate in the pursuit of Tao. Do you.....???

 

It is merely distinguishing between the post-celestial xing and pre-celestial xing.

 

Imagine that your awareness has the potential to expand to the very edges of the universe. But... if you limit your senses with some sort of construct, you trap your otherwise infinite awareness within the confines of your construct. Take the eyes - they can't "see" to the edge of the universe.

 

Take a window. When particles of dust and dirt attach to it, the clarity is diminished. Perhaps we draw a grid on the window to help define a perspective outside the window. It still casts a shadow and blocks the light.

 

Pre-celestial xing is cultivated by wiping away the dirt attaching to our mind. Even the refined knowledge of science and laws which we place in a grid in the window of our mind, shape how the light of heavenly knowledge is perceived by the mind. Heavenly knowledge is not black and white, it is ever changing and incredibly subtle. Even the most precise and "proven" grid will not show the ever changing and unique truth of the present moment.

 

We cultivate pre-celestial xing by following our intuition, and increasingly freeing our intuition from the trappings and control of our attached understandings.

 

2. It is fine to learn from a teaching Master; but I would question the logic of his thoughts when in doubt. Unless, you took everything for granted.

 

Good point. A master is just like some extra refined scientific knowledge. It may greatly serve one in aligning to the way, but how can one master one's self if one becomes attached to one's master? One must ultimately let go of all except one's connection to the tao.

 

3. I do not do translation is because how I like it. I do it with a logical mind and handle thinking matters within reasons.

 

Sorry, I don't know what the mind of tao is.

 

The mind of tao is the pre-celestial xing, the human mind is the post-celestial xing.

 

Oddly enough, when I cast the I-Ching this morning it led me to a wonderful explanation of the human mind and the mind of tao. Also - casting the I-Ching is a method of increasing one's intuition.

 

 

Taoist I Ching

Liu I-ming

tl Thomas Cleary

31

lake

mountain

Sensitivity

Sensitivity is developmental. It is beneficial to be correct. Marriage brings good fortune.

EXPLANATION

Sensitivity means feeling and influence. As for the qualities of the hexagram, above is lake, joyous, and below is mountain, still: Firmness rest within, flexibility rests without; stillness is the substance of joyfullness, joyfulness is the function of stillness. This hexagram has the meaning of yin and yang responding to each other, so it is called sensitivity.

This hexagram represents harmonization of yin and yang; it follows on the previous hexagram pitfalls. In pitfalls, yin traps yang - yang is not strong and yin is not docile; yin and yang do not combine. So this work of harmonization is indispensable. But harmonization of yin and yang calls for spontaneity, not force. Spontaneity is nonconscious sensitivity, while force is conscious sensitivity. With nonconscious sensitivity, yin and yang harmonize with each other, without any insensitivity. With conscious sensitivity, yin and yang are individually separate, and sensitivity has limits.

Therefore in sensitivity there is a path of development. But though the path of sensitivity is developmental, there is right and wrong nonconsciousness, and there is right and wrong consciousness. You cannot say that the nonconciousness of a dead tree or cold ashes [see Awakening to the Tao] is the developmental path of sensitivity; dead trees and cold ashes are purely negative, with no positivity - how could that be called sensitivity? "Sensitivity" means the subtle communion of yin and yang, as in the image of the hexagram, wherein a boy and girl are together, each unminding, till the yin and yang energies are full, and their feelings stir and they naturally become sensitive to each other.

This is unaffected sensitivity - how can you take ignorant mindlessness to be sensitivity? Nonconsciousness, or mindlessness, in the proper sense of the term, means there is no human mentality; when there is no human mentality, there is the mind of Tao. The mind of Tao is a mind that is not minding. Minding means having the human mentality; when one has the human mentality, one lacks the mind of Tao. The mind of the human mentality is not the real mind.

