What exactly is the mind and where is it located ?

[Silent Answers]

Laws are considerations that things must be a certain way . Considerations are physical things so that Ipso facto makes law physical . Every particle in the universe is bound by law ( yin ) without law there would just be life , nothing. No thing.

Laws in this sense are observations and labels of nature's processes. Following the design of the cosmos, like the laws that "bind" particles together (the strong force). This is the law/force/property that holds everything together.

 

A man made law may well be decided on circumstance and preference of the time by us ....but the laws of nature won't pay your idea any attention.

 

Even if you argue that all of reality is some kind of holographic illusion, the laws/forces that make it all happen MUST be real.

 

Edit note: this is in response to you're other post that all things Yin are negative/illusion.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Silent Answers

[silent thunder]

the laws of man are ego=centric... they are broken every moment of every day, and you may or may not ever be caught and if caught, you may or may not be punished... but just try telling a hurricane or a tornado that killing people is illegal.

[Marblehead]

I liked both your last two posts Silent Thunder although I don't especially like the use of the word "law" when speaking to the processes of nature. I wish there was an English word that says as much about this as does the Chinese word "Tzujan".

[TaoMaster]

all laws are yin . they are negatives. They are all derived from one single basic law. The Law of duality .

 

Ill use a game of ping pong to show you .

 

the server ( yang ) hits the ball over the net and the opponet ( yin ) says no thats against the law and hits it back over the net

 

yang says yes again and hits it back but its a little to the left side of the table and still in play and yin says nope sorry thats not legal either and hits it back to yang .

 

the game or point ends when one of the two has thier way .

 

laws only prevent freedoms of choice.

 

without law , the server , yang would just hit his ball into forever with nothing to stop it , YIN The thing would just keep going forever

 

yin always says no in some way , or not or lies, hates, hurts, YIN is simply a negative noun or verb or adj or what ever . Yang is the positive

 

its what holds us on the ground and forms a ball called a planet . yang and yin generate gravity from all sides.

 

without law nothing would exist , it would keep going further away forever until its vanished from view.

 

every particle that exists in the universe is there because of two factors , yang and yin . Yang puts it out there and yin holds it back from going into the infinity of the past and vanishment .

[silent thunder]

I liked both your last two posts Silent Thunder although I don't especially like the use of the word "law" when speaking to the processes of nature. I wish there was an English word that says as much about this as does the Chinese word "Tzujan".

I agree, the word law really only applies to the human element.

 

For Nature, instead of law, I think condition is more approrpiate.

[TaoMaster]

if laws are created by man and man is created by life then all laws are ultimatly created by life the creator of all things.

 

the closer to present time one is , the easier it is to break and the further away as in the basic law the more difficult. Its a legal matter .

 

the life that gives our bodies motion is the same exact life that brought the basic law into existence. This is my point .

 

 

Laws in this sense are observations and labels of nature's processes. Following the design of the cosmos, like the laws that "bind" particles together (the strong force). This is the law/force/property that holds everything together.

A man made law may well be decided on circumstance and preference of the time by us ....but the laws of nature won't pay your idea any attention.

Even if you argue that all of reality is some kind of holographic illusion, the laws/forces that make it all happen MUST be real.

Edit note: this is in response to you're other post that all things Yin are negative/illusion.

all things began with a consideration from the beginning of time . both yang first then yin . I know I was there . so were you . in spirit.

 

all of the yin attributes are negative is some way . Illusion is one form and so is a lie and so is cant and so is wont and so is hate etc etc .

 

all of the yin attributes are some form of positive. real, Truth, can, will and love etc etc .

 

the mind is subjective law basically . it says the objective world as in the physical universe , should be or should not be a certain way .

 

laws restrict freemdom of choice . freedom is a positive , laws say no to freedom and they are negatives ...Yin

 

we are free to do anything until a law says no.

 

there are no laws that say you are free . free comes first , yang , then the law comes after and says no....... yin .

 

holograms and anything else we can percieve is real . The illusion says its not . Its says reality is something other than what we see but both are real things percievable by us .

[TaoMaster]

Mr Marble head ,

 

i have another question please. You mentioned duality being a subjective matter and not an objective matter. Can you please go into more detail on this with a few examples. ?

 

you might be onto something I havnt realized before. it may be helpful for me in some way .

 

You say there is no duality in the objective physical universe, and that duality is only subjective .

 

please elaborate on this a bit .

 

thx !!

[Marblehead]

Hi TaoMaster,

 

Sure. But for the moment we need to set aside our understanding of Yin and Yang as being opposites. (Remember, Yin and Yang are concepts created by man.)

 

Now, let us consider the first Line of Chapter 2 of the TTC (Henrichs' translation):

 

"When everyone in the world knows the beautiful as beautiful, ugliness comes into being;"

 

From this we can make the assumption that ugliness did not exist until man set a standard of what was beautiful.

 

It is the same for all the other dualistic concepts created by man. Hot and cold, for example;

 

Temperatures at the equator would be considered hot by most while most would consider temperatures at the poles to be cold. These are relative understandings based on a medium temperature. But the temperatures are exactly as they are supposed to be because the equator gets far more direct sun (heat) than do the poles. Their temperatures cannot be different.

 

Chuang Tzu speaks of the processes of creation and destruction in the universe (including on our planet). But he states that neither creation not destruction should be viewed as either good or bad (dualistically) because each action reverses itself in that all destruction leads to new creations and each creation can happen only as a result of something else being destroyed. This is simply one of the processes of the "Tzujan" of Tao. Cycles.

 

Cycles and reversion are very important concepts in Taoism although few ever talk about them. They are perfect reflections of the dynamics of Tao - ever-changing.

 

I use the rose as one of my examples of dualities. In the mind of man, the rose's flower is beautiful but the bush's thorns are considered ugly (because they cause us pain if pricked by any). But the truth is that the rose bush is simply being a rose bush. It grows thorns for protection and grows flowers for propagations purposes.

 

What is, is. It is that simple. No value judgments in the objective.

 

The example of the rose bush can be used to speak to Chi (the energy of everything in the universe). The thorn is Yang and the flower is Yin. But it is still not the truth of reality because there needs be both negative and positive in order for energy to flow.

 

I used to have a lot of difficulty with dualistic thinking until it was suggested to me to consider instead the concept of "useful/useless (to me)". This is really a grand concept. What is useful to me may not be useful to someone else and likewise what is useless to me might be useful to others. No "good/bad" involved.

 

That should be enough for now. I can speak further if you wish.

 

Be well and take care,

Jim

[TaoMaster]

Hey marble head , thanks sincerely for the time you spent putting this together for me . I've heard of other religions that state there is no good and no bad . Not going to say which as it tends to open a new can of worms when I speak of things that are very sensitive to others who might read this . ( laughing ) but I'm going to examine this more .

 

What really caught my attention in another post you made was that you said duality is subjective and not objective . So I tried to look at things without the subjectivity , something I've only done a few times for a very short time .

 

I've woken up in the night and didn't know where I was for a second or two . It was just a room , no location on the planet or city or street . It was not a good sensation and then it ended and I knew exactly where , when and how about the room .

 

The above is an extreme example .

 

So basically you're saying duality is a man made observation . A dog or cat or monkey does not see duality?

 

I'd love to see your point of view better . Really ! And you mine. Who knows, it may be the missing link that fully enables my goals .

 

It's impossible to know what I don't see. Because as soon as I see it , I no longer don't see it .

 

I can only know what I didn't see or didn't know . Same for you too.

 

When I say I understand everything about the universe , it only applies to the thinks I know about it and may not be everything.

 

But so far I know what I know and don't have any questions EXCEPT for your statement on the duality of subjective / objective duality.

 

But this is a good thing and it's another purpose for starting this and all my threads . To get myself and others to examine life and the universe in details and closely . Vanish illusions and become better . But if there is no better and no worse as in duality then what's the point ?

 

Perhaps it truly is all about the sensations of conflict and opposition.

 

So ya I'd like for you to go into more detail about duality As man made observation that does not exist in the objective universe.

 

Thanks !!

 

 

 

 

 

[GrandmasterP]

@ TaoMaster

Paragraphs would help.

Or are they too Yin?

Elsewhere you told us that it was 'all Yang' so where's the beef?

If you know that for sure then you've answered all your own questions.

Haven't you?

Edited September 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[TaoMaster]

@ TaoMaster

Paragraphs would help.

Or are they too Yin?

Elsewhere you told us that it was 'all Yang' so where's the beef?

If you know that for sure then you've answered all your own questions.

Haven't you?

 

No paragraphs are just paragraphs , in starting to spin in a world of confusion now , NOT GOOD , ( laughing )

 

It'll end soon and I'll be on my feet again so to speak .

 

What is all yang ? Where is this elsewhere place ? Link ?

 

I pose questions to get response from others that will get them to explain their reality . Then I compare it to mine . Many times I share mine so they can com pair it to theirs and comment .

 

The purpose is sincere for all . Yours truly .

 

I can only know the things I know . We all do . As soon as I know a thing , it's no longer not known and becomes known by me .

 

It's a matter of question . When one no longer has any questions about life and the universe it can be said truly that one knows everything about the universe and life , the creator of the universe . ( smile )

 

I'm on my ipad so I can't do smile icons. ( smile )

[Marblehead]

Okay, I'll start off with this that I have said a number of time before on this forum.

 

Everything I offer is my understanding and/or my opinion. I resist, as much as possible, stating that I "know" something unless I an quoting someone else and then all I can really say is that I know they said it.

