Historical connection between Eastern and Western Alchemy?

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Anoesjka]

I think wisdom like this is universal and can be accessed by anyone willing to go inside and listen. So it would be natural to have common archetypal ideas.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Friends,

 

I am hoping that one of you learned gentlemen could shed some light on a subject that frankly there seems to be much confusion about. What do we really know about the historical connection between eastern and western alchemy?

 

I know the Gnostics say it's the same as Taoist Alchemy and/or Kundalini Yoga. And our Theosophy friends say it came from ancient Egypt, sorry I mean, Atlantis. While our Rosicrucian friends freely mingle Qabalah, Tarot in with it. But there seems to be very little support for those claims (they seem entirely fabricated, to be more blunt). In fact, these overlays seem to add considerable confusion on what is a beautifully elegant and apparently self-contained belief system.

 

I do see some interesting connections between Taoist alchemy and Western alchemy however. Is there any substance to this? And if they aren't connected, how is it that the symbolism can be so eerily similar at times?

 

I apologize if this question has been asked and answered before. If there is a reputable book(s) on the subject I should consult, I would be delighted to know what those are.

 

Thank you for whatever you can do to cure this clueless soul of his confusion.

 

Frater U.F.A.

Cross-cultural connections were a subtext of my contribution to this discussion:

 

External alchemy writings

 

but concrete historical connections are hard to pin down. Though, at this point in time I tend to think that they arose independently because of some similarities of worldview and underlying cosmic metaphors, at least one of which, the similarity between Aristotle's hylomorphic worldview and the Chinese lǐ/qì (理气, principle/substance, being the closest, principle being in this case closest to the Greek arche, ruling principle, and substance being like Anaximenes use of 'air' as the primary substance from which everthing was formed), apparently introduced by Hanfeizi and inspired by his study of the Dao De Jing. Since both of these ideas were introduced within a short span of decades of each other, in areas separated by thousands of miles, a physical transmission of these ideas seems very unlikely, probably impossible.

 

I wish I had more time to talk about this now, it is a fascinating subject. Thank you for bringing it up and since this seems to be your third post, welcome to the Tao Bums.

 

This was posted while I was preparing my reply:

I think wisdom like this is universal and can be accessed by anyone willing to go inside and listen. So it would be natural to have common archetypal ideas.

and I pretty much agree with it, but the concrete details, such as those I provided do help to fill out the picture.

 

 

 

Edit: Corrected the link which did not work.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Aetherous]

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Edited July 18, 2014 by Aetherous

[Nungali]

I think wisdom like this is universal and can be accessed by anyone willing to go inside and listen. So it would be natural to have common archetypal ideas.

 

That was the answer given to me by a very learned gentleman when I asked about other similarities (some striking and seemingly unexplainable ) between western esoteric astrological themes (and others) and some Australian Aboriginal ones - that were well developed before either had contact with each other.

 

[ I dont mean common archetypal themes from the collective unconscious that we all have obvious connection to in the Jungian sense (like a crescent Moon shape for example).

 

I mean , for example, like in the case of 'Scorpio'. when some aboriginal myths are relayed relating to those stars, they have the most 'Scorpionic' themes ; ritual, initiation, lying, punishment, strong will, jealousy, secretiveness, magnetic charm, illicit sex, power issues, a 'base unclean murkiness' leading to a journey and eventual ascent and flight into the sky.]

Edited July 18, 2014 by Nungali

[Anoesjka]

It seems that all knowledge is accessible to anyone willing to go there, some call it the Akashic records. I wouldn't be to sure that it has nothing to do with the collective unconscious presented to us by Jung, though.

 

The hidden knowledge can imho only (at least for me) be accessed through the subconscious mind, it seldom comes to us in the form of language, often in the form of metaphors and symbols. Those are the language the subconscious uses to communicate with us.

 

Tarot has these archetypal images, myth has it, modern movie scripts, they all have it and I'm sure, as you state, astrology too.

