Let's Talk about Fa Jin(發勁)

[JinlianPai]

No matter how many times Ive heard that Yang style comes from the Chen Style I do not believe it.

 

For Yang is too different than Chen in almost every way Yang is more similar to Wudang Taichi.....

 

In my opinion.

[ChiDragon]

Things do change as they evolve.

All of the names for the moves are retained basically. However, as the style had passed down to another family, the moves are the same but the names have changed. In some cases, the moves had been changed but the names are the same. Some families had changed the animated names to the actual description of the movements. For example, the "impulse money" is called the "impulse lower arm".

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

But I like Chen style more than Yang style. IMHO Yang style is a watered down version of Chen style. The Yang family tried to invent some thing to replace the holes in their style but it is not the same thing. What you see nowadays in Yang family styles are just poor imitation of Chen style. I know I will flame a war with my statements but this is the pure truth. As master Wong says "they're very different".

 

 

Did you say master Wong was wight?

 

I want to push with some Chen stylists. I like what I see...would love to find out first hand how good someone with a few years of practice is...

Edited July 18, 2014 by dwai

[dwai]

No matter how many times Ive heard that Yang style comes from the Chen Style I do not believe it.

 

For Yang is too different than Chen in almost every way Yang is more similar to Wudang Taichi.....

 

In my opinion.

Master Liao says taiji quan started at wudan even before chan sanfeng. The first taiji classic is after all ascribed to him

[ChiDragon]

Master Liao says taiji quan started at wudan even before chan sanfeng. The first taiji classic is after all ascribed to him

 

FYI....

According to the legend, Zheng Sanfeng(張三豐) is the founder of Wudan Pai and invented Tai Ji Quan in the Wudan Mountain.

[dwai]

 

FYI....

According to the legend, Zheng Sanfeng(張三豐) is the founder of Wudan Pai and invented Tai Ji Quan in the Wudan Mountain.

 

The forms might have been but taiji quan is not just the forms. The forms are body movements to either accommodate the energy or to make the energy happen. The daoist masters over the ages had the energy and they would move spontaneously physically when the energy would flow through them. The students who didn't have the energy yet would copy the physical movement to induce energy flow. That's one explanation I heard for how the forms came about.

Edited July 18, 2014 by dwai

[Andrei]

At min 36:30 starts the interesting part, but the whole video is interesting:

 

[ChiDragon]

The forms might have been but taiji quan is not just the forms. The forms are body movements to either accommodate the energy or to make the energy happen. The daoist masters over the ages had the energy and they would move spontaneously physically when the energy would flow through them. The students who didn't have the energy yet would copy the physical movement to induce energy flow. That's one explanation I heard for how the forms came about.

 

dwai.....

 

I have been holding on my criticism about your understanding about Tai Ji. I'm sure that you feel the same about me. Perhaps some of you may think it is naive on my part. I had said this before and was attacked by many members. Well, I am not afraid to defend the truth.

 

From observation, regardless of the style, it is the amount of time one puts into the practice rather than the form as the dependent. It is the biggest fallacy if one think each form will give you the most energy. Indeed, there are eight basic forms to be performed, most effective, by the practitioner for Fa Jin. That said, I may conclude that all Taiji movements/forms are slow and have the same beneficial effect on the body to produce jin or energy. Of course, the movements have to be coordinated with the breathing for the physiological effect to take place inside the body. Again, I repeat, it is the time that one puts into practice to be effective rather than the style of the forms.

 

 

The students who didn't have the energy yet would copy the physical movement to induce energy flow. That's one explanation I heard for how the forms came about.

From this quote which indicated to me that you did not have the actual experience by your own intuition.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[4bsolute]

You can have a look at my teacher's - Serge Augier - text on the different explosion of force

 

http://urbandaouk.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-different-jing-explosion-of-force.html

 

I always find it interesting how individual wanting to harness Qi and use it to manipulate and dominate others, speaking of the combat applications. When you can truly sense and feel Qi, every cell in your body will get reprogrammed and learn in a positive, uplifting and life-affirming way that you can then once-and-for-all drop all your dualistic approaches to life that cause unnecessary harm.

 

What do you want to master or even understand in it's outmost layers that hold the total opposite of your vibrations, when approaching it with such an attitude? You will intuitively understand that this is not going to work.

 

This is stepping out of our kindergarten environment, our sandbox and getting into greater circles of Life itself. Elements that formed and continue to form your very being.

 

But dont believe my words. Get there and you will see for yourself. We are not speaking about opinions here, things are how they are.

Edited July 18, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Prince...]

[dwai]

 

dwai.....

 

I have been holding on my criticism about your understanding about Tai Ji. I'm sure that you feel the same about me. Perhaps some of you may think it is naive on my part. I had said this before and was attacked by many members. Well, I am not afraid to defend the truth.

 

From observation, regardless of the style, it is the amount of time one puts into the practice rather than the form as the dependent. It is the biggest fallacy if one think each form will give you the most energy. Indeed, there are eight basic forms to be performed, most effective, by the practitioner for Fa Jin. That said, I may conclude that all Taiji movements/forms are slow and have the same beneficial effect on the body to produce jin or energy. Of course, the movements have to be coordinated with the breathing for the physiological effect to take place inside the body. Again, I repeat, it is the time that one puts into practice to be effective rather than the style of the forms.

 

 

 

From this quote which indicated to me that you did not have the actual experience by your own intuition.

Oh I've had experience that doesn't need intuition. It is called developing Ting Jin and Tong Jin. I know what I know because of firstly, personal direct experience.

Second, what my teacher taught me (and his teacher taught him) besides many other fellow taiji brothers/sisters who learnt (are learning) in our system is corroborated experientially.

 

Not a single thing my teacher has told me has not come true - everything he said has happened exactly how it happens (despite my initial skepticism).

 

If you can't understand Qi, how can you understand Jin? How can you know the relationship between the two?

 

Enough said...I wasn't really interested in debating you. I know your stance has not changed for many years now (since i've interacted with you on TTB). I was sharing this information for the benefit of those who might be interested in knowing about this.

 

The rest, as they say, lies in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

[Wu Ming Jen]

While doing my tai chi chuan forms the power is un- manifested, potential, hidden and secret. While sparring the power is manifested,obvious and apparent this is Fa Jing.

 

Fa Jing, so many types, too many to list, friendly fire is a wave that passes through the body, but then we have strikes where the waves stays internal to bounce around and cause damage.

[Andrei]

There are 36 types of JIN from Taichi, I found them in a book but most of them I felt them during pushing hands with my friends, except from 33 to 36 empty force which I never experienced but I am eager to see someone performing one of them:

1. Ding Jin - stillness or non-movement force
2. Peng Jin - repelling force
3. Lu Jin - rolling force
4. Ji Jin - pressing force
5. An Jin - pushing force
6. Cai Jin - grabbing force
7. Lie Jin - splitting force
8. Kao Jin - shoulder force
9. Zhou Jin - elbow force
10. Tzan Lien Jin - sticking force
11. Ting Jin - listening force
12. Tong Jin - understanding force
13. Tzo Jin - following force
14. Fa Jin - neutralizing force
15. Chieh Jin - borrowing force
16. Ying Jin - reflecting force
17. Ti Jin - uprooting force
18. Chen Jin - sinking force
19. Na Jin - controlling force
20. Kai Jin - opening force
21. Ho Jin - closing force
22. Boh Jin - deflecting force
23. Short Jin - mostly translated from Fa Jin
24. Long Jin - which is the basic push that everybody is showing on youtube as an extraordinary achievement
25. Chou Jin - rolling force (different type of rolling than Lu)
26. Jzeh Jin - twisting force
27. Jen Jin - tumbling force
28. Dzuen Jin - spiraling force
29. Tze Jin - cutting force
30. Nung Jin - cold force penetrating deep and explodes
31. Tuan Jin - breaking force
32. Chuen Jin - 1 inch force
33. Fuen Jin - concentrated force into a grain of rice
34. Dow Tiao Jin - vibrating force that makes you jump
35. Dow So Jin - vibrating force that is flowing smoothly
36. Tzo Teh - bending force
37. Kong Jin - empty force or distance force

[4bsolute]

There are 36 types of JIN from Taichi, I found them in a book but most of them I felt them during pushing hands with my friends, except from 33 to 36 empty force which I never experienced but I am eager to see someone performing one of them:

 

33. Fuen Jin - concentrated force into a grain of rice

34. Dow Tiao Jin - vibrating force that makes you jump

35. Dow So Jin - vibrating force that is flowing smoothly

36. Tzo Teh - bending force

37. Kong Jin - empty force or distance force

 

Thank you, great sensing skills. How many more are there possibly? Are there more getting created each moment or is there a fixed amount?

Edited July 18, 2014 by 4bsolute

[ChiDragon]

The eight basic ways, in Tai Ji, to Fa Jin.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Andrei]

I don't know but I can tell you this:

 

Hu Yaozhen was a master of 33.

Shen Ming was a master of 34 - 35 - 36. Also Max Christensen, Lama Dorje Dondrup and Dr. YK Leung (Shi Delong).

What comes to my mind right now as master of 37 is Michael Lomax but 37 is mostly used for medical Qigong in my opinion is too weak to be used for martial purposes.

 

But these guys are rare, you don't find many like them.

[4bsolute]

While doing my tai chi chuan forms the power is un- manifested, potential, hidden and secret. While sparring the power is manifested,obvious and apparent this is Fa Jing.

 

Fa Jing, so many types, too many to list, friendly fire is a wave that passes through the body, but then we have strikes where the waves stays internal to bounce around and cause damage.

 

Yes, it does cause damage when your intention is not pure. Create combat, receive combat. No combat? No combat. No damage caused.

 

Or: You can create combat with the intention to not hurt, only to teach your opponent his actions. To reflect them back onto him, as teachings, of what he better does not want to do again. For his own health.

 

Is this actually a known aspect of Fa Jin?

 

Such as the cycle completes when a Master can heal all damage caused by his actions. I do not support violence but I can accept this form, as teaching.

 

I surely know that I personally want to 'hear' my intention louder. Since it is very, very silent, barely noticable at the moment. Also.. it tends to scatter through out the day. Maybe 'this' is the Qi and it's 'program' (intention) I hold, reflecting me entire being.

 

You can check your intention very clearly, when you go outside and listen to the wildlife, responding to you. Having a tough time, because I carry much load from my family environment with me. But it is getting much better now since I dedicated myself to learn this very efficiently. To perfection.

Edited July 18, 2014 by 4bsolute

[GrandmasterP]

From the Bagua martial art perspective ( well in the dojo where I was taught anyhoo) they explain Fa Jin, or Emitting Power as the martial power that is used for striking or attacking. Although footwork comes first in our ability to defend ourselves, without power you will have a very hard time ending a fight.

Fa Jin is broken down into Dou Jin, or Shaking Power ("short power), and Zhong Jin, or Heavy Power (long power).

I suspect there's much more to it than that but it 'works' for the MA side.

Long power is strategic and gets you to where you can finish the job ( behind the opponent is best) using short power.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

The eight basic ways, in Tai Ji, to Fa Jin.

 

Master isn't very gentle with his students.

[GrandmasterP]

Master isn't very gentle with his students.

 

If the nice Tai Chi teacher I go to now and again mentioned any of those words and asked the students to learn their meanings then she'd have no class the following week.

 

[ChiDragon]

Master isn't very gentle with his students.

 

 

Have you notice how the students fall to the ground...??? They were trained well. The teacher have not used full thrust of his jin is because it was only a demo. Otherwise, the student would have been moved father away from the teacher. Btw the purpose of Fa Jin is keep the opponent away as a defensive move.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Have you notice how the students fall to the ground...??? They were trained well. The teacher have not used full thrust of his jin is because it was only a demo. Otherwise, the student would have been moved father away from the teacher. Btw the purpose of Fa Jin is keep the opponent away as a defensive move.

Yes, and I also noticed that the students were not faking their ejection. I pay attention to that as I have seen many videos where the student helps the Master.

 

Yes, the students were trained well. They did know how to fall and get into a position to resume action if so decided. Me? I would walk away. Hehehe.

[Daeluin]

I'd be interested in developing this Zhong Jin (long/heavy power) through my legs, to increase maneuverability. Seems far more applicable in the every day world...

 

Here's a cool graphic novel which explores some pretty awesome Jin techniques. Exaggerated perhaps, but follows enough principles to be enjoyable from a taoist perspective. Perhaps.

 

http://www.mangareader.net/530/the-breaker.html

http://www.mangareader.net/the-breaker-new-waves

 

The beginning is slow. Be patient and you'll be rewarded.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, and I also noticed that the students were not faking their ejection. I pay attention to that as I have seen many videos where the student helps the Master.

 

 

 

Let me clarify this. The students, in the video, were well trained with Jin in them. In the demo, some of the student's Jin had been canceled with the teacher's Jin by contact and by the fall also.

 

The students in the other videos did not help the master to fake it. There was no need for that. Those students just didn't have the skills as the last video. Beside, the beholders have not possess any Jin in them to feel the effect in the video. One need to have to develop the Jin in the body in order to understand what was going on in the video by intuition. When I was watching those video, I was almost synced myself into it which seems like I was there in person.

 

Those who criticized those videos was an indication to me that they don't have any Jin in themselves to realize what is going on. Sorry, folks. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I beg your pardon.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

From the Bagua martial art perspective ( well in the dojo where I was taught anyhoo) they explain Fa Jin, or Emitting Power as the martial power that is used for striking or attacking. Although footwork comes first in our ability to defend ourselves, without power you will have a very hard time ending a fight.

Fa Jin is broken down into Dou Jin, or Shaking Power ("short power), and Zhong Jin, or Heavy Power (long power).

I suspect there's much more to it than that but it 'works' for the MA side.

Long power is strategic and gets you to where you can finish the job ( behind the opponent is best) using short power.

We are taught short power, long power and cold power. These are different ways in which the energy can be vibrated to cause certain effects.