The mind of Tao is real, the human mentality is artificial. When you use the artificial mind, sensing is inaccurate; yin and yang dichotomize. When you use the real mind, sensing is true; yin and yang commune. Whether yin senses and yang responds, or yang senses and yin responds, they are equally ruled by the mind of Tao, and sense correctly. When sensitivity is true, not sensing by mentality, what is there that cannot be sensed, what sensing is not potentially beneficial?

In terms of correct sensitivity, no one in the world compares to a chaste woman. The virtues of a woman are based on chastity and calm; not easily losing herself to others, she will wait for a good partner to have feeling. This is feeling not by the heart but by truth.

In the qualities of the hexagram, first there is stillness, after that joy; joy comes from stillness. When practitioners of the Tao harmonize yin and yang, causing yin and yang to communicate sensitively, if they can take the virtue of a chaste woman as their sensitivity, then whatever they sense will be right; tranquil and imperturbable yet sensitive and effective, sensitive and effective yet tranquil and imperturbable, they rest in the proper place. Whether they go along with things or reverse them, all is as they will, and they attain that good fortune.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

daeluin...
Sorry, I am loosing your sense of logic.

[Daeluin]

daeluin...

Sorry, I am loosing your sense of logic.

 

That's the spirit. Now work on losing your own.

 

On page one I quoted Liu Yiming's description of pre-celestial and post-celestial xing:

 

The main point concerning [xing] is that there are a [xing] consisting in what is bestowed by Heaven, and a [xing] consisting in one's character.

 

...

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is innate knowledge and innate capacity. It is what "possesses all principles and responds to the ten thousand pursuits."

 

The [xing] that is one's Character

can be worthy or foolish, wise or inept.

 

...

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is true, and the [xing] that is one's character is false.

 

...

 

What is true is the precelestial. What is false is the postcelestial. The precelestial is outside Yin and Yang, the postcelestial is within Yin and Yang.

Therefore true and false are not the same, and in [xing] and [ming] there are differences.

 

If those who cultivate the Tao know how to cultivate the [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven, they can use it to transform the [xing] that is one's character.

 

Moreover, [xing] is generated from the Heart. The Heart is the dwelling of Spirit; if the Heart is luminous, the Spirit is clear; and if the Spirit is clear, one's [xing] is stable. Thus the creations and transformations operated by the [xing] given by the Tao pertain to one's Heart.

 

But in the end... pre-celestial xing would let you have a conversation with a frog. Post-celestial xing would only be able to function within the limits of its fixed understanding, and might not believe the frog could be communicated with. To me this is logical, but to you it may defy logic?

_{Zhuang zi, talking to a frog.}

[ChiDragon]

If one is starting to ask me to talk to a frog, then it is the most logical thing for me to do is to stop talking to the one.

[Daeluin]

Ah! We seemed to have reached a limit of your current post-celestial mind.

 

In the cultivation of the true mind, nothing is impossible.

 

The post-celestial mind gives structure and stability and protects us from our fears of losing these things. If we were to simply abandon all logic, we might have trouble meeting our needs, paying our bills, acquiring food, maintaining our sanity, etc.

 

But there is another way. If we cultivate simplicity and empty our lives of the chaos, cycles emerge. As we observe our momentum through these cycles, over time we learn to transcend them though harmonizing yin and yang. By placing our unwavering sincerity on maintaining the momentum of the balance between yin and yang, we gain stability within change. This one attachment precludes the necessity of all other constructs of understanding. Beyond all reasoning our needs will be provided for in mysterious ways, simply because we trust and flow through change.

 

Thus with gradualness we are able to open our minds and hearts, surrendering the attachments and releasing the fears, allowing our awareness to embrace to greater depths and with greater clarity - in the moment, without attachment, we see all as it is.

 

I'm happy to let you cultivate "your" mind in your own way.

But if you can't acknowledge something as basic as communicating with a frog, it is difficult for us to speak on the dual cultivation of xing and ming.