[GrandmasterP]

Crude analogy this is, others on here will do better.

IMO

Western alchemy is early Isaac Newton and such.

Philosopher's Stone , alembics and the beginnings of what we call 'science' nowadays.

Some dude without his eyebrows in a laboratory forever blowing stuff up.

Eastern alchemy = internal cultivation.

No laboratory, charcoal fired furnace or bendy glass tubes necessary.

Hope that helps.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Anoesjka]

GMP, maybe that is true for some western alchemists, but not for all. I practice internal alchemy, alchemy of the soul.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Crude analogy this is, others on here will do better.

IMO

Western alchemy is early Isaac Newton and such.

Philosopher's Stone , alembics and the beginnings of what we call 'science' nowadays.

Some dude without his eyebrows in a laboratory forever blowing stuff up.

Eastern alchemy = internal cultivation.

No laboratory, charcoal fired furnace or bendy glass tubes necessary.

Hope that helps.

 

Crude, yes, historically accurate, no, helpful, doubtful, among other things it relies on common East/West stereotypes and reinforces them.

 

As an early example of a scholarly study of Chinese 'external' alchemy, one can cite:

 

Nathn Sivin, Chinese Alchemy: Preliminary Studies. Harvard Monographs in the History of Science, 1. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1968.

 

This is to say nothing of the extended discussions in Science and Civilization in China mentioned in my post cited above:

 

If by external alchemy you mean the alchemy of the macrocosm and internal alchemy you mean the alchemy of the microcosm, then there is a huge literature on external alchemy written in the West which you can find here:

 

Adam Mclean's Alchemy Website

 

On a scholarly level, Volume Five of Science and Civilization in China Covers this from a very insightful perspective.

 

Science and Civilization in China on Wikipedia

 

Since I first studied these books, the order of them has been modified and I basically studied what would now be called Vol. 5, parts 2, 3, and 4. I found in these a level of insight into the worldview necessary to understand alchemy which had taken me years of thought and study to achieve by the study of original sources, I am assuming that this would be in part 2, which I am also assuming used to be part 1.

 

The early 1970s was a time when I was particularly studying alchemy in both Chinese and Western terms. There is a fundamental similarity which makes cross-cultural comparison fruitful. Of course I can hardly begin to describe it here.

 

In Daoist Mineral, Animal and Plant Magic on p. 316, Jerry Alan Johnson begins a section called 'Ancient Chinese Plant Alchemy', aside from some details related to how this was approached in China, the actual instructions are not that different from what you would find here:

 

The Practical Handbook of Plant Alchemy by Manfred Junius

 

or if you want to go back to the work of the man who started the modern revival of laboratory alchemy in the West, here:

 

The Alchemist's Handbook by Frater Albertus

 

The way to look at the big picture is to see that there are two subdivisions of neidan and weidan, in this case interpreted as microcosmic alchemy and macrocosmic alchemy, which in turn are subdivided into neidan and weidan, where in the microcosmic weidan the work is with pre-natal energies and weidan with post-natal energies, explaining the macrocosmic alchemical equivalent would require too much time right now.

 

I hope this is helpful for a quick overview.

 

In Science and Civilization in China, both 'internal' meditative alchemy and 'external' laboratory alchemy are examined.

 

In the West, the situation is somewhat different as the 'meditative' tradition is not well represented in the literature, at least that I am familiar with, which is extensive, but dated in the sense that I have not done this type of reading much since the 1970s and early 80s. However since the Microcosm/Macrocosm principle is one of the fundamental principles of these practices in both East and West, there seems to be no good reason to rule out a tradition of internal cultivation in Western alchemy, and in this regard I found the writings of Michael Sendivogius and his discussion of the Microcosm, very suggestive, though he is writing in the Seventeenth Century. Interestingly many things in Plato's Timaeus in his description of the human body could also be taken as providing a basis for practices similar to the Chinese, especially when they are combined with ideas that occur in other of his dialogues.

