Who is a Zen teacher?

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[idiot_stimpy]

Are we arguing about diplomas again?

[GrandmasterP]

 

C'mon, you're all "tolerance" and "brotherly love", as long as something furthers perennial philosophy, otherwise you're going to shit all over it. In reality, as far as mainstream society is concerned, we are all involved in various personality cults, your precious Tony Parsons comes to mind, I don't think I need to list the various names of people which have been adulated on TTB's.

 

 

 

Seriously? I will have no problem finding posts involving you and GrandmasterP engaging in disparaging remarks against the native cultural characteristics of Tibetan Buddhism, and I don't mean when it involves Westerners copying Tibetan formalities or attire, but actually involving ethnocentrism. Do I need to find some posts in order to remind you guys?

 

 

 

You know what's funny? Various Zen masters criticized opportunistic institutional depravity and the role of Dharma transmission, but what's funny is that they were usually in charge of a congregation of monastics (which doesn't mean they followed the Vinaya) as the abbot of a monastery, and they continued the line of Dharma transmission to future heirs. So, regardless of what we think, it served its purpose, which was a means for the propagation and survival of the Zen lineage. Hell, if Adyashanti and TTB's very own Jax have apparently received Zen transmission, then it really shouldn't be too hard for Deci Belle to do the same, if only in having proved "authentication". It would be hilarious if Deci Belle then started to give undeterred guidance on ZFI.

Thanks for sharing Jack.

Adulated isn't a word BTW.

That apart your English is quite good here but where does all that anger spring from do you think?

Sharing your anger won't make it go away.

Cultivation can do that.

Edited July 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Tibetan_Ice]

ad·u·late

ˈajəˌlāt/

verb

past tense: adulated; past participle: adulated

praise (someone) excessively or obsequiously.

[GrandmasterP]

"American back- formation from adulation" and still 'not a word' that would pass muster in the academy here.

Student writes adulated, marker comments... " 'adulare'?- how so?"

Still and all I'll give you the point TI as it's a 'grey' area over here whilst apparently not quite so 'gray' across the pond.

Edited July 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[doc benway]

From one perspective who is a Zen teacher is a Koan, with the same answer as most of the others.. ..

 

From the human perspective a Zen teacher is someone who can demonstrate their realisation creatively, skilfully and spontaneously, which is one of the strengths of the Zen tradition and lineages. They say to individuals in those lineages that yes you may have some sort of realisation but show it to us, don't repeat some other masters words or use tired old phrases and dogmatic teachings. The whole direction of the awakening is to arrive at the present moment so unless you can communicate from there freshly you wont be considered a skilful teacher in Zen, which can be difficult to do and can take a kind of training or practice combined with natural talent unless you are one of those rare individuals who it just flows out of.

 

Ultimately, our teacher is the unspeakable, Kuntu Zangpo as the Tibetans call it.

We are not taught by people, we are taught by that which manifests through those people.

This is why not everyone needs a human teacher.

However, having a human teacher is helpful and necessary for most of us because we are not sensitive enough to listen, hear, and learn from the subtle essence that is truly teaching all of us.

It is usually helpful to hear words, develop some intellectual clues, and be forced to quiet the mind and listen to what we already know and are.

And what I find most interesting is that I don't know if you can really equate human teaching methods and realization.

It seems that some "get it" with no instruction or a simple word or observation whereas others never get it, no matter what they do.

This is why I think there is a real role and meaning for prayer and blessings on the path.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

Said the person with over 5000 posts in 2 yrs...

 

Grandmaster Poster?

 

Flippant King would be better.

 

He is very good at it I've noticed - many a true word spoken in jest perhaps?

[Simple_Jack]

Steve, Deci was going on about being disallowed from responding to a post for not having Dharma transmission, coining terms such as "professionally indoctrinated" and "religious Buddhism" (wtf?). It ends up sounding like the same boring neuroticism surrounding religion that you typically see with Westerners.

Religious Buddhism is a fact.

You'll find some very religious Buddhists out there.

Saying it 'aint right' does not detract from the fact that for many Buddhists ( as in all faith paths) their faith path is their 'religion' and consequently more of a barrier against than a bridge towards development and growth.

Religious folks on any path are easy to spot.

They all belong to the LAMIAR lineage.

("Look at ME- I am RIGHT").

 

This is representative of the neuroticism I was alluding to in my post, which is particularly redundant and arbitrary, seeing as how [Zen] Buddhism has a textual corpus, religious hierarchical orders, etc. In my mind, I don't see a need to invent such a dichotomy, especially considering that mainstream society would regard the majority of discussion that takes place on TTB's, as belonging to the realm of religion.

[GrandmasterP]

I'm an old geezer.

Sifu Grandpa Simpson is my mentor.

Feel free to ignore these geriatric ramblings.

They seek to signify nothing at all.

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

Now back in the day we had real Zen teachers.

Of course back then we didn't call them Zen teachers we knew them as laundry guys.

There was one down our street right by the five and dime.

Now inventory meant something when I was a boy so that five and dime was a good store, you could buy hard candy taffy and even a plough if you needed one too.

We never had a plough mind you.

My father used to hitch up me and my brothers, your uncles Ken, Bob, Jobab and Ken Junior to an old wardrobe and we dragged that across the field.

It did a pretty good job considering but it sure was heavy and those old rusty chains sure dug into your shoulders.

You see, we were dirt poor.

All we had was each other.

Trouble was we detested each other.

So ya see Zen teachers back then were real Zen teachers , they knew how to starch a collar I can tell ye!

We only had the one collar to share between all us boys,

That collar lasted us all through the Roosevelt administration.

Now Roosevelt , or " Mister Chicken" as he was known back then was a.....

ZzzzZZZzzzzzzzzz

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Spotless]

The use of the term Enlightening throughout the original post really brought me to hear the word in the context of what I had already come to understand - that one does not "reach enlightenment" - one Awaken's - and the enlightening process continues.

 

Enlightening qualities - very fine term

Edited July 14, 2014 by Spotless

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Seeker of Wisdom]

GP, you know what they say: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it must be a duck.

Short sarcastic statements, focusing on faults in others rather than yourself, liking your own posts... Careful, don't turn into Rongzom Fan.

 

You're an intelligent guy, with much more knowledge than me - I'd love to see you be a good Dharma practitioner, as well as a good scholar.

[GrandmasterP]

Could be a little goose.

We get those around here now and again Jack.

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[doc benway]

The use of the term Enlightening throughout the original post really brought me to hear the word in the context of what I had already come to understand - that one does not "reach enlightenment" - one Awaken's - and the enlightening process continues.

 

Enlightening qualities - very fine term

 

Deci has a knack for expressing things that we have experienced in eloquent prose.

Enlightening being is certainly one of her pearls.

[doc benway]

This is representative of the neuroticism I was alluding to in my post, which is particularly redundant and arbitrary, seeing as how [Zen] Buddhism has a textual corpus, religious hierarchical orders, etc. In my mind, I don't see a need to invent such a dichotomy, especially considering that mainstream society would regard the majority of discussion that takes place on TTB's, as belonging to the realm of religion.

I think GMP is referring to people, not the institution.

Religions are not religious, people are or are not.

[GrandmasterP]

Nope Jack's right.

That's the law.

Jack has to be right.

[Adinatha]

I assure you, ones greater than yourself have tried and failed for naught on account of their own vanity.

 

“Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,

“All is vanity.”

-Ecclesiastes 12:8

[GrandmasterP]

A foolish man tries to be good,

And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing,

Yet leaves nothing undone.

A foolish man is always doing,

Yet much remains to be done.

 

TTC 38

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Tibetan_Ice]

Why do non Buddhists post their non Buddhist stuff in the Buddhist section?

[Simple_Jack]

Deci has a knack for expressing things that we have experienced in eloquent prose.

Enlightening being is certainly one of her pearls.

 

I don't think the credit can go to DB for this one, Thomas Cleary uses this as his English translation of bodhisattva, in his translation of the Avatamsaka Sutra

 

I think GMP is referring to people, not the institution.

Religions are not religious, people are or are not.

 

Ok, but if it's the person that qualifies as "religious", then what about the role of faith or devotion in one's chosen path? If an individual has faith in a particular sort of mystical teaching that has many followers worldwide, is devoted to this mystical teaching, but likens this to being "spiritual", not having the "blind faith" of typical religious devotees, how does this not qualify as being "religious"? Society would definitely consider this religious devotion.

[Simple_Jack]

Short sarcastic statements, focusing on faults in others rather than yourself, liking your own posts... Careful, don't turn into Rongzom Fan.

 

In due time, they will come to accept my statements, for others to know of my genius, my statements must be seen by as wide an audience as possible, my statements will be heard, and the others will come to understand the truth.

 

[GrandmasterP]

Why do non Buddhists post their non Buddhist stuff in the Buddhist section?

 

This thread's called " Buddhist Discussion".

TTB is an inclusive forum hence folks who are able to differentiate between discussion and preaching perhaps feel more at home than those more comfortable within the security of unbending dogmatics.

The rather more exclusive " Buddhists Only" club is here.....

http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php

 

Hope that helps some here to find like minded chums.

 

Edited July 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP