GrandmasterP Posted July 15, 2014 In due time, they will come to accept my statements, for others to know of my genius, my statements must be seen by as wide an audience as possible, my statements will be heard, and the others will come to understand the truth. It was only ever a matter of time until poor Jack cracked. Get well soon Jack bro. All good wishes to ya. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted July 15, 2014 It was only ever a matter of time until poor Jack cracked. Get well soon Jack bro. All good wishes to ya. Did you like that? I was making fun of the nature of internet forums, and the narcissistic prevalence in which people present the infallibility of their views and perceptions, which shapes their experience of the world around them, that are designated as an undisputed quality of people and things. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted July 15, 2014 Did you like that? I was making fun of the nature of internet forums, and the narcissistic prevalence in which people present the infallibility of their views and perceptions, which shapes their experience of the world around them, that are designated as an undisputed quality of people and things. Let it all out Jack. Cathartic is good. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted July 16, 2014 That's correct GP and in that process, together, we shall embrace our religiosity. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Simple Jack said: I just find it strange that Deci Belle would complain about being denied the recognition of "Zen teacher", and the privilege that comes with that recognition, as an anonymous member of an internet forum. Why should the staff or forum members of ZFI be obligated to grant Deci Belle this privilege? Why bother complaining when they don't allow this privilege to just anyone who happens to create an account on that forum? I don't need permission to respond, dear. And who's complaining? As i stated, it's their religion, and I respected their position regarding dis-allowing the posting of my response. It wasn't my problem to begin with as I have nothing to maintain. You are indeed seeing things that do not exist. Your comment is hung-up on the introduction. Zen is not a religion, it is Mind. Do endeavor to continue finding more important points to comment on pertaining to this HUGE post— instead of dragging it down to your level as I see you have continued to do. 'Tis a pity❤ ed note: encourage SJ to raise the bar by adding last line Edited July 16, 2014 by deci belle 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 16, 2014 ooopsez, cherie~ I meant to spell ZFI… that is Zen Forum International. heehee!!❤ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Yeah thought it must be that one. Nice enough folks but very 'clerical' IMO. You seem to get the 'ordinary' posters such as us then an elite cadre of accepted experts. The western zennists are all a bit like that and it's very self-referential. Possibly because there are so few of them and they all seem to know of, or about; each other. I've imagined their big hitters as a set of trading cards. I have two Brad Warner cards so I'll swap one of mine for one of your Jundo Cohens. Edited July 16, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) . Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) WHO IS A ZEN TEACHER? Steve said: Ultimately, our teacher is the unspeakable, Kuntu Zangpo as the Tibetans call it. We are not taught by people, we are taught by that which manifests through those people. This is why not everyone needs a human teacher. However, having a human teacher is helpful and necessary for most of us because we are not sensitive enough to listen, hear, and learn from the subtle essence that is truly teaching all of us. It is usually helpful to hear words, develop some intellectual clues, and be forced to quiet the mind and listen to what we already know and are. And what I find most interesting is that I don't know if you can really equate human teaching methods and realization. It seems that some "get it" with no instruction or a simple word or observation whereas others never get it, no matter what they do. This is why I think there is a real role and meaning for prayer and blessings on the path. deci said: Real teachers are the power of real recognition. Universal good is the virtue of real power. One’s own recognition, to the extent its activation is impersonally real immediate knowledge, is experience of real teaching. Seeing this is zen without beginning to have seen this as zen. So where is the teacher? It seems reality does not depend on “who”. It is who. Ultimately, one must endeavor to see realization of recognition in terms of the self that is the source of recognition, not the idea of one’s thoughts relative to real experience (which is defined as immediate knowledge). The ideas relative to one's thoughts is an impostor, false, delusional. Mind "referring everything to the self" is not indicative of the self who reflects essence …it is essence. Purity directly penetrating is "who". Reflectivity is inability to penetrate essence. "Who" is one’s own knowing unborn reality, in terms of presence beyond not just reflection but also action— this is selfless action of seeing through situations as spontaneous response. There has never been any other zen teacher. This is zen teaching by virtue of your own recognition of reality pervading situations. This is indicative of Suchness. This is the teacher whose recognition is potential awaiting subsequent illumination on the well-trod path rising gradually. Teaching being sudden as well as gradual is one without beginning. "Who" is perennially awaiting you. Zen isn't a matter of premonition, it is readiness incarnate at the pivot of awareness, incipiently inevitable. ************************************************************************************************************* My quote here was the actual first response to the ZFI thread which I posted there, and included in full here, just after the introduction that JS chose to get stuck on. I am saying the same thing as Steve has in his quote. It is quite amazing that this one (JS), has made this thread about 40 posts (so far) too long— yet he has not even mentioned just this point that Steve (and I) have made quite glaringly apparent. This is the whole point of the thread. Even the punter (who responded on ZFI), as GP refers to them (hahahhaa!!), got that much. JS, do carry on in your native tongue …you'd be contributing (to this thread) just as much.❤ ed note: one "o" short of "too" towards the end Edited July 17, 2014 by deci belle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) He had me at "...unspeakable, Kuntu..." Edited July 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mystique Enigma Posted July 17, 2014 A Zen Teacher is one who will not teach you anything and yet you learn a lot by teaching your self something A Zen Teacher could be a Child, a friend, a neighbour, a teacher, a spouse, an animal, a bug, a tree, a stone etc etc Truthfully it does not matter who. You will anyways take your own understanding. Bows 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) . Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted July 19, 2014 One issue I see with Zen in the West is the difficulty of dealing with ancient terms and concepts in addition to dealing with the warp of our own minds. However, what seems to happen is that we often spend so much time learning and debating about what these terms and concepts mean that we tend to entrench the thinking mind rather than become free of it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) To some extent 'western' Zen has re-made Japanese Zen. Until the western Zennists began arriving in Japan back in the 1960s Japanese Zen was pretty much an herditary funeral and death registration business. It's very different nowadays to what it was. Edited July 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted July 19, 2014 One issue I see with Zen in the West is the difficulty of dealing with ancient terms and concepts in addition to dealing with the warp of our own minds. However, what seems to happen is that we often spend so much time learning and debating about what these terms and concepts mean that we tend to entrench the thinking mind rather than become free of it. I agree and it is also a problem with Tibetan Buddhism and anything else where the language and cultural allusions are misunderstood, misinterpreted, and archaic. It is so valuable when a teacher can translate this into a language and paradigm that the student can really grasp, both conceptually and non-conceptually. When the teacher cannot do this, how effective are they? This takes us back to deci belle's original point. The true teacher is our fundamental nature. The exceptional student can access that simply with attention and devotion. The middling student needs more guidance. The inferior student needs countless lifetimes... The exceptional teacher can lead you closer. The middling teacher can perhaps reinforce what you find yourself and point you in the right direction. The inferior teacher can lead you astray. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Aye and that's where the hereditary principle falls down because you can end up with some right ding bats as teachers just because a delegation of lamas decided that they were the reincarnation of the previous incumbent. Committees seldom get everything right. Look at poor old Trungpa. Never was a guy less suited to an hereditary job than that partay guy. Edited July 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) One issue I see with Zen in the West is the difficulty of dealing with ancient terms and concepts in addition to dealing with the warp of our own minds. However, what seems to happen is that we often spend so much time learning and debating about what these terms and concepts mean that we tend to entrench the thinking mind rather than become free of it. Oh, I don't know… I studied and accomplished through a decidedly arcane and extremely lush tradition of the Southern School of Complete Reality taoism (Its source-books written by an adept through his study and accomplishment and drawing on works compiled during the former Han era material and concurrently influenced strongly by the traditions coming through southern Asia via Tibet). Verrry ancient stuff, yet essentially not unlike Chan~ the precursor to Japanese Zen (Soto) buddhism. The highest aspects of Chan are essentially the same as that practiced in the tradition of the Clear Serenity branch of the Northern School of Complete Reality taoism using the writings of the taoist Southern School's Patriarch, Chang Po-tuan. Dare I neglect to mention the spiritual sourcebooks, the Tao Te Ching as well as the I Ching and others, that have the prehistoric breadth of the sources of Taoism and beyond, imbedded in the words and symbols themselves. Amazingly, there are those that insist that taoism's (popular) classics are philosophical works~ hahaha!! Anybody who has delved into the taoist alchemical terminology (not to mention its device)… well, I didn't have anybody to talk to about that. Not before, during or after… evidently I had an affinity for something… But I have mentioned this before, and that is— I was still lost like the proverbial stupid cat trapped in the cave under the black mountain for about five years until i discovered the Chan of Hongzhi's Cultivating the Empty Field, which opened up the function and led me away from not knowing how to detach from my amateurish clinging to the absolute in the aftermath of the sudden. Not that anybody knew or anything like that. Even now, I don't discuss this stuff other than on forums like this one. Not that being trapped like a stupid cat under the black mountain is a bad thing… it corresponds with the solidification and maturation period of ten months of incubation spoken of in the alchemical classics. Again, I never had opportunities to ask or tell anything to another soul about my situation. Obviously, I never debated anything with anybody. It's not just a problem for the West, I assure you!! It is the nature of the thieving intellectual identity. ed note: add the bit about Tibetan influences on the Complete Reality school in the first paragraph Edited July 20, 2014 by deci belle 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 20, 2014 It is the nature of the thieving intellectual identity. nature of Thievery? ... pirates stealing intellectual identity and such?! This may deserve another topic I wish HBO would of thought of this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Vous!!