The High Indifference

[manitou]

I mentioned this phrase, the High Indifference, in a separate thread about tolerance. In one of my posts I referred to a couple paragraphs from Experience and Philosophy, by Franklin Merrill-Wolff. As it seems like it could have taken the previous thread in a different direction, I thought I'd start a new one. i'd love to quote a few paragraphs from his book, as it seems that it fits just about every discipline, once the terminus of the path is being approached.

 

 

"The attainment of Nirvana implies the successful meeting of all the dark trials of the Path. The struggle with personal egoism has resulted in a successful issue; the clinging to objects has been dissolved; the battle with temptations and threatening shadows along the Path has been successfully fought; and resolution has been maintained firmly; but there still remains the task of rising superior to Glory. The little appreciated fact is that the Goal of aspiration may become a possessor of the Self, and something like spiritual egoism may replace the old personal egoism.......

 

"We may think of Nirvana as the State in which all of highest excellence or value is realized, and in a form that is not alloyed with any dross. It is, indeed, the Divine Presence of the Christian mystic. It is quite natural to conceive of this as the Ultimate, beyond which there is nothing more. But there is a defect. For here is a State that I enjoy and to which I tend to cling, and thus it involves a kind of selfishness, though it is a spiritual kind of selfishness. Thus I am possessed, even though possessed by That to which I give highest value and honor.

 

After all, Bliss is a valued modification of consciousness. But where there is valuation, there is still duality - a difference between that which is valued and that which is depreciated. The highest State transcends even the possibility of valuation, and its complementary depreciation. The Highest Perfection finds no distinction whatsoever. This is the State in which there is no Self of any sort, whether personal or spiritual, and where there is no embodiment of Supreme Values or God. It is the Vast Solitude, the Teeming Desert.

 

To turn one's back upon the best of everything is intrisically more difficult than to turn away from those things and qualities that one's moral judgment and best feeling condemn readily enough. But it is not enough to arrive at the Place beyond evil; it is also necessary to transcend the Good. This is a dark saying, hard to understand, yet it is so. But he who has found Nirvana is safe."

 

 

Although he doesn't refer to this as the High Indifference, he does repeatedly in other places in the book. That phrase just seems to describe a mental state that we often speak of here; but it just seems that the combination of those two words, high indifference, describes so well the State.

 

And as for his very last sentence...'But he who has found Nirvana is safe' - could this be construed to mean that this is why the Sage is free from harm?

 

And as to spiritual egoism that he speaks of.....isn't TTB's a wonderful place to work this out?

Edited July 14, 2014 by manitou

[GrandmasterP]

I quite like Camus' concept ( in L'Etranger) of the "Sublime indifference of the Universe".

"High" indifference maybe implies ( to me anyhoo) something 'above' and maybe 'looking down on'.

Sublime maybe covers those ten directions better than 'Higher' which can only be 'up'.

Excellent thread topic Manitou.

Your guy's ' High Indifference' state seems to be a place he can describe and delineate pretty well, hence it's possibly a staging post along the journey as opposed to being the terminus of a path ( if indeed there is any ultimate destination at all).

Those nice folks who give testimonies on the batgap site linked to elsewhere on here ...

http://batgap.com/

...seem to be saying much the same as this chap does...

" This is how it really is." and for them; maybe it was - at the time; but, generally; not whilst they are testifying ' about it' there on batgap.

My two cents remains...that....

 

If something cannot be described then any attempted description thereof, falls short.

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

So that reminded you of Camus and it reminded me of Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil."

 

But no, I do not hold to a high state of indifference. There are many things I care about.

[forestofclarity]

For a slightly different view, my friend William Samuel would call it Tranquility:

 

 

"The Enlightened know there is no value, good or bad, in images; yet a student is prone to hand onto the good while detaching himself from the not-good and/or to detach himself from the not-good in order to experience more "good." He does the same with emotions. It is surely more pleasant to let go fear and foreboding than to dismiss "that grand and glorious feeling of exhilaration." One is more willing to give up emotions akin to anger than those emotions and responses that have to do with sexual pleasure and excitement; yet the latter are only self-judged "good" emotions, the inner counterparts of exterior "good things." Sooner or later, we are required to devalue all emotions, good and bad alike. (Devalue, not deny, not put off!)

 

Skeptics declare the impossibility of such a requirement. "Even if such a goal were attained," they let us know in no uncertain terms, "the results would be absolutely awful! This would leave us an emotionless, passionless clod or inane nothingness," they lament. "Who wants to exist, even for a minute, as such a dead thing without life or spark?"

