Cultivation of the Mind

[goldisheavy]

Why prehistoric? There are entire movements of people who have woken up to the idea that living in ways that are destructive to the environment is not sustainable for our species. The way our huts and fires tend to destroy forests and create desertification over time can be seen as parasitic activity, and there are many who would prefer to live in symbiosis with the planet which sustains them. There are many ways to do this and still live in huts and have heat, but they tend to be off the electrical, water and sewer grids. Many use their intelligence to design sophisticated water filtration systems using the lay of the land. Small scale hydro-electric is very efficient, and solar panels have become very cost effective as the devices they power require less and less electricity to run.

 

I'm just trying to use the right labels here. When I say "prehistoric" I am not passing a value judgment. I'm just trying to make a reference to the same type of living that other posters here referred to. I believe some of them said "Early Man" or something to that effect. And I chose "prehistoric" as a synonym never intending to pass judgement, but meaning to use it as just another word for "early."

 

So, there is no need to get defensive yet. Wait until I go on the offensive first.

 

I actually agree with many of the comments you made about our insane lifestyles and such.

 

Wearing long beards and shaving are personal grooming preferences and such things are superficial. Wearing a long beard doesn't make you a "Natural Man," lol, that's patently ridiculous. But there is nothing wrong with a long beard if that's what floats your boat aesthetically speaking. Personally I dislike how the beard itches and I dislike when my mustache gets into my mouth. But I also dislike how my skin hurts after shaving. So I shave once in a while because of this and because I don't give a rats ass how my facial hair looks. And this has nothing to do with being natural. It's my personal grooming preference, nothing more.

 

If people want to shave themselves, I don't have a problem with that.

 

However, our society does many things I do have a very serious problem with and you mentioned some of those things.

 

In any case, we should be careful about how we conceptualize the mind, because the mind is critical in Daoism. This is why we must avoid anti-intellectualism, but we should also be skeptical of accepted "rational" dogmas that keep flying around this forum, and never mind society which is even worse in this regard.

 

For example, does the mind begin in a blank state at birth? This is a popular opinion. But it's wrong if you look into it, because you can see right away that all learning is a modification of expectations and you cannot modify a non-existent expectation. So it's obvious to anyone who contemplates that the mind is not born, ever. And there are many similar assumptions floating around. There are also many spiritual assumptions, so the physicalistic community is not the only community that's afflicted by spurious beliefs.

 

When I read Daodejing, Zhuangzi, and Liezi, it's obvious to me that whoever wrote them was a very contemplative person. These documents were not written by unthinking anti-intellectual fools.

[goldisheavy]

Yep

Same for the first guy ever to eat a crab.

Now that was a brave and innovative ancestor right there!

Crabs and Lobster 'au naturelle' don't exactly scream 'Tasty Food Here" do they?

 

You're joking, right? You don't seriously think our ancenstors were feeding on celestial ambrosia before they developed a penchant for crabs?

[Brian]

Ummm... Celestial ambrosia!

 

 

 

 

Dishes like birds-nest soup are the ones which make me wonder.

[Daeluin]

I find it interesting that most of us can't access memories from before age 2-4 years old. I would merely guess this is related to conditioning our minds to think in terms of words. But even then I find it odd we wouldn't remember pictures or feelings. Perhaps we do, but simply are too caught up in our word-minds to be able to interpret this.

 

In any case I haven't traveled back that far yet. What you say makes a deal of sense.

 

However, I have a suspicion that when one's mind is highly refined and in a stabilized pre-celestial state, it needs no trappings of language with which to communicate from. It has crystal clear awareness and for itself that is all it needs. When it encounters another mind, it naturally slips between the cracks of that mind, just by proximity. I think of it like refined energy not being blocked by structured energy. In any case, all the tools for communication may be found within the mind it encounters and needs to communicate with. There is an example of this here.

 

Perhaps literary works were also written in the same fashion. I like the notion that the Lao Zi was actually a recorded as a Q&A session. Perhaps he merely flowed with the needs of his environment... the way WaySun Liao imagines it works to this understanding. Even when others threaten him, Lao Zi is unminding, and the spells recoil back upon the casters.... possibly because Lao Zi is so one with everything and full of emptiness that the only bit of matching structured energy the spells could find to target was the casters themselves.

 

My point about not shaving is more that in my culture it is very common for people to treat you differently if you act differently. For some of us we don't care. For others it cultivates an environment of going along with the flow regardless of whether or not you have to lie to yourself to do so.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Daeluin

[ralis]

I find it interesting that most of us can't access memories from before age 2-4 years old. I would merely guess this is related to conditioning our minds to think in terms of words. But even then I find it odd we wouldn't remember pictures or feelings. Perhaps we do, but simply are too caught up in our word-minds to be able to interpret this.

 

I have vivid memories before the age of one. That is due to the fact that my primary mode of thinking is visual imagery.

[goldisheavy]

I find it interesting that most of us can't access memories from before age 2-4 years old. I would merely guess this is related to conditioning our minds to think in terms of words. But even then I find it odd we wouldn't remember pictures or feelings. Perhaps we do, but simply are too caught up in our word-minds to be able to interpret this.

 

We should also consider that perhaps we are not born into this realm at the same time the body emerges from the woman's womb. It's possible that some mindstreams literally take their place in this realm as functioning children, and then in that appearance they can learn of "past history" without personally having experienced this in a legitimate way because they weren't in this realm at all at that time.

 

Let me give you an example of what I mean.

 

When I dream I appear spontaneously in an adult human body most of the time (I'll ignore the exceptions here, because I've had a few weird dreams as well). Now, if I were to go around in the dream world and ask about my "past" and the past of the dream world, the dream characters will give coherent and believable answers. This doesn't mean I was actually subjectively there in the past of this dream world. However, if I decide to take the dream world seriously, I will need to accept (at least to some degree) some of the things dream characters tell me about myself and about the world. In this way I can acquire "personal past" which I may have never subjectively undergone.

 

And this waking life is no different from a dream in that regard. It's possible to be in a pre-Earth realm and suddenly appear here as a 4 year old and lo, people will tell you how you were born, show you pictures, blah blah, tell you about world's history and so on. All this is basically an illusion if you take it literally, and most people do.

 

In any case I haven't traveled back that far yet. What you say makes a deal of sense.

 

However, I have a suspicion that when one's mind is highly refined and in a stabilized pre-celestial state, it needs no trappings of language with which to communicate from. It has crystal clear awareness and for itself that is all it needs. When it encounters another mind, it naturally slips between the cracks of that mind, just by proximity. I think of it like refined energy not being blocked by structured energy. In any case, all the tools for communication may be found within the mind it encounters and needs to communicate with. There is an example of this here.

 

I agree with some of your suspicions, but all possible modes of mentation are latent in the mind and it can't be any other way. So just as the refined state of mind you envision is latent in your mind, similarly, othering, labeling, and symbolic interaction with the others that have been othered is all latent in the mind as well. Everything the mind can learn is already internal to it in a latent form. Nothing truly foreign can ever enter the mind.

 

Perhaps literary works were also written in the same fashion. I like the notion that the Lao Zi was actually a recorded as a Q&A session. Perhaps he merely flowed with the needs of his environment... the way WaySun Liao imagines it works to this understanding. Even when others threaten him, Lao Zi is unminding, and the spells recoil back upon the casters.... possibly because Lao Zi is so one with everything and full of emptiness that the only bit of matching structured energy the spells could find to target was the casters themselves.

 

The spells recoil when one is fully relaxed. To relax fully means to know what one's will really is. Once you know what your will is, you will know that you don't need to work yourself over to achieve anything at all. This then is called "spontaneous achievement." This is quite literally magic. When people enter this mode, they do not cognize in an ordinary way. To them other beings are not truly "other" and not "beings" either. The way such person sees oneself also changes. Such people don't see themselves as people. They see themselves as minds, and the mind is only a capacity to know, to experience and to will. Because of this, the mind can develop a weak or even a non-existent commitment to humanity, to the idea that one is a being who lives among beings, and all manner of conventional thinking. When such a mind then relaxes, something strange happens.

 

Or let me put it this way. If you cast a spell on me and I find myself afflicted, the way it happens is that I am afflicting myself by participating with you in sharing some of your assumptions about myself. It means I am actually self-afflicted, and whatever you do from my POV is merely ornamental at the deepest level of insight.

 

My point about not shaving is more that in my culture it is very common for people to treat you differently if you act differently. For some of us we don't care. For others it cultivates an environment of going along with the flow regardless of whether or not you have to lie to yourself to do so.

 

That's pretty much all cultures on this planet. If you do anything differently people will treat you differently. If you want broad social acceptance then you're hamstrung as a practitioner of the esoteric arts. Of course since most of us here have human backgrounds, we tend to crave validation from others, so please don't take it personally as if I am singling you out. I am not intending to single you out. In Daodejing there is a passage of being different from the norm and being OK with it (I'm dark, others are bright, etc.). Same in Zhuangzi (like the guy who didn't grieve at the funeral, for example).

Edited July 22, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Daeluin]

Thank you. I'll need to mull over some of the subtlety here, but I like this. As an astrologer I believe the conception and first breath match the patterns of the incarnating spirit. However I agree that this doesn't mean that spirit fully enters the body. Perhaps the host isn't ready or there are obligations elsewhere, or both. I've heard others speak of identifying two past lives with some level of confidence, and yet those lives overlapped through time. The laws of spirit don't seem to attach to self and other quite the same way we do.

 

Also I recall from the Wang Liping biography how past events can be recalled if one resonates with how their energy imprinted into the land at those past times. Not to mention the akashic records.

[dawei]

I wish I had the time to post in such threads... the membership issues are incredibly time consuming... and the games people play...

 

1. The OP is not qualified for this topic, claimed a year ago to know nothing of this..yet we are here to deal with amateur translates from a chinese wiki... called Baidu. It is embarrassing to say the least... but here we are...

2. Steve attempted some relief but the good guy he is stepped back...

3. Daeliun, this should be your topic to discuss... you have too many ideas which you keep in your back pocket until someone posts about something...

4. Vitalii has spoken directly and rightly... about his lineage ideas... many great ideas and past topics... but I found some counter ideas from others which I wish we could hear again (ie: opendao)...

5. Goldisheavy is the furthest along, IMO... although he wants to say that Daeliun's unity with nature is really a transcendence of nature... is still caught up in nature... It is neither in the end...

 

Maybe someone has something to share beyond all this... but I suspect we are getting outside of this miserable topic anyways.

[Walker]

Dawei is 100% right. That this flood of words has nearly nothing to do with the actual teachings on 性命双修 is testament to two things which the genuinely interested are wise to ponder if they are hoping to study Daoism:

 

-ChiDragon, because he has invented his own definitions of 性命双修 on the basis of a few shallow essays on the relevant topic on a site **that is an arm of the PRC government, which does not give a flying fuck about the accuracy of its encyclopedia entries on Daoist teachings and is NOT a Wiki,** instead of devoting his life to studying the oral and/or written tradition of Daoism, was never capable of starting a clear, accurate discourse on this topic. The ancients said, 知其要者一言而终不知其要者流散无穷. Beware 流散无穷. The Daoist teachings are presented succinctly and with clarity by those who understand the vocabulary of Chinese cultivation, which ChiDragon does not.

 

-The latter conversation about naturalness seems to be rooted on the presumption, not very useful to an inner cultivator, that 自然 and the English word "natural" are synonyms with similar implications. A vast amount of verbiage has been devoted to questions fairly irrelevant to 性命双修 by people who are projecting the word "natural" onto the topic of 性命双修, creating a debate that really has nothing to do with this Daoist teaching. No matter how high one's level of realization, if one does not understand another tradition's language and its epistemology, then one can't accurately speak about that tradition. The sea of words is where many seekers will drown themselves; some would rather grab you by your ankle and drag you down, too, than try and learn how to swim before their last drop of yang is gone. It is thus here in China just the same as it is on this page.