❤ It is just that the fractious intellectual function comes to usurp the real (unified) identity of self and tends to claim origination for EVERYTHING, much like the curious culturally derived species-centric deification of ego-identity, i.e.: the monotheistic creator of the west-Asian traditions united by the book of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It (the monotheistic traditions of the book) isn't a bad thing per se, but it leaves much that is desirable— but these doctrines ARE formatively moral codes that are valid for some, at least for those who are destined to remain spiritually immature limited by their social and karmic conditioning. I'm not saying conditioning determines one's character— as this quality of the self is expressed naturally in spite of and because of environmental influences. Islam has its transcendental and well-known Sufi tradition and Judaism's Kabala and tradition of re-gathering the sparks, is, like Sufism, available to anyone~ but other than what has been discovered from caches hidden during the persecution of gnostics before and during the time of Constantine (CE 200~400), the back-door to an authentic self-enlightening Christian (Universal) school based on ?? is strangely hard to come by… not that the Greek, Roman and Asian/African Catholic sects don't have acknowledged mystics claimed by their ranks. But what about acknowledged teachers, even (at all?). At any rate, getting rid of the thieving mind is the task by ANY tradition's device to be penetrated by people's sincerity through its open end. ed note: add "limited by social and karmic conditioning" 2nd paragraph, add 3rd paragraph Edited July 20, 2014 by deci belle 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted July 20, 2014 Oh, I don't know… I studied and accomplished through a decidedly arcane and extremely lush tradition of the Southern School of Complete Reality taoism (Its source-books written by an adept through his study and accomplishment and drawing on works compiled during the former Han era material and concurrently influenced strongly by the traditions coming through southern Asia via Tibet). Verrry ancient stuff, yet essentially not unlike Chan~ the precursor to Japanese Zen (Soto) buddhism. The highest aspects of Chan are essentially the same as that practiced in the tradition of the Clear Serenity branch of the Northern School of Complete Reality taoism using the writings of the taoist Southern School's Patriarch, Chang Po-tuan. Dare I neglect to mention the spiritual sourcebooks, the Tao Te Ching as well as the I Ching and others, that have the prehistoric breadth of the sources of Taoism and beyond, imbedded in the words and symbols themselves. Amazingly, there are those that insist that taoism's (popular) classics are philosophical works~ hahaha!! Anybody who has delved into the taoist alchemical terminology (not to mention its device)… well, I didn't have anybody to talk to about that. Not before, during or after… evidently I had an affinity for something… But I have mentioned this before, and that is— I was still lost like the proverbial stupid cat trapped in the cave under the black mountain for about five years until i discovered the Chan of Hongzhi's Cultivating the Empty Field, which opened up the function and led me away from not knowing how to detach from my amateurish clinging to the absolute in the aftermath of the sudden. Not that anybody knew or anything like that. Even now, I don't discuss this stuff other than on forums like this one. Not that being trapped like a stupid cat under the black mountain is a bad thing… it corresponds with the solidification and maturation period of ten months of incubation spoken of in the alchemical classics. Again, I never had opportunities to ask or tell anything to another soul about my situation. Obviously, I never debated anything with anybody. It's not just a problem for the West, I assure you!! It is the nature of the thieving intellectual identity. ed note: add the bit about Tibetan influences on the Complete Reality school in the first paragraph For me, it's been a blessing to find a close friend I can talk to about absolutely anything, including the unspeakable... Sadly, he move a few hours away and I rarely get to see or talk to him anymore. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 20, 2014 pooh!! Some kind of friend that is!! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted July 21, 2014 I'm going to visit in a few weeks. And he's with me in my heart anytime I need him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 27, 2014 I'm going to visit in a few weeks. And he's with me in my heart anytime I need him. Yay!!❤❤ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deci belle Posted July 27, 2014 I just discovered a new (to me) koan-zen teacher giving talks and all-day programs in my town. He is ordained (or something like that) buddhist lay-cleric(?), whatever. I checked out his website, thinking it might be interesting (what was I thinking?). People get to do stuff in his back yard! Eeee!! haha!! He had three standard cases (koans) introduced with talks recorded on icloud(?) on his site. Cool! eh… Tomorrow is Sunday. I'm goona hang out at 12,000 feet and sit on a rock and maybe gaze into space or watch marmots… and then watch a quiet flowing stream of pristine snow-melt come right out of an ancient glacial moraine lined with grass and flowers… eh. heeheehee!!❤❤ 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