So basically you're saying duality is a man made observation . A dog or cat or monkey does not see duality? I'd love to see your point of view better . Really ! And you mine.

But this is an interesting question in that I have never considered it.

 

Yes, I will restate that all dualities are created in the mind of man. Only the objective universe is exactly what it is and cannot be otherwise. No good, no bad, only is-ness; physical reality.

 

It is we who create dualities based on our preferences.

 

Yes, what about a dog, cat, or monkey?

 

Let's consider a deer and a tiger. A deer would think a tiger is bad. A tiger would think a deer is good. Sure, they are both right. Surely a deer would almost never think a tiger were good. And surely a tiger would never think a deer was bad.

 

But wait! (Sorry.) Haven't there been times when a predator has befriended an animal that is its normal prey? Sure there have. So even here it must be said that good/bad is a learned duality amongst non-human animals.

 

Heavy thoughts there considering how much "thinking" non-human animals are capable of.

[GrandmasterP]

What is all yang ? Where is this elsewhere place ? Link ? ...

 

Post 163 here...

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35969-how-do-we-know-whats-yin-and-whats-yang-really/page-11

 

Hope that helps.

Edited September 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[TaoMaster]

Ok I just examined some statements from a text , online about duality .

 

It stated that there is no good and no bad , no beauty and no ugly and no right or wrong etc . It's opinion only that can differ from one to another .

 

This goes right back to perspective again. Which I don't agree with .

 

For me ? These are all duality . Good bad happy sad laugh cry black white , subjective objective etc . It's not a matter of opinion or perspective .

 

What you're saying is that it's all a matter of subjective opinion , correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

I don't want to misunderstand you .

 

I can clearly see that what's good for one person is bad for another.

 

Let's say a cop writes me a ticket for speeding. It's good for him because it shows he's doing his job but bad for me cuz now I gotta cough up some cash to pay fine or get into more trouble if not . This is opinion in the fullest sense of the word.

 

So is the ticket good or bad ? The ticket is just a ticket both good and bad depending on the POV from one person to the next.

 

It's a good thing in the eyes of the father who's child was almost hit by the car that was speeding but bad for the driver who needs to fork over the fine to the city . It's good for city revenue but bad for the drivers investment portfolio.

 

Is this what your saying ?

 

That for your comments .

 

The one and only master of the Tao ( laughing ) hey it's an opinion .

 

 

[Marblehead]

It stated that there is no good and no bad , no beauty and no ugly and no right or wrong etc . It's opinion only that can differ from one to another . This goes right back to perspective again. Which I don't agree with .

I know. You want so badly to be the one who has the real truth. Hehehe.

 

Therefore, being right is good and being wrong is bad.

[TaoMaster]

I know. You want so badly to be the one who has the real truth. Hehehe.

 

Therefore, being right is good and being wrong is bad.

so your oppinion is that duality is a subjective decision based on oppinion ?

and that is doesnt exist in the objective world ? its subjective and man made ?

yes ?

no ?

 

 

BTW subjective and objective are both the same item when viewed from a spiritual point of view. they oppose each other .

 

you are correct in that subjective is yin and objective is yang .

 

i had to look at it closer for a day until it colapsed for me and became a single item .

 

its an illusion in that it seems like we decide we want to do something first subjectivly and the carry it out objectively after but this is not so .

 

we simply do or see an action or a thing and then consider it after . The consideration says whats objective is not so and can say no in an infinite number of ways .

 

the subjective consideration always comes after and says that which or what is , isnt .

 

they are both the same item in that both are perceivable by life . one happens to be more dence and solid like the core of the planet ( obj ) while the other is alomst and can be virtually transparent made of very few particles.

 

you can visualize a girl in a short skirt and bikini and you can even have her give you a blow fish ( google blow fish ) in a 24 x 24 x 24 glass aqarium with pink spots and blue dots

 

and objectivly outside your body see the same girl , same fish etc etc .

 

both are perceptable by you and if your good at it like i am others can see your image too . The more solid you make your subjective image the easier it is for others to see.

 

I say this from personal experience

[Marblehead]

so your oppinion is that duality is a subjective decision based on oppinion ?

and that is doesnt exist in the objective world ? its subjective and man made ?

yes ?

no ?

Yes. (I'll speak to whatever else of this post I need respond to shortly.)

[Marblehead]

BTW subjective and objective are both the same item when viewed from a spiritual point of view. they oppose each other .

Spirituality did not exist until man created it.

 

you are correct in that subjective is yin and objective is yang .

This is good enough for me.

 

i had to look at it closer for a day until it colapsed for me and became a single item .

But your dualities still exist.

 

its an illusion in that it seems like we decide we want to do something first subjectivly and the carry it out objectively after but this is not so .

That's good.

 

we simply do or see an action or a thing and then consider it after . The consideration says whats objective is not so and can say no in an infinite number of ways .

Yes, we can change our objective reality through our initial subjective considerations.

 

the subjective consideration always comes after and says that which or what is , isnt .

Actually, I think that subjectivity come both before and after.

 

they are both the same item in that both are perceivable by life . one happens to be more dence and solid like the core of the planet ( obj ) while the other is alomst and can be virtually transparent made of very few particles.

Close enough for government work.

 

you can visualize a girl in a short skirt and bikini and you can even have her give you a blow fish ( google blow fish ) in a 24 x 24 x 24 glass aqarium with pink spots and blue dots and objectivly outside your body see the same girl , same fish etc etc .

Hehehe. I think I will leave that one alone.

 

both are perceptable by you and if your good at it like i am others can see your image too . The more solid you make your subjective image the easier it is for others to see.

Yes, our illusions and delusions can seem very real to us but no one else will see them unless you prime them to do so.

 

I say this from personal experience

Please don't tell me about your personal, private experiences. I have enough of my own.

[TaoMaster]

Spirituality did not exist until man created it.

 

oh wow so its not the other way around ?

This is good enough for me.

 

But your dualities still exist.

oh yes very much so and im seeing new ones more and more

That's good.

 

Yes, we can change our objective reality through our initial subjective considerations.

 

Actually, I think that subjectivity come both before and after.

oh ok so its not just after . Do you mean it alternates one after another ?

 

I do too but it always starts at some point in a new unit of time so to speak .

Close enough for government work.

 

Hehehe. I think I will leave that one alone.

 

Yes, our illusions and delusions can seem very real to us but no one else will see them unless you prime them to do so.

 

Please don't tell me about your personal, private experiences. I have enough of my own.

my point was that its not someting Ive read about or know about , its something ive experienced forst hand and thats the best way to know something rather than hear say from another .

 

very interesting stuff MH , thx for your time and personal insights.

 

especially your take on spirituality and duality

[Marblehead]

oh wow so its not the other way around ?

Speaking here of spirituality. I know that there are many who would argue with me and that is their understanding. I could even argue with myself regarding this because from the Taoist view, wu preceded yo.

 

oh ok so its not just after . Do you mean it alternates one after another ?

Speaking here of subjectivity. We view a condition and think, "This isn't right." (Subjectivity) We make the changes we think will correct the condition. (Objectivity mixed with Subjectivity) We view the results and think, "I sure screwed that up." (Subjectivity)

 

my point was that its not someting Ive read about or know about , its something ive experienced forst hand and thats the best way to know something rather than hear say from another .

Yes, I too function best and learn best via first hand knowledge. But we need be totally aware of what inspired what we observed, exactly what we have observed, and the verifiable results of what took place. Awareness without adding to or subtracting from.

 

very interesting stuff MH , thx for your time and personal insights.

 

especially your take on spirituality and duality

Sure. I enjoy talking about this stuff as it helps me understand myself better. And afterall, if I cannot logically explain my beliefs then I need to question those beliefs. These discussions help greatly with that.

[TaoMaster]

Speaking here of spirituality. I know that there are many who would argue with me and that is their understanding. I could even argue with myself regarding this because from the Taoist view, wu preceded yo.

 

Speaking here of subjectivity. We view a condition and think, "This isn't right." (Subjectivity) We make the changes we think will correct the condition. (Objectivity mixed with Subjectivity) We view the results and think, "I sure screwed that up." (Subjectivity)

 

Yes, I too function best and learn best via first hand knowledge. But we need be totally aware of what inspired what we observed, exactly what we have observed, and the verifiable results of what took place. Awareness without adding to or subtracting from.

 

Sure. I enjoy talking about this stuff as it helps me understand myself better. And afterall, if I cannot logically explain my beliefs then I need to question those beliefs. These discussions help greatly with that.

thx bro i like you east coasters ( yang'ers )

[Marblehead]

thx bro i like you east coasters ( yang'ers )

Thanks. I like you too. You are a little strange but then so am I.

 

Talk with you later.

[TaoMaster]

Thanks. I like you too. You are a little strange but then so am I.

 

Talk with you later.

east coast came first . Its Yang . West came after . its Yin

 

eastern philosophy came first too and its YANG westerners ? Yin .

Edited September 18, 2014 by TaoMaster

[TaoMaster]

The best way to know the Tao that I know of is to use the exercises I've got set up at the beggining of my threads .

 

Then you have no need to read or study . Your ability is your guide. Always has been and will be too.

 

If you need my help ? Holla !!

 

I'm here . : )

[Marblehead]

east coast came first . Its Yang . West came after . its Yin

 

eastern philosophy came first too and its YANG westerners ? Yin .

The egg came first.