[Daeluin]

-The latter conversation about naturalness seems to be rooted on the presumption, not very useful to an inner cultivator, that 自然 and the English word "natural" are synonyms with similar implications.

 

In the beginning of this thread I presented alternate translations of "xing" precisely to dissolve the argument that xing should be translated in only one way. Thereafter I argued that it should stand on it's own, and largely I have presented it untranslated. The later conversation of "naturalness" has little to do with "xing" itself - it has to do with harmony.

 

A vast amount of verbiage has been devoted to questions fairly irrelevant to 性命双修 by people who are projecting the word "natural" onto the topic of 性命双修, creating a debate that really has nothing to do with this Daoist teaching.

 

The essence of this teaching, as I understand the principle described, is to dissolve the polarity between two fundamental aspects of our human selves. These fundamental aspects inside ourselves can be found projected into nearly every aspect of our modern lives. While I do not know if the specific terms "xing" and "ming" can accurately be applied to modern society's practice of exploiting it's environment, to me the principle of what harmonizing "xing" and "ming" refers to lies at the very heart of this.

 

Personally I have taken much value from understanding how to dissolve the imprinting of fundamental cultural values which go against the principles of the tao. These cultural values are deeply ingrained in the members of society from early ages, and often even those who study the tao do not recognize the very blatant ways they have been conditioned to go against the tao.

 

Thus I find the subject of understanding how human mentality exploits the resources of earth incredibly relevant to the principles of understanding how to unify "xing" and "ming". Perhaps my understanding of these terms does go against the traditional explanations. However I do not think my grasp of the fundamental principle is "inaccurate". Perhaps it is simply changed. Cling to tradition however you like, but a fundamental aspect of tao is "change", and when taoist principles are embraced by a different culture, in a different time, one should hardly be surprised to see new flowers in bloom.

 

No matter how high one's level of realization, if one does not understand another tradition's language and its epistemology, then one can't accurately speak about that tradition. The sea of words is where many seekers will drown themselves; some would rather grab you by your ankle and drag you down, too, than try and learn how to swim before their last drop of yang is gone. It is thus here in China just the same as it is on this page.

 

From my understanding, right and wrong are subjective. Is there something wrong with a one culture attempting to learn from the principles handled down from a different culture's tradition? The very nature of the "tao that cannot be spoken" is that if one speaks on it, it is not accurate. Truth may only be discerned without words. Indeed this too has been brought to light in this 'sea of words.'

 

I hear you projecting doom and offering nothing constructive in return. If we are failing to understand things here, perhaps you can share your guidance, which I have come to respect from your other posts. Otherwise the only message I get from you is to shut up and go away, because nothing I speak of can help anyone.

 

Edit: Didn't mean to grab your ankle, Walker, but you did invite it. I am sorry for reacting to what I felt to be a presumptive and judgmental post. But I do agree: words are a trap. I've tried to use them to help, but perhaps I only strengthen the mental fortress. Indeed I may better serve myself and others without words.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

I have been hesitated to click on the "like" button of the above post to avoid some uncomfortable feelings on the part of others. However, it is just utterly persuasive that the cultivation of the mind which taken effect in this thread. IMO It has met all the criteria of:

Cultivation of the Mind is to broaden one's vision by not being evasive, defensive, or offensive but impartial and persuasive.

 

[dawei]

The mind hesitates, waffles, changes constantly, and plays rope-a-dope...

 

this is a sign of .... severe... what???

[ChiDragon]

Daeluin....
Thank you for not being evasive, defensive, or offensive but impartial and persuasive.

Edited July 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

this is a sign of .... severe... what???

Insecurity?

[ChiDragon]

Insecurity?

 

You guys are really getting very boring.......

Edited July 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

You're welcome, ChiDragon. I've a long way to go yet. I'm glad my sincerity has made an impression. Humbling to me to mull over the past month's worth of posting and reflect on how I've changed. And from the culmination of yin in the new moon another cycle begins.