[Dainin]

This book may be of interest regarding this subject, although it's somewhat (or maybe very) speculative.

 

 

A Story Waiting to Pierce You: Mongolia, Tibet and the Destiny of the Western World by Peter Kingsley

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

It seems that all knowledge is accessible to anyone willing to go there, some call it the Akashic records. I wouldn't be to sure that it has nothing to do with the collective unconscious presented to us by Jung, though.

 

The hidden knowledge can imho only (at least for me) be accessed through the subconscious mind, it seldom comes to us in the form of language, often in the form of metaphors and symbols. Those are the language the subconscious uses to communicate with us.

 

Tarot has these archetypal images, myth has it, modern movie scripts, they all have it and I'm sure, as you state, astrology too.

 

What I meant was ... it does have to do with the collective unconscious (perceptions) but not the superficial, easy to see and explain type. It isnt a case of all recognising the crescent moon symbol ... its much more complex and (IMO) amazing as the internal dynamics, in some cases, are so similar in deeply developed and complex themes, that seem to show no reason for the similarities ... its one of things that make me think that some of these things have some type of objective reality.

[Nungali]

But I don't know this for sure. Maybe I am way off. Most modern resources seem to focus on external alchemy and that is discouraging. Perhaps I should be looking to Taoist alchemy for the answers. Perhaps it is just the frustration of my intellect, which can not grasp nor put a label on what is happening.

 

Frater UFA

 

Sorry if this is too obvious a suggestion, but have you read Jung's writings on alchemy? That might help..

[GrandmasterP]

Have you come across Dr Jerry Alan Johnson - FraterUFA?

 

His work may be of interest to you and there's an interview with him here on TTB...

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35153-jerry-alan-johnson-ttbs-interview-answers/

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Nungali]

I have been working with this

 

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/splensol.html

 

 

and using the whole document in relation with 'earth alchemy' and 'hermetic agriculture' .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Crude analogy this is, others on here will do better.

IMO

Western alchemy is early Isaac Newton and such.

Philosopher's Stone , alembics and the beginnings of what we call 'science' nowadays.

Some dude without his eyebrows in a laboratory forever blowing stuff up.

Eastern alchemy = internal cultivation.

No laboratory, charcoal fired furnace or bendy glass tubes necessary.

Hope that helps.

 

Actually there is some very awesome eastern physical alchemy if you look around a bit .

 

Also a lot of internal western alchemy.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I beleive you need both, the internal and external alchemy, each enhances the other. The processes are not only on one realm..

[Nungali]

Certainly the case with agricultural alchemy. Some people, I didnt even want in the preparations shed. The guy I worked with had great success, others didnt that seemed to be doing the same thing (I actually tested him - I gave him {blind} samples to hold and feel. some made by him and some by another - he picked the difference 3 out of 3 ) .

 

Same when making tofu (the old way ) ... a certain sensitivity is required, even on the physical level, due to subtle variations in atmosphere ( moisture, temperature, light) and ingredients .

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I wish I had more time to contribute to this now, but I don't.

Regarding Peter Kingsly, I have read his first three books and while the first was interesting, the others were not as stimulating and all of them left me with the impression that he was being less than objective in aspects of his treatment, and possibly purposefully so. The possible Shamanic background to ancient Greek Philosophy is not new and was examined, very likely for the first time, by E. R. Dodds, in his The Greeks and the Irrational in 1951.

Regarding Carl Jung, if more people were familiar with the art of memory, Jung's interpretation of alchemy would not be nearly as influential as it is. Once on reads Frances Yates' The Art of Memory, it becomes an open question whether the colorful symbols used in some alchemical writings are 'images, spontaneously arising from the collective unconscious', or cleverly constructed artifacts designed at once to obscure an arcane art and aid the memory of the initiate.

