Let's Talk about Fa Jin(發勁)

[Green Tiger]

I-chuan Master Gergory Fong seems to have some pretty good fa jin, and zhan zhuang is his thang. Coincidence?

Edited July 24, 2014 by Green Tiger

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael,

 

IMHO, the difference between pushing and striking is in the nature of the power being used. Long power is usually pushing, short and cold power are striking. Because an explanation I've heard is that long power is like giving one tug to a long rope...a solitary, slower wave results in such a tug. Long power is like that...so a single pulse of jin (in fa jin) affects the opponents, thereby resulting in his/her being uprooted and physically moved.

 

Short power is like a rapid fire series of short pulses, resulting in a dense waveform, will both physically uproot the opponent as well as cause damage to him/her internally (if the right amount of power is applied).

 

Cold power is like an explosion inside the opponent, and applied power literally explodes within their body. When applied with sufficient power, it can stop hearts, explode organs etc.

 

My sifu tells that long power, short power are easier to cultivate. Cold power is hard. There are other powers that are possible, but only a few know how to do this.

 

Hi Dwai,

 

Thanks. Your comment is very interesting. May I ask, what style of internal martial art do you practice? Do you know of any published explanations of its various ways of generating power?

Edited July 26, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Vitalii]

On this video we can see Fu Qing Quan (grandson of Fu Zhongwen) doing the Fajing.

 

[spatha]

Bruce Frantzis Fa Jin

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Great, now we're really talking Fa Jin!

 

On this video we can see Fu Qing Quan (grandson of Fu Zhongwen) doing the Fajing.

 

Hi Vitalii,

 

Thanks. Fu Qing Quan's performance closely resembles Earle Montaigue's Fa Jin which can also be watched on this video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ04lJGLmrE

 

Please check if in your school you are doing it the same way. In particular, I am curious if most schools use that forth-and-back turning of the waist the same way Erle demonstrates a little before 2:00. Especially in regard to punches to the body where it would seem you want to have an appreciable degree of penetration.

 

Best,

Michael

[dwai]

Hi Tryambak,

 

Thanks. Your comment is very interesting. May I ask, what style of internal martial art do you practice? Do you know of any published explanations of its various ways of generating power?

I practice Temple Style Tai Chi as taught by Master Waysun Liao. I study with his direct student of 30+ years.

The is some material in Master Liao's book titled "T'ai Chi Classics".

[Michael Sternbach]

I practice Temple Style Tai Chi as taught by Master Waysun Liao. I study with his direct student of 30+ years.

The is some material in Master Liao's book titled "T'ai Chi Classics".

Thanks, Dwai.

 

Actually, I have that book somewhere. I will look for it!

 

Meanwhile, could you also comment if your master's method of generating Fa jin is the same as what Erle Montaigue demonstrates in my last post's video? I would really appreciate it.

 

Best,

Michael

[Vitalii]

Great, now we're really talking Fa Jin!

 

Hi Vitalii,

 

Thanks. Fu Qing Quan's performance closely resembles Earle Montaigue's Fa Jin which can also be watched on this video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ04lJGLmrE

 

Please check if in your school you are doing it the same way. In particular, I am curious if most schools use that forth-and-back turning of the waist the same way Erle demonstrates a little before 2:00. Especially in regard to punches to the body where it would seem you want to have an appreciable degree of penetration.

 

Best,

Michael

 

Hi Michael,

In my school we train different variations of Fajin

 

one more interesting video

 

[Vitalii]

I practice Temple Style Tai Chi as taught by Master Waysun Liao. I study with his direct student of 30+ years.

 

Could you tell me please why this style is named "Temple Style"?

Is it a variation of Yang style?

[ChiDragon]

I believe the temple style was referring to the style that the Taoists are practiced in the temple of Mountain Wudang.

[dwai]

Could you tell me please why this style is named "Temple Style"?

Is it a variation of Yang style?

Some say it's a variation of Yang style. Master Liao, the person who brought this system to the West in 1970 says it is the style of Tai Chi he learnt as a student in a Daoist temple in Taiwan. He says the way Temple Style is taught is the original style (like ChiDragon suggested in his response) - single form practice, zhan zhuang, nei gong and finally Dao Gong.

[dwai]

Thanks, Dwai.

 

Actually, I have that book somewhere. I will look for it!

 

Meanwhile, could you also comment if your master's method of generating Fa jin is the same as what Erle Montaigue demonstrates in my last post's video? I would really appreciate it.

 

Best,

Michael

i'm pretty sure it is not. Erle Montague seems to be a very physical oriented guy. I don't see any overt similarities (based on videos I've seen of Erle Montague)

[beyonder]

[Prince...]

 

[JinlianPai]

Master Liao says taiji quan started at wudan even before chan sanfeng. The first taiji classic is after all ascribed to him

 

Thanks for the reply that confirms what I was also thinking about.

 

That taichi meditation was in existence before before san chang feng as taichi is a phiosphy as well.

 

With what you said in this thread and with my prior thoughts tehn id have to concur that the temple style taichi is the original taichi.

 

Thus its similarities to wudang and yang style.

 

And that the chen style was the family's cannon fist which was in existence before chen family taichi. So the chen's took temple style and adapted it to thier family cannon fist boxing giving birth to the chen style taichi.

 

There for adding to the confusion of scholars.

 

Chen style was the first family taichi.

 

Wudang is where the meditations of temple style taichi found a home and grew.

 

But neither is the originator of taichi meditations. As taichi is a very very ancient philosophy.

 

This is just my opinion.

[dwai]

 

Thanks for the reply that confirms what I was also thinking about.

 

That taichi meditation was in existence before before san chang feng as taichi is a phiosphy as well.

 

With what you said in this thread and with my prior thoughts tehn id have to concur that the temple style taichi is the original taichi.

 

Thus its similarities to wudang and yang style.

 

And that the chen style was the family's cannon fist which was in existence before chen family taichi. So the chen's took temple style and adapted it to thier family cannon fist boxing giving birth to the chen style taichi.

 

There for adding to the confusion of scholars.

 

Chen style was the first family taichi.

 

Wudang is where the meditations of temple style taichi found a home and grew.

 

But neither is the originator of taichi meditations. As taichi is a very very ancient philosophy.

 

This is just my opinion.

That's my understanding too

[Daeluin]

Fa Jin is like sneezing.

[Marblehead]

Fa Jin is like sneezing.

Oh, that's too extreme for me to do on a regular basis.

[spatha]

Fu Qing Quan's performance closely resembles Earle Montaigue's Fa Jin which can also be watched on this video:

 

 

Earle Montaigue's Fa Jin is not good enough.

in fact it is a kind of external kungfu style (Wai Jia)

[spatha]

good external style - Chuo Jiao (Fa Jin at 3:30)

[Michael Sternbach]

Earle Montaigue's Fa Jin is not good enough.

in fact it is a kind of external kungfu style (Wai Jia)

Thanks for the Chuo Jiao video - for my taste, too much sloppiness and hopping, though.

Erle Montaigue was doing mostly Old Yang style Taiji with all the components of an internal style or Nei Jia (including Qigong) - it has nothing to do with Wai Jia.

 

Nice Fa Jin demonstration by his son Eli

Edited August 3, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I practice Temple Style Tai Chi as taught by Master Waysun Liao. I study with his direct student of 30+ years.

The is some material in Master Liao's book titled "T'ai Chi Classics".

Hi Dwai,

 

In that book there are some interesting explanations of basic principles of the various kinds of power explained as well as some probably useful preparatory exercises. I didn't find anything detailed as for practical techniques, however. Does anybody reading this know a practically useful explanation of the vibrating palm, for instance?

 

U c, what I like about Erle Montaigue is that he was actually precisely demonstrating a lot of techniques. None of this "we will only teach you our real secrets once you have been washing the toilet and standing in the horse stance three hours a day for ten years and thus shown your loyalty to us" kind of stuff.

[dwai]

Hi Dwai,

 

In that book there are some interesting explanations of basic principles of the various kinds of power explained as well as some probably useful preparatory exercises. I didn't find anything detailed as for practical techniques, however. Does anybody reading this know a practically useful explanation of the vibrating palm, for instance?

 

U c, what I like about Erle Montaigue is that he was actually precisely demonstrating a lot of techniques. None of this "we will only teach you our real secrets once you have been washing the toilet and standing in the horse stance three hours a day for ten years and thus shown your loyalty to us" kind of stuff.

I've been learning from my Sifu for the past 12 years. When I got Master Liao's book first and read through it, it seemed all fine and dandy, but I couldn't figure out where the relevant sections of meditation and practice were towards developing jin (or jing as is termed in the book).

 

My teacher keeps no secrets. He told us the same things within the first 6 months, as he tells us now. But every time he says it (at various intervals of time), it makes different sense. When I first attempted to do condensing breathing, my mind couldn't even visualize how the qi needs to be condensed, because the meridians were all blocked and as a result the yi couldn't lead the qi.

 

But as practice unfolded over time and I softened up (relaxed/became more sung), things started to fall into place. Things that seemed to operate at a physical level earlier began to make sense from an energetic level.

 

Many beginners attempt to do condensing breathing by using muscular strength (tension and relaxation of the muscles), thinking they can "squeeze" the qi into the bone marrow. But that is a wrong approach. Once one is sensitive (as a corollary being relaxed enough), the qi becomes more tangible as a real energetic flow. Then the condensation becomes a feeling, a real palpable feeling. Then one can condense.

 

The first and foremost criterion for good tai chi is to let go of strength. As Lao Tzu says in the Tao Te Ching, the soft and pliable will always overcome the strong and inflexible. It is not just about psychology or about the natural world. That is the first and most important pre-requisite for Nei gong (and nei jia as a result), imho (and as I have understood the teachings).

 

So, I didn't have to clean toilets and wait on my teacher hand on foot. He freely shared with me and my brothers and sisters. Right from the beginning. He only began to make sense once I got out of my own way.

 

Everything has its own way (Dao). And to force a different way onto something that is naturally/inherently different will yield, well, some other result...

 

I missed the question about "practical application of vibrating palm". There is more detail to what happens after condensing is done successfully. That is using the vibrations achieved via condensing to issue what is called short power, long power, cold power etc. The way the energy is vibrated results in a particular type of effect that will be caused in an opponent.

 

Best.

 

D

Edited August 4, 2014 by dwai

[Michael Sternbach]

I've been learning from my Sifu for the past 12 years. When I got Master Liao's book first and read through it, it seemed all fine and dandy, but I couldn't figure out where the relevant sections of meditation and practice were towards developing jin (or jing as is termed in the book).

 

My teacher keeps no secrets. He told us the same things within the first 6 months, as he tells us now. But every time he says it (at various intervals of time), it makes different sense. When I first attempted to do condensing breathing, my mind couldn't even visualize how the qi needs to be condensed, because the meridians were all blocked and as a result the yi couldn't lead the qi.

 

But as practice unfolded over time and I softened up (relaxed/became more sung), things started to fall into place. Things that seemed to operate at a physical level earlier began to make sense from an energetic level.

 

Many beginners attempt to do condensing breathing by using muscular strength (tension and relaxation of the muscles), thinking they can "squeeze" the qi into the bone marrow. But that is a wrong approach. Once one is sensitive (as a corollary being relaxed enough), the qi becomes more tangible as a real energetic flow. Then the condensation becomes a feeling, a real palpable feeling. Then one can condense.

Dwai, thanks for your elaborate reply. Very interesting what you are saying here.

The first and foremost criterion for good tai chi is to let go of strength. As Lao Tzu says in the Tao Te Ching, the soft and pliable will always overcome the strong and inflexible. It is not just about psychology or about the natural world. That is the first and most important pre-requisite for Nei gong (and nei jia as a result), imho (and as I have understood the teachings).

I think the question of physical strength is a pretty complex one. To many people in the internal martial arts, it seems to imply stiffness and inflexibility. Yes, there are bulked up folks like that. As much as there are many artistic gymnastics etc. well trained strenght-wise but as flexible as a rubber. The question generally lies more in the functionality of your muscle mass relative to the desired physical activity and how you are able to apply this functional strength - if you can do so relaxedly and with the proper body coordination. For that matter, I think internal martial arts strongly rely on body mechanics, and this is physical/physics.

 

Some internal practitioners say that the strength they're using comes not from the muscles but from the sinews. I do think this has a meaning even though it's somewhat unintelligible to me right now, anatomically speaking.

So, I didn't have to clean toilets and wait on my teacher hand on foot. He freely shared with me and my brothers and sisters. Right from the beginning. He only began to make sense once I got out of my own way.

 

Everything has its own way (Dao). And to force a different way onto something that is naturally/inherently different will yield, well, some other result...

I see, learning by doing. I agree that ultimately it's the only way to go. It's a typically Asian approach to teaching, btw; "simply try to follow what I show you", not too many words made. I guess I simply like to know where I'm going so that I can choose my way more consciously.

I missed the question about "practical application of vibrating palm". There is more detail to what happens after condensing is done successfully. That is using the vibrations achieved via condensing to issue what is called short power, long power, cold power etc. The way the energy is vibrated results in a particular type of effect that will be caused in an opponent.

Still wondering though if somebody other than the Montaigue school explains these things in technical detail - while there is no doubt that the ability to perform them properly is a result of years of training.

 

Cheers,

Michael

[JinlianPai]

That's my understanding too

 

Thx for the reply.

 

Well to then follow the thought further it is also my opinion that the chens did not teach Yang Lu Chan the chen style but instead temple style taichi and from that he made yang family taichi.

 

So this way the Chen family taught him taichi but did not violate their family rule of teaching the chen style to the outsiders.