 

They have a surprise in store for them!

 

We do not, like ascetics, attempt to end the experience of any emotion. When we de-value emotions and stop searching for them, we find that those we experience are infinitely more than we ever imagined.

 

William Samuel, A Guide to Awareness and Tranquility, pages 217-218

[zerostao]

one persons tranquility is another's 'resting in equanimity'

[ion]

This might be veering off topic a little, but I would like to comment on this;

 

 

 

"We may think of Nirvana as the State in which all of highest excellence or value is realized, and in a form that is not alloyed with any dross. It is, indeed, the Divine Presence of the Christian mystic. It is quite natural to conceive of this as the Ultimate, beyond which there is nothing more. But there is a defect. For here is a State that I enjoy and to which I tend to cling, and thus it involves a kind of selfishness, though it is a spiritual kind of selfishness. Thus I am possessed, even though possessed by That to which I give highest value and honor.

 

Like some others here at TTB I have experienced egoless states. Never was one like the other. Some were terrifying where the only way of calming down was to quickly reassemble my Identity, most were very comfortable and relieving. There was one that I would say was a glimpse of "nirvana" the utmost unsurpassable state of being. This one involved the experience of bliss, which draws a self-concept into consciousness, as in "I am feeling bliss", or "this state is enjoyable". Whatever the thought that arises says or expresses, the thought implies an observer so a self concept arises and that is what causes a loss of the experience of perceiving through nirvana. Even thoughts like "I am this state" or "This is my true nature", which identify the state with a concept of self, or thoughts that bestow a title to the state like "this is the state of Nirvana", have the effect of disintegrating the the state of awareness. perceived through by the state.

 

My current understanding of losing the state of nirvana, is that the bliss, comfort, or anyway the sensation can be described, is that the sensation to which we cling, or enjoy is not nirvana. When we enjoy or cling to Nirvana, we are not clinging to or enjoying Nirvana, but instead the experience is clinging to the effect of being (in) Nirvana. The experience of bliss etc., is the shine upon the apple. Clinging is mistaking the shine upon the apple for the apple itself. Bliss etc., is the radiance of nirvana, and the result of there being no thing to contrast the bliss etc.

 

This is the crux of "crossing over", passing through the gateless gate. It is here where the practitioner judges them self by how they respond to the experience. Clinging to, identifying with, enjoyment of, comparison of the experience, and or deriving meaning from the experience (as in "I am becoming Buddha" or, "I am becoming enlightened") is to not allow awareness entrance into Nirvana because you are wanting it for your self, and calling it the ultimate. You can not remain in the experience for yourself; a self can not get beyond the radiance of nirvana, for within nirvana there is no self, nor lack there of.

[manitou]

Your guy's ' High Indifference' state seems to be a place he can describe and delineate pretty well, hence it's possibly a staging post along the journey as opposed to being the terminus of a path ( if indeed there is any ultimate destination at all).

 

When I say terminus of a path, I'm referring to the path we take to the sublime or high indifference. Those paths do need to be transcended to find the state. Agreed, I don't think there's a destination at all. I think the consciousness just keeps growing in us, if we tend our garden. It becomes more 24/7, and easier to stay in.

 

Or so I'm told.....

[manitou]

This might be veering off topic a little, but I would like to comment on this;

 

 

 

Like some others here at TTB I have experienced egoless states. Never was one like the other. Some were terrifying where the only way of calming down was to quickly reassemble my Identity, most were very comfortable and relieving. There was one that I would say was a glimpse of "nirvana" the utmost unsurpassable state of being. This one involved the experience of bliss, which draws a self-concept into consciousness, as in "I am feeling bliss", or "this state is enjoyable". Whatever the thought that arises says or expresses, the thought implies an observer so a self concept arises and that is what causes a loss of the experience of perceiving through nirvana. Even thoughts like "I am this state" or "This is my true nature", which identify the state with a concept of self, or thoughts that bestow a title to the state like "this is the state of Nirvana", have the effect of disintegrating the the state of awareness. perceived through by the state.

 

My current understanding of losing the state of nirvana, is that the bliss, comfort, or anyway the sensation can be described, is that the sensation to which we cling, or enjoy is not nirvana. When we enjoy or cling to Nirvana, we are not clinging to or enjoying Nirvana, but instead the experience is clinging to the effect of being (in) Nirvana. The experience of bliss etc., is the shine upon the apple. Clinging is mistaking the shine upon the apple for the apple itself. Bliss etc., is the radiance of nirvana, and the result of there being no thing to contrast the bliss etc.

 

This is the crux of "crossing over", passing through the gateless gate. It is here where the practitioner judges them self by how they respond to the experience. Clinging to, identifying with, enjoyment of, comparison of the experience, and or deriving meaning from the experience (as in "I am becoming Buddha" or, "I am becoming enlightened") is to not allow awareness entrance into Nirvana because you are wanting it for your self, and calling it the ultimate. You can not remain in the experience for yourself; a self can not get beyond the radiance of nirvana, for within nirvana there is no self, nor lack there of.

 

 

What a great post, IMO.

 

I've had those terrifying moments also, where we're so far out that our personality seems to fall away and reassemblage is a huge enigma. Don Juan Mateus, when he was teaching Castaneda how to travel between realities, would have Carlos use the device of feeling something familiar, like the ring on his hand. Something to bring you into the Here and Now and reassemble the personality. I've found that the ring thing works.

 

I love your shine on the apple metaphor. Very nice.

[GrandmasterP]

Tranquility I do like the sound of.

Could do with some of that right now what with getting ready to move house, new puppy and Mrs GMP away on a course all day every day this week.

Supposed to be starting a Life Laundry this week but that's on hold until the packing crates and tip-run boxes arrive.

I tend towards the 'all journey- no destination' view but that's a subjective call because all I have to go on is my own experiences and everyone's different so others will 'know' differently.

Those times that I have been in the zone ( all past tense cos I'm not there right now) have been numinous but transitory.

For sure those experiences of the 'extra-ordinary' sublime do colour the rest of my 'ordinary' life.

Perhaps the sublime tenders...

" A life less ordinary."*

 

Perhaps not.

 

 

*http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Less-Ordinary-Baby-Halder/dp/818901367X/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405416086&sr=1-9&keywords=a+life+less+ordinary

 

The author was an illiterate low caste Indian woman. She learnt to read and write.

Then she wrote this inspiring book.

The 'transformative' is ever to hand.

 

Edited July 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

GMP - I've got an idea for you. Practice 'sublime indifference' during the move. Let Mrs. GMP do the packing and moving. it should be a good trial for you to see if you can stay in the Oneness while she's hollering at you and chasing the puppy at the same time. I'll bet your spiritual growth would be incredible.....

Edited July 15, 2014 by manitou

[Anoesjka]

So that reminded you of Camus and it reminded me of Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil."

 

But no, I do not hold to a high state of indifference. There are many things I care about.

That used to be a worry of mine, that once you attained a form of enlightenment, you would become emotionless, robotic. Not wanting to perceive the depths of emotion.

 

But I too have had glimpses involving bliss, and the bliss is a state where there is joy and love, arousal and maybe even a sense of humor. But maybe, if I could only study it, without it kicking me out of that state, I would come to the conclusion that this bliss is ALL emotions all together.

[Marblehead]

That used to be a worry of mine, that once you attained a form of enlightenment, you would become emotionless, robotic. Not wanting to perceive the depths of emotion.

 

But I too have had glimpses involving bliss, and the bliss is a state where there is joy and love, arousal and maybe even a sense of humor. But maybe, if I could only study it, without it kicking me out of that state, I would come to the conclusion that this bliss is ALL emotions all together.

I actually agree with you. Attaining bliss does not mean we don't care about anything anymore. We still care. And we get upset when our bliss is interupted. Similar to wu wei, bliss is a state of existence. Changes cause us to leave these states but we can always return when the conditions are right.

 

And I agree too that we cannot analyze these states while we are there and we can't analyze them when we are not there. Nothing left but to enjoy them when we have them.

[GrandmasterP]

GMP - I've got an idea for you. Practice 'sublime indifference' during the move. Let Mrs. GMP do the packing and moving. it should be a good trial for you to see if you can stay in the Oneness while she's hollering at you and chasing the puppy at the same time. I'll bet your spiritual growth would be incredible.....

 

Yep that'll work.

[ion]

But I too have had glimpses involving bliss, and the bliss is a state where there is joy and love, arousal and maybe even a sense of humor. But maybe, if I could only study it, without it kicking me out of that state, I would come to the conclusion that this bliss is ALL emotions all together.

 

 

I actually agree with you. Attaining bliss does not mean we don't care about anything anymore. We still care. And we get upset when our bliss is interupted. Similar to wu wei, bliss is a state of existence. Changes cause us to leave these states but we can always return when the conditions are right.

 

 

All the emotions I can think of are relative and I so I wonder where love comes in in non dual terms some times, but I tend to think that it was all there, I could feel it but there realllly wasnt any othing like sadness or anything, I guess I tend more to think that this is the state of being where things like love originate.

 

Maybe It would take exposure, maybe bliss is what its like when one is just being in that state, for instance if one were to remain in the state of being and go for a walk and another person came by, I can see how in feeling the bliss, being without discomfort or worry, no plans or schedule to keep, just dwelling in the thick of overwhelming bliss I can see that upon meeting the person, you would feel kindness and love, or if a person was suffering that the bliss would turn to compassion.

[Anoesjka]

All the emotions I can think of are relative and I so I wonder where love comes in in non dual terms some times, but I tend to think that it was all there, I could feel it but there realllly wasnt any othing like sadness or anything, I guess I tend more to think that this is the state of being where things like love originate.

 

Maybe It would take exposure, maybe bliss is what its like when one is just being in that state, for instance if one were to remain in the state of being and go for a walk and another person came by, I can see how in feeling the bliss, being without discomfort or worry, no plans or schedule to keep, just dwelling in the thick of overwhelming bliss I can see that upon meeting the person, you would feel kindness and love, or if a person was suffering that the bliss would turn to compassion.

 

Yes, I couldn't feel any 'negative' emotions also, but that seems very dualistic just like you say, and since the source is all, bliss should incorporate these too. It's a mystery to me, and I guess we won't be able to unravel that one until we reach true realization.

[GrandmasterP]

It comes and goes even then.

I've been fully realised for years and I still have less than a clue most days.

For example.

I spent £20+ on ostensibly amusing and ( it says on the wrapper) 'temptingly flavoured' chew toys for Olive the Puppy.

She's ignored every chew toy thus far but has eaten both of my slippers.

Go figure!

Edited July 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Anoesjka]

The thankless bastard!

[manitou]

It comes and goes even then.

I've been fully realised for years and I still have less than a clue most days.

For example.

I spent £20+ on ostensibly amusing and ( it says on the wrapper) 'temptingly flavoured' chew toys for Olive the Puppy.

She's ignored every chew toy thus far but has eaten both of my slippers.

Go figure!

 

 

Like kids with boxes on Christmas morning---

[silent thunder]

It comes and goes even then.

I've been fully realised for years and I still have less than a clue most days.

For example.

I spent £20+ on ostensibly amusing and ( it says on the wrapper) 'temptingly flavoured' chew toys for Olive the Puppy.

She's ignored every chew toy thus far but has eaten both of my slippers.

Go figure!

but slippers taste like (you) love!

[Stosh]

When asked in a game of trivial pursuit , the question of what the first words from the moon were, my sister paused and then called out.

"Hellooo down there!"

[3bob]

A great Sage is free from "harm" because to them death has died and can longer reach them... (which includes life at the level that is linked to death - although that doesn't mean the life of free Spirit which is not linked to death in any way)

 

Also mixing up Buddhism and Buddhist terms with Christianity or any other Way is problematic to say the least since it is like mixing apples and oranges or water and oil which doesn't work and never will...

[Anoesjka]

Also mixing up Buddhism and Buddhist terms with Christianity or any other Way is problematic to say the least since it is like mixing apples and oranges or water and oil which doesn't work and never will...

 

I think that maybe the exoteric teachings exclude each other, but not the esoteric ones. But I might just be misunderstanding you.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Anoesjka

[Marblehead]

A great Sage is free from "harm" because to them death has died and can longer reach them... (which includes life at the level that is linked to death - although that doesn't mean the life of free Spirit which is not linked to death in any way)

I'm glad you spoke to this as it is something I wouldn't normally speak to but it is an important concept.

[3bob]

Anoesjka,

One only has to read several key Buddhist texts and one will hear the historic Buddha denying or refuting many if not most other "esoteric" teachings. (and going by a couple of years of posts made by many of Buddhists here I think you would hear them saying the same...)

Edited July 17, 2014 by 3bob

[GrandmasterP]

but slippers taste like (you) love!

 

I read last week in the paper....

( Jeremy Clarkson in the Sunday Times)

" If you were two inches tall then your dog would eat you."