FraterUFA's experience with 'the White Queen' and Diana reminded me of experiences that I had circa 1970 with guided meditations given in 'The Old Religion' by FPD, in the now long out of print New Dimensions Red Book. In these, much to my surprise, after working with them for a while, I found them opening up in directions that seemed far more alchemical then I might have imagined. There is definitely a curious undercurrent in Celtic 'fairy' contacts and this might be an interesting area to explore to find a Western internal alchemy and very shamanic too, how chic. The contribution of S. F. Annett, 'The Grail Tests' to the same volume, with its discussion of thunder axes, among other things, was also very interesting.

And no I don't think that the experiences above support a notion of 'collective unconscious' in the Jungian sense, I leave them to stand on their own, as I have never been one to reach for handy explanations, like some nostrum to relieve the anxiety of the unexplained.

[Songtsan]

100th Monkey Effect

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

 

Not really, I know a bit about them and his work. I was never drawn to me because it seemed like he was trying to shoehorn a psychological theory into the alchemical symbols. Perhaps I am wrong on this. In any case, I don't believe alchemy is simply a process to transform the psyche... I believe that it points the way to literal immortality. Was Jung on the same page?

 

I think for some, from a psychological perspective is good to incorporate, or at least be familiar with the psychological approach (or in the case of VanDusen the psychiatric approach - where recovery processes {VanDusen's 'hallucinations of a good order' } can be relevant to alchemical type imagery and interior experience). I'm not advocating it as the approach.

 

I dont think alchemy is simply a process to transform the psyche either. But the operator needs transforming ,,,, immortality certainly suggests a transformation, and if physical, or even genetic immortality was desired would not a transformation of the psyche be as well? .... I suppose one could postulate that any process or 'medicine' would transform on all levels ?

 

I see alchemy operating on many levels (as I see it is an emulation of forces in nature, mostly based on 'circulation'), what I call an earth level, in agriculture and gardening, on psychological level, a physical level relating to health, a metallic and chemical level, perhaps even a fire level relating to the construction of matter itself ( very dangerous! ) or a mineral level with stone ( as in geopolymers) ? I dont see alchemy as just one thing, I see levels of it.

 

Complex inter-related symbolism plays a part in memory definitely , and served remarkably well before the modern communication age. I have encountered this with the ideas behind memory theatre, ( some historical figure who could repeat whole conversions of the night exactly, even backwards - I cant remember his name ) and first hand with the indigenous here - who have a phenomenal capacity. Then there is the code aspect as Donald also pointed out, they can be exoteric or 'clan based' anything from a cave painting through to a 'Tracing Board'.

 

Thunder axes ! ... I wonder if they mean the same thing there as they do here ?

 

If you seek literal immortality ( I guess literal means on all levels including this physical body?) then, no, I dont think Jung would be on your page, I think he saw that aspect as an analogy.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Nungali

[Anoesjka]

Not really, I know a bit about them and his work. I was never drawn to me because it seemed like he was trying to shoehorn a psychological theory into the alchemical symbols. Perhaps I am wrong on this. In any case, I don't believe alchemy is simply a process to transform the psyche... I believe that it points the way to literal immortality. Was Jung on the same page?

 

I don't think Jung believed in physical immortality. I use alchemy purely on a psychological and spiritual level. I don't think the pursuit of material aspects is a desirable thing as such and I don't care for them.

 

I don't think there is an outward or material path, or maybe there is, but to stumble upon enlightenment that way, would take aeons. It's in our own inner athanor that we can speed up the process.

[GrandmasterP]

 

Actually there is some very awesome eastern physical alchemy if you look around a bit .

 

Also a lot of internal western alchemy.

Dr J is the 'go to ' guy for me.

If Jerry doesn't endorse it then it aint 'fusion' ( best of both worlds) alchemy IMO.

Anyone else pretending to Dr J's obvious level of expertise in those areas has a whole lotta books to write before I'd give them equal credence.

It's one thing to claim " Well I am currently reading this book," but quite another to be able to attest..." Here are the books on the subject that I have written."

Dr J can do that. Few others alive today can.

 

Edited July 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP