Cultivation of the Mind

[Daeluin]

The mind has no confirmatory forms. It's silly to speak of "glimpsing" the mind.

 

When I speak of glimpsing above (if you're replying to me that is), I speak of temporary experiences. Many and varied, of approaching oneness. When the whole is divided, parts need names.

 

The mind's functioning is what creates a flow of experience, and this includes ordinary and extraordinary experiencing. So whatever you glimpse, you can be sure it isn't the mind. The mind is never an object of cognition because all cognitions are partial (they exclude alternative cognitions), and because the mind is a capacity (to know, to experience and to will) and a capacity has no shape of its own. It's not brown or yellow or red, not long and not short, not southwest or east, not up or down and not middle, not in the center and not far away.

 

...

 

What people call "pre-celestial mind" is a mind that's been released from Earthly commitments and habits.

 

What I feel as precelestial occurs through an energetic refining process. The more I experience, the more clearly I can distinguish the difference between pre/post-celestial jing, qi, and shen. When I am able to unify them into emptiness, it is an emptiness resting upon a foundation, and doesn't feel like a release, but a state that unifies with all even as it depends on all. As my experience grows, I am sure my perception will also change.

 

Such release should be cultivated at least at first, because people don't understand that they're not actually people deep inside. Since this confusion exists, there is at first no obvious way to understand one's own mind, and one can gradually learn about one's own mind through the trial and error of spiritual practice. And you don't need a human teacher for this. You just need to be resolute and attentive. In fact, stopping your reliance on others is an important step in restoring what is called "pre-celestial mind" because such mind is independent and not reliant on anything outside itself. The chance of meeting a perfect teacher in this realm is pretty much zero percent. This means whatever good things you learn, you'll also inherit your teacher's closed-mindedness and your teacher's unhelpful assumptions. You'll be taking good and bad, everything, if you rely on your teacher instead of yourself. What's worse, without self-reliance, you'll never be able to tell apart powerful knowledge from limited knowledge, because such discrimination requires a mind for which following is not important.

 

Human beings depend on each other for everything. They follow each other all the time. This is what keeps them trapped in the world of convention.

 

Zhuangzi talks about this, btw. See if you can find the relevant passages on your own.

 

When we maintain sincerity and surrender to the guidance of the Tao, we are guided truly. Thus you found your way, and thus I am finding mine. I can expound upon how my teacher is right for me, in my present stage, but those are just details. Largely I agree with you and largely that is the goal of my teacher for his students. We must master our selves.

 

The work I am doing is working for me. As far as understanding xing and ming goes, so far I find Liu Yiming's description most illuminating and in line with the training I am undergoing. There are many ways to the Tao that has no name.

[ChiDragon]

What people call "pre-celestial mind" is a mind that's been released from Earthly commitments and habits. Such release should be cultivated at least at first, because people don't understand that they're not actually people deep inside. Since this confusion exists, there is at first no obvious way to understand one's own mind, and one can gradually learn about one's own mind through the trial and error of spiritual practice. And you don't need a human teacher for this. You just need to be resolute and attentive. In fact, stopping your reliance on others is an important step in restoring what is called "pre-celestial mind" because such mind is independent and not reliant on anything outside itself. The chance of meeting a perfect teacher in this realm is pretty much zero percent. This means whatever good things you learn, you'll also inherit your teacher's closed-mindedness and your teacher's unhelpful assumptions. You'll be taking good and bad, everything, if you rely on your teacher instead of yourself. What's worse, without self-reliance, you'll never be able to tell apart powerful knowledge from limited knowledge, because such discrimination requires a mind for which following is not important.

 

Human beings depend on each other for everything. They follow each other all the time. This is what keeps them trapped in the world of convention.

This is exactly what the OP is all about. Cultivate one's mind is to be resolute and attentive, to be independent and not reliant on anything outside after getting oneself educated. Getting all the true facts stored in one's mind and use them as baseline to evaluate and compare with all the external confusing sources for assurance. Indeed, we want a cultivated mind to be invincible.

[Marblehead]

... getting oneself educated. Getting all the true facts ...

Then forget the words and live spontaneously.

[ChiDragon]

Then forget the words and live spontaneously.

 

........then life would be too simple.

[Daeluin]

........then life would be too simple.

 

Ahahahahaha. That's what you think, my friend. Maybe that was sarcasm? The more I follow spontaneity the more unexpected encounters and synchronicities land in my lap.

 

The other day I found myself leaving a store and facing a direction opposite the way I usually go. "OK, I'll walk home this way tonight!" Not a hundred paces around the corner I ran into a beautiful friend and got a great hug! Not someone I have contact info for either. The more I learn to listen to random things like the direction I happen to be turning and flowing with that direction spontaneously, rather than saying "no, the shortest way home is this way", the more I find myself incredibly surprised and richly nourished... nothing is more humbling and heart opening than to realize how much beauty can be found by simply getting out of the way... of the way.

[dawei]

The more I follow spontaneity the more unexpected encounters and synchronicities land in my lap.

 

 

“Listen not with your ears but with your mind. Listen not with your mind but with your primal breath. The ears are limited to listening, the mind is limited to tallying. The primal breath, however, awaits things emptily. It is only through the Way that one can gather emptiness, and emptiness is the fasting of the mind . . . Observe the void – the empty emits a pure light. Good fortune lies in stopping when it is time to stop. If you do not stop, this is called ‘galloping while sitting.’ Let your senses communicate within and rid yourself of the machinations of the mind. Then even ghosts and spirits will take shelter with you, not to mention men. This is how the myriad things are transformed.“

 

~ Zuangzi, Chapter 4,Section 1 (excerpts), Wandering On the Way, pg. 32-33, Victor Mair

[dawei]

On the first page I quoted Liu Yiming's thoughts on [xing], from Cultivation the Tao, tl Pregadio.

 

 

TTB Reference: Cultivating the Tao by Fabrizio

[Marblehead]

 

........then life would be too simple.

Well, yeah, it would likely be rather boring. But I do like simple in certain areas of my life.

[ChiDragon]

Well, yeah, it would likely be rather boring. But I do like simple in certain areas of my life.

 

Yes, I think you had indicated that you are not into any kind of cultivation. At the present, I am slowly sinking into the cultivation as a semi-Taoist. A semi-Taoist simply means that I am not into the Tao religion but only follow the principles of Tao. It seems to me in the cultivation of the mind is not so boring but fascinating. My mind has been freed with less desire and resentment. Most of the time, sentiment is no longer a serious issue. That said, I think I have just added more commitment to my cultivation. Now, I would be feeling guilty if I don't carry on with it.

[Daeluin]

I think that makes you a full taoist, ChiDragon! Respect to you for increasing your commitment. They say "where sincerity is, the way is open."

 

To my feeling, the principles guide one to the root of the tao. Is the same true of the religion?

[Marblehead]

To my feeling, the principles guide one to the root of the tao. Is the same true of the religion?

Excellent question. (Yes, the question has to do with the cultivation of the mind.)

[ChiDragon]

I do not look into the future, and am constantly surprised and thrilled by every moment!

 

Here is the surprise about Neidan(內丹). The final impression from Wang Chong Yang(王重陽)(1112-1170) about Neidan was:

Instead of cultivate an external dan(丹, pill), let's treat the whole person as a pill and cultivated from the inside. In order to cultivate internally, let's cultivate the mind to manipulate the body most efficiently and cultivate the body to be a healthier person.

 

By cultivate the body is by practicing the most effective method for the body to be self-contain. One wants the body to be self grown, self immune to be freed of illness and self healing. The best forms of excises are Tai Ji and Chi Kung. Both exercises are involved with body movements and breathing which are the most vital essences for longevity. During these practices, the mind was also cultivated spontaneously. The mind can control the body by enhancing the speed and accuracy for the action and reaction. The physical strength was developed for the body by the slowness in doing the movements.

 

The cultivation of the mind, besides, training to control the parts of the body; it was also involves with the intellectual aspect. The mind should store as much as knowledge to cope with the complex world of ours. As a basic concept for Neidan from our ancestors, they had come up with the best method there is, the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM). It is also known as the Dual Cultivation of the Mind and Body. The mind and body are the two major ingredients to be cultivated for one to be a better or true person. Thus the DCXM is the best method to cultivate a person into a most effective internal pill ever.

 

Surprise....

Are you surprised what Neidan(內丹) is all about now......???

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

You're joking, right? You don't seriously think our ancenstors were feeding on celestial ambrosia before they developed a penchant for crabs?

 

Maybe it's just me but if I was some coastal Neanderthal dude and the menu choice was between a plump juicy non threatening codfish and some aggressive armored spider with pinchy claws then Mr Cod would win every time.

 

[Marblehead]

Surprise....

Are you surprised what Neidan(內丹) is all about now......???

 

No, not really surprised at all.

[Daeluin]

Here is the surprise about Neidan(內丹). The final impression form Wang Chong Yang(王重陽)(1112-1170) about Neidan was:

Instead of cultivate an external dan(丹, pill), let's treat the whole person as a pill and cultivated from the inside.In order to cultivate internally, let's cultivate the mind to manipulate the body most efficiently and cultivate to body to be a healthier person.

 

 

Yep.

 

By cultivate the body is by practicing the most effective method for the body to be self-contain. One wants the body to be self grown, self immune to be freed of illness and self healing. The best forms of excises are Tai Ji and Chi Kung. Both exercises are involved with body movements and breathing which are the most vital essences for longevity. During these practices, the mind was also cultivated spontaneously. The mind can control the body by enhancing the speed and accuracy for the action and reaction. The physical strength was developed for the body by the slowness in doing the movements.

 

The cultivation of the mind, besides, training to control the parts of the body; it was also involves with the intellectual aspect. The mind should store as much as knowledge to cope with the complex world of ours. As a basic concept for Neidan from our ancestors, they had come up with the best method there is, the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM). It is also known as the Dual Cultivation of the Mind and Body. The mind and body are the two major ingredients to be cultivated for one to be a better or true person. Thus the DCXM is the best method to cultivate a person into a most effective internal pill ever.

 

Cultivation of spontaneity (different from impulsivity), is cultivation of Xian Tian Xing.

Storing knowledge is cultivation of Hou Tian Xing.

 

The knowledge required by the complex world we live in causes disease, in my opinion.

 

Wander the knowledge based path if you will, but I find it to be largely horizontal in development. To increase your vibration and evolve vertically you need to recognize that thoughts are crystallizations of Hou Tian Shen. They block the Xian Tian Shen from flowing freely, and as they are dissolved and emptied out, room is given for the Xian Tian Shen to flow, take root and develop greater spiritual awareness and whole body connectivity in your Tai Ji practice.

 

But part of resolving these blockages requires dissolving the ego, which entraps the mind and heart. The fixed emotional and mental patterns serve as a foundation of security for the ego, but this foundation is literally the crystallization of the Hou Tian Shen which is blocking the proper cultivation and merging of the Xing and MIng. When the ego holds on to its crystallized form, the flow of the senses meridians, qi, jing are all affected, just like a Beaver Dam restricting the flow of a river.

 

Surprise....

Are you surprised what Neidan(內丹) is all about now......???

 

Thanks for this thread. It has been fun debating with you. We have fundamentally differing views on what DCXM is about, but that's OK.

[opendao]

Here is the surprise about Neidan(內丹). The final impression from Wang Chong Yang(王重陽)(1112-1170) about Neidan was:

Instead of cultivate an external dan(丹, pill), let's treat the whole person as a pill and cultivated from the inside. In order to cultivate internally, let's cultivate the mind to manipulate the body most efficiently and cultivate the body to be a healthier person.

 

By cultivate the body is by practicing the most effective method for the body to be self-contain. One wants the body to be self grown, self immune to be freed of illness and self healing. The best forms of excises are Tai Ji and Chi Kung. Both exercises are involved with body movements and breathing which are the most vital essences for longevity. During these practices, the mind was also cultivated spontaneously. The mind can control the body by enhancing the speed and accuracy for the action and reaction. The physical strength was developed for the body by the slowness in doing the movements.

 

It's not about Neidan, but you can try to support your usual ideas by Wang Chongyang's words. It will be a real surprise if you don't mix mind and Xing, body and Ming.

[Marblehead]

Have I mentioned that I believe that mind and body are one single unit?

[ChiDragon]

It's not about Neidan, but you can try to support your usual ideas by Wang Chongyang's words. It will be a real surprise if you don't mix mind and Xing, body and Ming.

 

Xing(性) = Mind; and Ming(命) = Body had already been defined in the OP.

 

What does dual, in the DCXM, mean to you.....??? Dual means two things to me. You must narrow them down to two things for me. What do you think the two things are to you....???

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

No, not really surprised at all.

 

I am just curious why you weren't surprised. Please give me some good reasons...!!!

[Daeluin]

 

Xing(性) = Mind; and Ming(命) = Body had already been defined in the OP.

 

What does dual, in the DCXM, mean to you.....??? Dual means two things to me. You must narrow them down to two things for me. What do you think the two things are to you....???

 

 

Mind = Xin (心)

Body = Shen (身)

 

In Cultivating the Tao, Liu Yiming has a chapter on Zhenjia shenxin - True and False Body and Mind, which is followed by the chapter on Zhenjia xingming - Trua and False Nature and Existence. Nature and Existence is how Pregadio translates them, for how could he translate them as Body and Mind, which were just addressed in the previous chapter?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Daeluin

[Walker]

 

Xing(性) = Mind; and Ming(命) = Body had already been defined in the OP.

 

What does dual, in the DCXM, mean to you.....??? Dual means two things to me. You must narrow them down to two things for me. What do you think the two things are to you....???

 

 

Amazing.

 

This incorrigible 半吊子, ChiDragon, has the nerve to speak for Wang Chongyang,

 

and act as though he has offered us the definition of xing and ming,

 

when his definition of xing and ming,

 

not to mention his assertion regarding accumulating knowledge,

 

does not even square with Wang Chongyang's shortest and most succinct piece of writing,

 

Which any Complete Reality practitioner ought to have read:

 

Fifteen Discourses to Establish the Teachings (《王重阳立教十五论》).

 

I can only resort to onomatopoeia to express my dismay, so forgive in advance me if any spittle hits anybody in the face:

 

Pffffffffffffft.

[GrandmasterP]

Not a fan then?

 

[Daeluin]

ChiDragon is remarkably resilient in his adamant attachment to a fixed understanding. Even so, I see him changing, and I am happy to see this, for it shows great effort and bravery on his part.

 

Walker, the principles I've learned from the Tao teach me that direct contention is not the way, but only creates polarity and invites opposition. Surely there are ways to clarify confusion without resorting to inviting an oppositional flame war.

[Marblehead]

 

I am just curious why you weren't surprised. Please give me some good reasons...!!!

Lookk at my post #167 then determine if you still need to ask me that.

[Marblehead]

ChiDragon is remarkably resilient in his adamant attachment to a fixed understanding. Even so, I see him changing, and I am happy to see this, for it shows great effort and bravery on his part.

Chidragon is more flexible than many give him credit for. It is just that he has his understandings and opinions and stands by them. If one takes the time to talk "with" him instead of to or at him one will see that he is rather flexible