[Marblehead]

If one is starting to ask me to talk to a frog, then it is the most logical thing for me to do is to stop talking to the one.

I talk to the frogs in my ponds all the time. Luckily none of them has spoken back to me except to say "Croak."

[Marblehead]

In the cultivation of the true mind, nothing is impossible.

That almost sounds like schizophrenia.

[Stosh]

I stopped talking to my cat , for some reason she just keeps saying , Kill Kill Kill or ZZZZZ .

[goldisheavy]

I do aware most members here do not believe in scientific knowledge. However, there are some peoppe with engineer background may take that into consideration. You sound like that a Taoist should not reply his/her thoughts on modern science. How about relying on some knowledge which already had been proven with the scientific method....???

 

The scientific method takes for granted these 7 assumptions (I added two at the end, the original post only had 5):

 

the universe is rational - can be determined by systems of logic

 

the universe is accessible - we have the means to interact with the universe

 

the universe is contingent - relationships of cause and effect operate within eternally stable parameters

 

the universe is objective - exists independent and indifferent to sense perception

 

the universe is unified - nothing can be "separated" from the universe

 

strong emphasis on repeatability - all phenomena worth studying and understanding are repeatable and most events are repeatable; the way life unfolds is not just a series of completely unique events

 

mutual collaboration approximates objective phenomenal reality - when people discuss their experiences with each other and repeat expiriments in the various labs worldwide, we assume we're zeroing in on the objective domain by so doing.

 

A Taoist should question all such assumptions. All of the above assumptions lead to a rigid personal experience full of desperation and fear where clinging to the human body is the only sane way to honor life and where fighting for material possessions is completely rational because the world of enjoyment is considered to be made of matter the same as the body that enjoys, and so it makes sense to struggle to come into possession of huge mansions, large tracts of land, many cars, airplanes, helicopters and other expensive toys, and so on. Once the person acquired a large amounts of the above, they then strive to expand the holdings and to prevent their loss. This creates anxiety inside the person and strife outside the person, and it's all completely rational given the scientific assumptions about reality.

 

Also a Taoist should make a distinction between personal convictions and proofs. If I am personally convinced that something is true that isn't the same as the truth of that same something having been proven to me. The difference should be obvious. Convictions can change, but truth, once proven, cannot change. Also, we have voluntary control over our convictions, but no voluntary control over what is true.

 

Do you think we should believe in something to keep the mind going....???

 

I think that yes, we should believe in something. But we should be careful in what we choose to believe. We should be aware that all beliefs have personal consequences and we should know what those consequences are.

 

 

If we are trying not to believe anything we hear or read, then we shouldn't be here talking to each other in exchanging ideas.

 

And why do you think so many Daoists sages have spent years or even decades in isolation?

Edited July 19, 2014 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

If we were to simply abandon all logic, we might have trouble meeting our needs, paying our bills, acquiring food, maintaining our sanity, etc.

 

1. Many Daoist sages were regarded as insane, and the polite word for it is "eccentric."

 

2. Blind anti-intellectualism is indeed the wrong way to approach what you call the pre-celestial mind.

[ChiDragon]

mutual collaboration approximates objective phenomenal reality - when people discuss their experiences with each other and repeat expiriments in the various labs worldwide, we assume we're zeroing in on the objective domain by so doing.

 

A Taoist should question all such assumptions. All of the above assumptions lead to a rigid personal experience full of desperation and fear where clinging to the human body is the only sane way to honor life and where fighting for material possessions is completely rational because the world of enjoyment is considered to be made of matter the same as the body that enjoys, and so it makes sense to struggle to come into possession of huge mansions, large tracts of land, many cars, airplanes, helicopters and other expensive toys, and so on. Once the person acquired a large amounts of the above, they then strive to expand the holdings and to prevent their loss. This creates anxiety inside the person and strife outside the person, and it's all completely rational given the scientific assumptions about reality.

 

Also a Taoist should make a distinction between personal convictions and proofs. If I am personally convinced that something is true that isn't the same as the truth of that same something having been proven to me. The difference should be obvious. Convictions can change, but truth, once proven, cannot change. Also, we have voluntary control over our convictions, but no voluntary control over what is true.

 

I think that yes, we should believe in something. But we should be careful in what we choose to believe. We should be aware that all beliefs have personal consequences and we should know what those consequences are.

 

And why do you think so many Daoists sages have spent years or even decades in isolation?

 

Thank you for adding the last two items. Adding knowledge is a constant must in the cultivation of the mind. Indeed, I rather make scientific assumptions other than the wild ones. Based on your words, It seems to me that you have a different assumption about a True Chinese Taoist.

 

A Taoist should question all such assumptions. All of the above assumptions lead to a rigid personal experience full of desperation and fear where clinging to the human body is the only sane way to honor life and where fighting for material possessions is completely rational because the world of enjoyment is considered to be made of matter the same as the body that enjoys"

 

A Taoist will consider all matters to purify the mind is a must. Anyway, a Taoist does not honor life with the luxuries per your prescription. The prescription for a true Taoist is to honor life with good health and longevity. Even to be an immortal if one went beyond the imaginary. Also a Taoist should make a distinction between personal convictions and proofs. Btw I think a Taoist has already considered that in the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming(DCXM).

 

And why do you think so many Daoists sages have spent years or even decades in isolation?

 

The Taoist sages have spent years in isolation were simply to integrate themselves with nature as One. To live in a state of tranquility and breathing the fresh air in the mountains for a better health toward longevity. Also, to pursuit the principles of Tao and lessen the desires, day by day, for a materialistic world as the mortals would strive for.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[goldisheavy]

The Taoist sages have spent years in isolation were simply to integrate themselves with nature as One.

 

This is not how I understand it. When Daoists live in isolation they gradually learn to ignore heat, cold, hunger, sleepiness, etc. This isn't merging with nature. Daoists learn to transcend the patterns of experience we regard as "nature." While they don't resist instincts too extremely, they do resist them as part of their training. For example, many sages have been known to live in the winter without fire in their huts. That means they were not becoming one with nature. From our Western perspective to acknowledge nature is to also acknowledge your natural weakness, such as being cold in the winter, and then start a fire to warm up. So we don't think it's unnatural to be cold in the Winter, in other words. And yet Daoists cultivated a condition where they were no longer cold in the Winter.

 

Or you can say they were becoming one with their inernal natures, which is not the same as the nature we consider external to ourselves.

 

So Daoists realize they have, internally to themselves, fire, and coolness, moisture, and so on, and they didn't need the external nature to supply these for comfort.

[Daeluin]

The region of Ching-shih in Sung is fine for growing catalpas, cypresses, and mulberries. But those that are more than one or two arm-lengths around are cut down for people who want monkey perches; those that are three or four spans around are cut down for the ridgepoles of tall roofs;", and those that are seven or eight spans are cut down for the families of nobles or rich merchants who want side boards for coffins. So they never get to live out the years Heaven gave them, but are cut down in mid-journey by axes. This is the danger of being usable. In the Chieh sacrifice," oxen with white foreheads, pigs with turned-up snouts, and men with piles cannot be offered to the river. This is something all the shamans know, and hence they consider them inauspicious creatures. But the Holy Man for the same reason considers them highly auspicious.

 

When the the heart-mind and body-breath are one, such a person has reached a level of attainment that others might place a value upon. At this stage it is very likely one has unlocked various siddhis. For example... if the mind is truly unattached to it's knowledge based perspective, it may freely "see" in all directions instead of just through the eyes. Let alone talking to frogs.

 

In any case, Zhuangzi shares will us the principle of how to balance ourselves and our attainments in the human world, by acting in such a way as to harmonize with others. If others attach too much value to us, we might find ourselves in the position of being controlled by those who see use in the values we display.

 

Thus, if we wish to live out our full lives, we need cultivate appearance in alignment with the expectation of others. By not appearing to have value, others will not be interested in constricting our freedoms. At the same time, the sage may radiate highly refined energy, and do workings on subtle levels, and accomplish much change in the world. This accomplishment appears to most others as having no source, and others may think they accomplished the change on their own, without desiring to seek a source and gain wealth through the source. The fewer attachments others make upon the sage, the more freedom the sage has with which to evolve and carry out their destiny to its fullest extent.

 

All by means of harmonizing yin and yang, in every situation, inside and out.

[goldisheavy]

It's important to understand what the various people mean by "nature" and "natural." In the most common sense it means "commonly experienced." So let me give some examples here.

 

If the wind blows east to west, and the grass bends with the wind to the west, that is something that's commonly experienced. This then is called "natural." If the grass were to bend eastward, that would be very rare, and some would even say impossible, and would be regarded as "not natural" or "unnatural" or "supernatural" or "paranormal" and so on, and these words have different subtle shades of meaning unique to each one.

 

Again, if the river flows in the same one direction when you check it on various days of the week over the course of some years, that's considered natural because it is what's expected, and it is commonly experienced. Then if while you were looking at the river it were to suddenly reverse its flow for 10 secibds or five minutes, that would be considered unnatural, supernatural, paranormal and so on.

 

Now, bringing this closer to home, is adepthood commonly experienced? No. Is everyone expected to be a Daoist master? No. So in a sense, being a Daoist adept is not natural at all. It goes against expectations and it goes against the common patterns of experience.

 

This is why it's important to understand that Daoists, while certainly always learning from nature, are not actually naturalists. It's not a goal of any Daoist adept to become "one with nature." Daoists routinely do uncommon things and behave and think in ways that would be regarded as insane by the current majority right now in this apparent Earth. And in fact, many of the Daoist adepts were regarded as insane even in their own time. This is because they constantly subverted expectations. So in this way they were not natural at all.

 

And yet there is a sense in which what the Daoist sages do is natural, but it's not important to talk about it because people are very confused about the above. When no one is confused about the above, we can start to talk about the sense in which the Daoist sages do return to nature, but until that happens, we should stress that Daoists transcended nature rather than unite with it.

Edited July 20, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Daeluin]

The way of transcending nature is by uniting with it, and in the very heart of it, harmonizing its duality, so that one may unite even deeper with it. To stress the transcendence, without the process of unification, will lead others to oppose nature rather than harmonizing with it. But opposing nature is to be ruled by nature.

 

The only thing taoists do is harmonize polarity, through following their own living and unfolding path through time. We each have a unique "shape", which presses into the tao in a special way. When we live in harmony we melt into the flow of all around us seamlessly, instead of pushing and shoving our way around. This is simple enough for all to practice, and naturally leads beyond the trap of the modern mind.

 

It is not the grass bending eastward that is unnatural, it is the modern mind's unwillingness to adapt to change that is unnatural. In order to harmonize, the mind must be willing to adapt to change. I hear you say 'It is not the goal of any Daoist Adept to become "one with nature"', and I would rather stress the opposite. It is only when we allow our selves to flow like water, merging with everything, to the very ends of the universe, that we are able to go beyond the universe. It is only when we become one with all that we may go beyond all.

 

True Daoist Adepts don't make waves - I wouldn't believe everything recorded about those with abilities and strange behaviors... they likely missed the memo, IMHO. Causing reactions in people that don't ultimately become dissolved, is only going to create karma.

[ChiDragon]

This is not how I understand it. When Daoists live in isolation they gradually learn to ignore heat, cold, hunger, sleepiness, etc. This isn't merging with nature. Daoists learn to transcend the patterns of experience we regard as "nature." While they don't resist instincts too extremely, they do resist them as part of their training. For example, many sages have been known to live in the winter without fire in their huts. That means they were not becoming one with nature. From our Western perspective to acknowledge nature is to also acknowledge your natural weakness, such as being cold in the winter, and then start a fire to warm up. So we don't think it's unnatural to be cold in the Winter, in other words. And yet Daoists cultivated a condition where they were no longer cold in the Winter.

 

Or you can say they were becoming one with their inernal natures, which is not the same as the nature we consider external to ourselves.

 

So Daoists realize they have, internally to themselves, fire, and coolness, moisture, and so on, and they didn't need the external nature to supply these for comfort.

 

Very humorous story. I have nothing to add....

[Daeluin]

This is not how I understand it. When Daoists live in isolation they gradually learn to ignore heat, cold, hunger, sleepiness, etc. This isn't merging with nature. Daoists learn to transcend the patterns of experience we regard as "nature." While they don't resist instincts too extremely, they do resist them as part of their training. For example, many sages have been known to live in the winter without fire in their huts. That means they were not becoming one with nature. From our Western perspective to acknowledge nature is to also acknowledge your natural weakness, such as being cold in the winter, and then start a fire to warm up. So we don't think it's unnatural to be cold in the Winter, in other words. And yet Daoists cultivated a condition where they were no longer cold in the Winter.

 

Or you can say they were becoming one with their inernal natures, which is not the same as the nature we consider external to ourselves.

 

So Daoists realize they have, internally to themselves, fire, and coolness, moisture, and so on, and they didn't need the external nature to supply these for comfort.

 

Oddly enough I am exploring plans to live in a non-insulated hut this winter, without heat. If things continue to flow that way.

 

And I consider this merging with nature, and leaving behind my non-adaptive conditioning. Do animals build huts and fires? Do they do some sorta special alchemy to keep themselves warm? It is simply natural for their bodies to adapt to the conditions they are in. It is unnatural for us to not do the same - but instead of following nature and letting our bodies adapt, we oppose nature by contriving of ways to escape nature.

 

This isn't transcending nature, this is creating polarity. The huts we live in are unnatural, and the empty spaces they contain are artificially separated from the natural web of life. Naturally the web of life seeps in and tries to fill these empty spaces, but they are so unnatural that what seeps in becomes unnatural as well. Thus we have problems like city rats, cockroaches, and other "parasites" that have found ways to thrive in our unnatural, unbalanced, artificial ecosystems.

 

I recall a story of a distant relative who became rather wealthy and went travelling.... as a hobo. He would ride a bike around Europe, all his necessities strapped to it, and sleep in culverts or in the woods. Police would sometimes find him and back off when they understood he was a wealthy traveller. And so he explored as a tourist with an inside perspective, and found it quite comfortable to do so. He would come back to the states and visit family, and found it uncomfortable to sleep in a bed. His sister would find him sleeping on the floor with the window open, in the middle of winter, quite comfortably.

 

When it gets cold in the winter, humans tend to heat things up, so they don't have to adapt to change. But that change serves a natural purpose... it brings us back into the deeper parts of our selves. This is where we find great strength and healing, and if we give it time we may find our bodies naturally learn to adapt to the cold. The winter is when we return to ourselves to hone in on our true depths and recenter ourselves there.

 

Modern people in their warm homes ignore their true depths. This is unnatural.

[Daeluin]

The Taoist sages have spent years in isolation were simply to integrate themselves with nature as One. To live in a state of tranquility and breathing the fresh air in the mountains for a better health toward longevity. Also, to pursuit the principles of Tao and lessen the desires, day by day, for a materialistic world as the mortals would strive for.

 

Complete isolation on the other hand is also unnatural. We are humans, and most of our destinies lie in human paths. It can be helpful to reintegrate with nature for a period of time, and so get to the root of wholeness. But this isn't a selfish pursuit, and if we truly follow our nature, we likely discover we have things to share with others, in one way or another.

 

Perhaps those who meditated in caves to the end of their days were destined to do so... or perhaps they missed out on an opportunity to create greater balance within society, and to share their awakening naturally.

[ChiDragon]

Complete isolation on the other hand is also unnatural. We are humans, and most of our destinies lie in human paths. It can be helpful to reintegrate with nature for a period of time, and so get to the root of wholeness. But this isn't a selfish pursuit, and if we truly follow our nature, we likely discover we have things to share with others, in one way or another.

 

Perhaps those who meditated in caves to the end of their days were destined to do so... or perhaps they missed out on an opportunity to create greater balance within society, and to share their awakening naturally.

 

Who are we, here, to set the rules for them.....???

[goldisheavy]

The way of transcending nature is by uniting with it, and in the very heart of it, harmonizing its duality, so that one may unite even deeper with it. To stress the transcendence, without the process of unification, will lead others to oppose nature rather than harmonizing with it. But opposing nature is to be ruled by nature.

Oppose? What do you call learning to tolerate cold, heat, hunger? And then what do you call learning to use the power of one's own mind to change one's state from cold to warm, from hunger to content, from heat to coolness, etc? This is opposing. And most Daoist adepts have been doing just this opposing that you oppose.

 

In fact, trying to slow down the flow of thought is also oppositional to nature. Thinking is natural for humans. To empty the mind of its concerns is completely unnatural and is oppositional. This is especially true of the concern for survival and bodily comfort.

It is not the grass bending eastward that is unnatural, it is the modern mind's unwillingness to adapt to change that is unnatural. In order to harmonize, the mind must be willing to adapt to change. I hear you say 'It is not the goal of any Daoist Adept to become "one with nature"', and I would rather stress the opposite. It is only when we allow our selves to flow like water, merging with everything, to the very ends of the universe, that we are able to go beyond the universe. It is only when we become one with all that we may go beyond all.

There is some truth in what you say. The mistake you make is that you fail to acknowledge oppositional aspect of most Daoists for one. And two, you don't realize that there are many ways to the same ultimate realization. Embracing the manifest appearance and relaxing into it only to go beyond it is definitely one possible consideration.

 

The Daoists have been doing a little bit of everything. That's because mind training has multiple aspects, relaxation and concentration being an important continuum. When one resists the sensation one is practicing concentration. When one roams about at will, doing whatever pleases oneles, one is practicing relaxation. One should know how to relax deeply and how to concentrate deeply. At the ultimate relaxation there is ultimate acceptance without prejudice. At the ultimate concentration there is the manifestation of any form into apparent existence as if real.

Edited July 21, 2014 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

 

Oddly enough I am exploring plans to live in a non-insulated hut this winter, without heat. If things continue to flow that way.

 

And I consider this merging with nature, and leaving behind my non-adaptive conditioning. Do animals build huts and fires?

Do fish fly through the clouds? The way each being dwells is unique to its nature if you go with a naturalist philosophy. It's normal and natural for human beings to seek warm shelter in the same way it's normal for a wolf to sleep without a heated shelter.

 

Otherwise you must regard humans as inherently unnatural, which would be strange indeed.

Do they do some sorta special alchemy to keep themselves warm? It is simply natural for their bodies to adapt to the conditions they are in. It is unnatural for us to not do the same - but instead of following nature and letting our bodies adapt, we oppose nature by contriving of ways to escape nature.

How do you know what the animals do? You don't share their subjective state. For all you know the inner life of the animals is much richer than you suspect. Observing the surface is not a way to learn anything.

This isn't transcending nature, this is creating polarity. The huts we live in are unnatural, and the empty spaces they contain are artificially separated from the natural web of life.

So are caves unnatural then? Because caves separate the space the same way huts do, but there are fewer of them around, so it's easier to just build an enclosure than to find a pre-existing one. But whether built by human hand or discovered as pre-existing, there is no functional difference between the two.