[opendao]

4. Vitalii has spoken directly and rightly... about his lineage ideas... many great ideas and past topics... but I found some counter ideas from others which I wish we could hear again (ie: opendao)...

 

Xing + Ming = Dao, what can be more profound?

Yuanshen + Yuanqi = Dao, what can be more precise?

"Only Qi and Shen, that's it": Teachers of the past wrote about it a lot.

 

In this thread there are a lot of mistakes. Some "teachers" don't realize the difference between Yangshen and Yuanshen.... Others confuse Ming with the body, Xing with the mind. Even what is written about Xin is far from truth, because the approach to clean Xin is different in Neidan...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Anyone else get the sense that Ming is like post-heaven, emotions, physicality, thoughts, karma essentially, which needs to be worked on; while Xing is like pre-heaven, purity which needs to be brought to the forefront, "the observer," the pure awareness which sees the difference?

 

Ming is always there so long as we are more than simple, pure, awareness, and so it is necessary to cultivate it, to tame the horse on which we're riding. I said in another thread that meditation is largely about taming the mind which is the horse on which we ride - allowing it to be natural and still a horse, but not agitated, etc.. The mind in this case is more like Ming from my perspective; it is the post-heaven energy which becomes thought. The Nei Ye helps with this training:

 

If you can be aligned and be tranquil,Only then can you be stable.With a stable mind at your core,With the eyes and ears acute and clear,And with the four limbs firm and fixed,You can thereby make a lodging place for the vital essence.The vital essence: it is the essence of the vital energy.When the vital energy is guided, it [the vital essence] is generated,But when it is generated, there is thought,When there is thought, there is knowledge,But when there is knowledge, then you must stop.Whenever the forms of the mind have excessive knowledge,You loose your vitality.

 

So cultivating Ming (again, in my perspective) is cultivating this knowledge which is sort of at the liminal level of thought, such as body knowledge, and experience. It might be that the training assists in gaining the power and ability to work with Ming at it's strongest place: stability, clarity, and the place of qi and jing. By "speaking this language" of Ming, deeper levels may then be explored.

 

It's all post-heaven mind-play to try and figure out, describe, and verbalize these things, but it is by the Ming, Destiny, that Xing, original Nature, is known (if'n y'ask me.). With just pure Xing, there's no consciousness of Xing, you just are it - like right now, you're not aware that you're Xing, but you're Xing.

[Marblehead]

If you can be aligned and be tranquil, Only then can you be stable. With a stable mind at your core, With the eyes and ears acute and clear, And with the four limbs firm and fixed, You can thereby make a lodging place for the vital essence. The vital essence: it is the essence of the vital energy. When the vital energy is guided, it [the vital essence] is generated, But when it is generated, there is thought, When there is thought, there is knowledge, But when there is knowledge, then you must stop. Whenever the forms of the mind have excessive knowledge, You loose your vitality.

That sounds so Chuang Tzu.

 

And I will suggest that this is an excellent way to attain to the state of "wu wei". And yes, when thought arrives we have gone too far. (The thought of having knowledge destroys the state of wu wei.)

[Daeluin]

On the first page I quoted Liu Yiming's thoughts on [xing], from Cultivation the Tao, tl Pregadio. Whenever he mentioned [xing] he also mentioned [ming], which I omitted. Since we've gotten into the heart of the matter, I'll post the full chapter. Please consider purchasing the book - Liu Yiming likes to quote and reference the classics, and Pregadio does a great job pointing them all out and adding clarifications. Also, this book continuously goes into the implications of other modes of cultivation on xing and ming.

 

 

 

True and False [xing] and [ming]

 

The Yijing says:

 

Inquire into the principles and achieve your [xing], and thereby accomplish your [ming].

 

An ancient immortal said:

 

If you cultivate [xing] and do not cultivate [ming],

for ten thousand kalpas your Yin Numen will hardly enter sainthood.

If you cultivate Existence and do not cultivate Nature,

it is like having a property without an owner.

 

Both passages refer to the "joint cultivation of [xing] and [ming]." However, [xing] has its own principles, and [ming] too has its own principles. Unless you inquire into their principles and practice them, you cannot know them.

 

The main point concerning [xing] is that there are a [xing] consisting in what is bestowed by Heaven, and a [xing] consisting in one's character. Concerning [ming], there are an [ming] consisting in the destiny given by Heaven, and an [ming] consisting in the Breath of the Tao.

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is innate knowledge and innate capacity. It is what "possesses all principles and responds to the ten thousand pursuits."

 

The [xing] that is one's character can be worthy or foolish, wise or inept. The endowed breath (qi) differs in purity and impurity, in goodness or badness.

 

The [ming] that is the destiny given by Heaven can last a short or a long time, and can meet exhaustion or can flow without hindrances. Wealth and honor, hardship or prosperity differ in range and are dissimilar.

 

The [ming] that is the Breath of the Tao is firm and strong, pure and flawless; it takes life and death as equal, and grows and preserves itself for numberless kalpas. Heaven and Earth do not go against it. and Yin and Yang do not adhere to it.

 

 

 

The [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven is true, and the [xing] that is one's character is false. The [ming] that is the Breath of the Tao is true, and the Existence that is the destiny given by Heaven is false.

 

What is true is the precelestial, what is false is the postcelestial. The precelestial is outside Yin and Yang, the postcelestial is within Yin and Yang. Therefor true and false are not the same, and in [xing] and [ming] there are differences.

 

If those who cultivate the Tao know how to cultivate the [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven, they can use it to transform the [xing] that is one's character. If they know how to cultivate the [ming] that is the Breath of Tao, they can use it to change the course of the [ming] that is the destiny given by Heaven. When they do that, they realize the Way of [xing] and [ming].

 

 

 

Moreover, [xing] is generated from the Heart. The Heart is the dwelling of the Spirit; if the Heart is luminous, the Spirit is clear; and if the Spirit is clear, one's [xing] is stable. Thus the creations and transformations operated by the [xing] given by the Tao pertain to one's Heart.

 

As for [ming], it is as if one knocks and there is a response; when there is a response, breath (qi) is activated; and through the activation of breath, one's [ming] is planted. The one who knocks is the body. Thus the creation and transformation operated by the [ming] given by the Tao pertain to one's body.

 

[Ming] pertains to the "other house" (tajia), and [xing] pertains to "my house (zijia). First you should search for the "method of not dying of the other house" in order to establish your [ming]. Then you should search for that thing originally possessed by "my house" in order to fulfill your [xing]. When there is no dualism between body and Heart, [xing] and [ming] become one family and both are fulfilled.

 

 

 

Those who follow the external ways of the side gates do not know what is [ming]: some maintain that [ming] is the impure essence within the kidneys; and others that [ming] is [Heaven's] decree. They also do not know what is [xing]: some maintain that [xing] is awareness or consciousness; others that [xing] is silence and extinction in idle emptiness; and others that [xing] is the character that one receives as an endowment at birth. All of them talk about [ming], but do not know the Opening of [Ming], and talk about [xing], but do not know the Ancestor of [Xing].

 

What is [xing]? "Not having cognition, not having knowledge, and complying with the norms of the [Heavenly] Emperor": this is [xing]. "Round like a pearl, radiant like a flame, pure like nudity, red like a newborn child": this is [xing]. "When Qian ☰ (Heaven) meets Xun ☴ (Wind), contemplate the Moon's Lair": the Moon's Lair is [xing]. "Not having desires, you contemplate its wondrousness": that wondrousness is [xing].

 

What is [ming]? "Man and woman merge their essences, and the ten thousand things are born by transformation": this is [ming]. The thing within the "vague and indistinct," the essence within the "dim and obscure": this is [ming]. "When the Earth (Kun ☷ ) comes across the Thunder (Zhen ☳ ), observe the Heaven's Root": the Heaven's Root is [ming]. "Having desires, you contemplate its opening": that opening is [ming].

 

Only if you are able to inquire into [xing] and [ming] can you know [xing] and [ming]. And only if you are able to know [xing] and [ming] can you cultivate [xing] and [ming].

 

Alas! Those who know [xing] and [ming] are few, and even fewer are those who cultivate them. How could students not discern them promptly?

 

 

Then in chapter 19, "Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue":

 

 

 

.........

 

 

From this we know that superior virtue and inferior virtue are not to be considered with regard to the postcelestial, but with regard to the precelestial. When the precelestial is intact, that is superior virtue, and when the precelestial is lacking, that is inferior virtue. This is the proper conclusion.

 

Then there are those who do not understand the Great Tao. They either say that [ming] is more important and [xing] is less important, or that [xing] is more important and [ming] is less important. This is all wrong. [Xing] and [ming] must be cultivated together, but in the practice there should be two stages. In superior virtue, there is no need to cultivate [ming] and one just cultivates [xing]: when [xing] is fulfilled, then [ming] is also fulfilled. In inferior virtue, one must first cultivate [ming] and then cultivate [xing]; after [ming] is fulfilled, one must also fulfill [xing]. Fulfilling [ming] is "doing," fulfilling [xing] is "non-doing."

 

 

 

The Ways of "doing" and "non-doing" are established to provide a starting point to those who possess superior virtue or inferior virtue. When one comes to full achieving the Great Tao, not only does the operation of "doing" not apply, but also the operation of "non-doing" does not apply. When one reaches the highest step there is a different wondrous operation, but it does not pertain to either "doing" or "non-doing."

 

If students do not know the discourses about superior virtue and inferior virtue, and right away seek teaching about "doing" and "non-doing," how can they know the true "doing" and the true "non-doing"? Without knowing the true "doing" and the true "non-doing," not only would they be unable to keep their [xing] intact, but they would also be unable to protect their [ming].

 

The relative status of [xing] and [ming] entirely derives from the distinction between superior virtue and inferior virtue. How could students not investigate this in depth?

 

 

20, Doing and Non-Doing:

 

 

 

.........

"Doing" does not refer to striving to act or striving to do. Essentially, after the concealment of the precelestial state, your [xing] and your [ming] are not firm. If you do not obstain a method for cultivating yourself and for returning to the Tao, how can you extend the length of your years and life a long life without aging, and entirely achieve the Great Tao? "Doing" means intending to return to what you have left behind, and to revert to what you had at the origin.

 

.........

Edited July 27, 2014 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

Also:

 

 

'For Hood's sake,' the foreigner muttered. 'What's wrong with words?'
'With words,' said Redmask, turning away, 'meanings change.'
'Well,' Anaster Toc said, following as Redmask made his way back to his army's camp, 'that is precisely the point. That's their value — their ability to adapt -'
'Grow corrupt, you mean. The Letheri are masters at corrupting words, their meanings. They call war peace, they call tyranny liberty. On which side of the shadow you stand decides a word's meaning. Words are the weapons used by those who see others with contempt. A contempt which only deepens when they see how those others are deceived and made into fools because they choose to believe. Because in their naivety they thought the meaning of a word was fixed, immune to abuse.'

 

Steven Erikson, Reaper's Gale

[opendao]

Anyone else get the sense that Ming is like post-heaven, emotions, physicality, thoughts, karma essentially, which needs to be worked on; while Xing is like pre-heaven, purity which needs to be brought to the forefront, "the observer," the pure awareness which sees the difference?

 

It's all post-heaven mind-play to try and figure out, describe, and verbalize these things, but it is by the Ming, Destiny, that Xing, original Nature, is known (if'n y'ask me.). With just pure Xing, there's no consciousness of Xing, you just are it - like right now, you're not aware that you're Xing, but you're Xing.

 

No, Ming cannot be post-Heaven, because then everybody can feel it and manage it using an ordinary sensitivity. Obviously, nobody can do that - people cannot avoid sickness, misfortune and death without a proper internal transformation.

 

Ming and Xing are Pre Heaven treasures, it should be clear.

 

Human mind is post heaven, that's why ordinary people can manage it, but with no constant results.

 

By taming the mind you work with the illness, not with the cause.

 

Neidan works with the cause, that is why it's different in methods and results.

 

And pre heaven doesn't mean it doesn't need to be refined or restored.

[opendao]

On the first page I quoted Liu Yiming's thoughts on [xing], from Cultivation the Tao, tl Pregadio. Whenever he mentioned [xing] he also mentioned [ming], which I omitted. Since we've gotten into the heart of the matter, I'll post the full chapter. Please consider purchasing the book - Liu Yiming likes to quote and reference the classics, and Pregadio does a great job pointing them all out and adding clarifications. Also, this book continuously goes into the implications of other modes of cultivation on xing and ming.

 

That's why before reading ancient texts (Neiye, DDJ etc) I would suggest to start with later texts of Longmen, Wu Liu and other schools, because they explain Neidan more clear and precise.

Ancient texts speak about the same though, but it's hard to grasp it without a proper foundation made by a knowledgeable teacher.

[Daeluin]

If those who cultivate the Tao know how to cultivate the [xing] that is bestowed by Heaven, they can use it to transform the [xing] that is one's character. If they know how to cultivate the [ming] that is the Breath of Tao, they can use it to change the course of the [ming] that is the destiny given by Heaven. When they do that, they realize the Way of [xing] and [ming].

 

By taming the mind you work with the illness, not with the cause.

 

Neidan works with the cause, that is why it's different in methods and results.

 

And pre heaven doesn't mean it doesn't need to be refined or restored.

 

Now that I've spent a few years consistently studying with a qualified teacher, I better understand that to deal with my human mind, nothing will do but cultivating the precelestial. Rather than speculating on the postcelestial, I've been guided to feel it's expression, feel what it's like to lose it over and over again. Feel how easy it is to use it up, and how much work is necessary to get it back after posting in these threads. ~_~

 

It's subtle... the glimpses I've experienced over the past few years are multi-layered, subtle and ever changing. The past few months I've worked hard at using the postcelestial to better understand the framework, and am able to better match experience with understanding. And yet... even better understanding what direction I need to go, I still need to do the work of transcending this web of understanding again. And then clean up the precelestial so that it isn't just a blob of purity but is in harmony and flowing. I'm eternally thankful to have a teacher who's aim is true and uses few words.

[goldisheavy]

The mind has no confirmatory forms. It's silly to speak of "glimpsing" the mind. The mind's functioning is what creates a flow of experience, and this includes ordinary and extraordinary experiencing. So whatever you glimpse, you can be sure it isn't the mind. The mind is never an object of cognition because all cognitions are partial (they exclude alternative cognitions), and because the mind is a capacity (to know, to experience and to will) and a capacity has no shape of its own. It's not brown or yellow or red, not long and not short, not southwest or east, not up or down and not middle, not in the center and not far away.

 

What people call "pre-celestial mind" is a mind that's been released from Earthly commitments and habits. Such release should be cultivated at least at first, because people don't understand that they're not actually people deep inside. Since this confusion exists, there is at first no obvious way to understand one's own mind, and one can gradually learn about one's own mind through the trial and error of spiritual practice. And you don't need a human teacher for this. You just need to be resolute and attentive. In fact, stopping your reliance on others is an important step in restoring what is called "pre-celestial mind" because such mind is independent and not reliant on anything outside itself. The chance of meeting a perfect teacher in this realm is pretty much zero percent. This means whatever good things you learn, you'll also inherit your teacher's closed-mindedness and your teacher's unhelpful assumptions. You'll be taking good and bad, everything, if you rely on your teacher instead of yourself. What's worse, without self-reliance, you'll never be able to tell apart powerful knowledge from limited knowledge, because such discrimination requires a mind for which following is not important.

 

Human beings depend on each other for everything. They follow each other all the time. This is what keeps them trapped in the world of convention.

 

Zhuangzi talks about this, btw. See if you can find the relevant passages on your own.