Historical connection between Eastern and Western Alchemy?

[GrandmasterP]

I was really wondering what the hearer of such a statement might say rather than the 'alchemists' subsequent rejoinder Frater.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[GrandmasterP]

 

So you're saying that one's spiritual path should be dictated by what other people think of it?

Not at all.

I was speculating upon how a conversation with a self declared 'alchemist' within an everyday social setting might proceed.

David Walker- Barker the alchemist and artist was a neighbour of ours when we lived on the Pennines.

David's art mediated converse but his 'studio' was very much an alchemist's lair.

Interesting chap.

Alchemy in western art has tangible proof and product.

Surrealism for one example and one can discuss the art and touch on the alchemy but discursive alchemy without tangible 'product'...

How might one discuss that?

Maybe I am missing something here on these 'western' alchemy threads on TTB but for the life of me I cannot see any tangible product for discussion beyond status claims.

Generally here we discuss cultivation and its discontents.

" I do thus and beget this." For starters.

Someone may then say...

" impossible!"

And so on.

But we're discussing claimed tangibles.

With 'western alchemy' outside of its influence on art.. There seems to be no tangible product beyond western alchemy producing western alchemists.

Hence my 'fictive' comment earlier.

There's nothing at all wrong with stories, they serve a purpose, hence their popularity.

Edited September 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

And a closet Unitarian.

Don't forget the Unitarianism, it sorta defined Newton's latter years.

Everyone was fine with the alchemy but had he been outed as a Unitarian he'd have been stripped of his Fellowship and ejected from the university rendering him both homeless and potless.

 

Sorry, I lost you there. Its as though that is put up as a distraction from the fact that Newton has a stack ... this high < holds hand up beyond his reach> of alchemical writings. What you said seems to advocate alchemy and Newton.

 

Or is this still that dinner party fellow talking

[Nungali]

Not at all.

I was speculating upon how a conversation with a self declared 'alchemist' within an everyday social setting might proceed.

David Walker- Barker the alchemist and artist was a neighbour of ours when we lived on the Pennines.

David's art mediated converse but his 'studio' was very much an alchemist's lair.

Interesting chap.

Alchemy in western art has tangible proof and product.

Surrealism for one example and one can discuss the art and touch on the alchemy but discursive alchemy without tangible 'product'...

How might one discuss that?

 

IMO that is alchemical philosophy and that is approached as philosophy

 

 

Maybe I am missing something here on these 'western' alchemy threads on TTB but for the life of me I cannot see any tangible product for discussion beyond status claims.

 

Yep, you missed it then. I have offered at least two ... my 'earth alchemy' and my 'psychological astrology map' ... for me they have been rooted in practical application ... regardless of how valid or invalid people may think they are ... they are tangible products and have nothing to do with 'status claims' as they merely copy and intensify processes in nature.

 

 

Generally here we discuss cultivation and its discontents.

 

'Earth alchemy' / biodynamic agriculture is certainly about 'cultivation'

 

 

" I do thus and beget this." For starters.

Someone may then say...

" impossible!"

And so on.

But we're discussing claimed tangibles.

With 'western alchemy' outside of its influence on art.. There seems to be no tangible product beyond western alchemy producing western alchemists.

 

It 'seems' that way yes . on the 'outer' out there in the 'real' mundane world.

 

 

Hence my 'fictive' comment earlier.

There's nothing at all wrong with stories, they serve a purpose, hence their popularity.

 

Yep. There is some great fiction in the recent western esoteric tradition that inspired and influenced a few practical movements and developments.

 

The same may be true of some religions as well

[GrandmasterP]

Excellent points all Nungali.

I'm really not out to debunk any alchemy or alchemists, it's an interesting topic for chat.

Earlier I'd mentioned Dr Jerry Alan Johnson's alchemical tomes.

Dr J did an excellent interview for TTB earlier this year.

So.

What Dr J calls alchemy.

What Frater X call alchemy.

Your alchemy ( and I am on board with alchemical crop cultivation 100% ).

Our artist chum's alchemy.

And so on....

Some of those have a tangible product for examples.

Dr J's 'graduate' students.

Produce grown via alchemical cultivation methods.

Art produced by alchemical artists.

All 'products'.

Then on the other hand we have our hypothetical 'Frater X ' who discourses on alchemy and alludes to secrets but provides no assessable 'product' beyond bare narrative.

One could argue that Frater X's narrative alchemy is a product insofar as he is producing a story, albeit an enigmatic one and that veiled in mystery.

I can see an outcome from a conversation about alchemy with Dr J, yourself or our artist friend but I still cannot for the life of me see how one could hold a conversation with Frater X.

One would simply have to listen to the good Frater as he expounds or veils as he sees fit because there is no product to grasp beyond the Frater's own words.

Edited September 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

You are looking for the seven planetary elixirs then.

 

Apparently.

Thank you.

Do forgive an old man's ramblings Frater UFA, you have precipitated a line of thought and my hypothetical 'Frater X' is in no wise intended as any allusion to your good self nor to any of your excellent posts here on TTB.

I am simply thinking out loud here.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Excellent points all Nungali.

I'm really not out to debunk any alchemy or alchemists, it's an interesting topic for chat.

Earlier I'd mentioned Dr Jerry Alan Johnson's alchemical tomes.

Dr J did an excellent interview for TTB earlier this year.

So.

What Dr J calls alchemy.

What Frater X call alchemy.

Your alchemy ( and I am on board with alchemical crop cultivation 100% ).

Our artist chum's alchemy.

And so on....

Some of those have a tangible product for examples.

Dr J's 'graduate' students.

Produce grown via alchemical cultivation methods.

Art produced by alchemical artists.

All 'products'.

Then on the other hand we have our hypothetical 'Frater X ' who discourses on alchemy and alludes to secrets but provides no assessable 'product' beyond bare narrative.

One could argue that Frater X's narrative alchemy is a product insofar as he is producing a story, albeit an enigmatic one and that veiled in mystery.

I can see an outcome from a conversation about alchemy with Dr J, yourself or our artist friend but I still cannot for the life of me see how one could hold a conversation with Frater X.

One would simply have to listen to the good Frater as he expounds or veils as he sees fit because there is no product to grasp beyond the Frater's own words.

 

 

But ... but .... but ....

 

I been practicing that here on TTBs for aaaages ...

[Nungali]

In response to that, I have been invited to create my own set of planetary elixirs and judge based on those results. So I am approaching that exercise with full faith and an understanding of the theory behind it. While I cannot yet state that the physical elixirs have any inherent value, I can say that the process of making them has led to some profound personal experiences.

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

As you make the physical elixirs and "stones", both them as well as yourself go through a spiritual as well as alchemical transformation. One cannot transform the physical substance without also undergoing the same changes within themselves, and vice versa.

 

GrandmasterP, I think you need to get out more . Or perhaps in more, to the lab and experiment a little .

[Nungali]

When he moves into his new house he will find that basement that he didnt realise was down there and ....