Historical connection between Eastern and Western Alchemy?

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Anoesjka]

No, no... I didn't say physical immortality. I said immortality and by that I mean the spiritual aspect only.

 

We can see eye to eye then.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I am intrigued by this. I'm not familiar with the document, having only seen an image or two here and there.

The work in question is the Splendor Solis:

 

Wikipedia on the Splendor Solis

 

Images from the Splendor Solis on Adam Mclean's Alchemy Web Site

 

 

 

 

Edit: First link needed an edit to work.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Nungali]

I am intrigued by this. I'm not familiar with the document, having only seen an image or two here and there. What is 'hermetic agriculture'? I've never heard of such a thing but I love to garden and care for the plants (my wife doesn't understand it at all).

 

Coincidentally, a gnome appeared to me in my dreams last night. It was the first time I have ever seen one, although he told me that we had met before when I was much younger.

 

Well, he would be the one to ask!

 

In the meantime.

 

Hermetic agriculture and gardening ; part 'intuitive' and part 'technology' . If you love gardening then you would have encountered some of the principles.

 

Some are very basic:

 

http://www.biodynamics.in/Rhythm.htm

 

Some are complex 'alchemical type ' operations : like making preparations 500 and 501.

 

500 is started by using the right kind of cow manure; (" According to the Gloria Mundi (the prime material) is …”Found in the country, in the village, in the town, in all things created by god; yet it is despised by all. Rich and poor handle it every day. It is cast into the street by servant maids. Children play with it. Yet no one prizes it, though, next to the human soul, it is … the most precious thing upon earth" ) and placed in an alembic - a cow horn - buried point up in the earth - the athanor- ( " Know that the Salt of which Geber speaks has none of the specific properties of salt, and yet is called a Salt, and is a Salt. It is black and fetid, ... which, by its own operation, is first impure and then pure. It dissolves and coagulates itself, or, as the Sage says, it locks and unlocks itself.... Its chemical development it may undergo in a moist and convenient place, where its moisture (as the Sage says) may be dissolved in the Bath of Mary. He means that it must be warm enough for its water to be distilled, yet not warmer than the excrement of horses, which is not fresh. " ( quotation marks " here are extracts from alchemical texts - not Biodynamic manuals )

 

After it has been transformed inside the horn alembic ( with the help of various critters that come and go in stages , some white and some black and some ....

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/12/opinion/sunday/the-hidden-world-of-soil-under-our-feet.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

all sorts of things go on in a alembic

 

 

then it is stored in the right way, when it is required it needs to be mixed with special energised water ( " "A spirit is within, which by deliberate skill you must separate from the body. Simply disjoin the material part from the vapour. You should then add the cold water of the spring.With this you should unweariedly sprinkle both." ... " If you would know the properties and appearance of this Stone, know that its appearance is aqueous, and that the water is first changed into a stone, then the stone into water, and the water at length into the Medicine."

 

The it is broadcast by sprinkling on the soil (at a special time of day and astrology ... usually Moon Opposition Saturn) for 500 and sprayed into the air for 501 usually at first light so it lifts up as a vapour , " Know, my sons, that the Stone out of which our Art is elaborated, never touches the earth after its generation. If it touch the earth, it is of no use for our purpose, although at its first birth it is generated by the Sun and Moon, and embodies certain earthy elements. It is generated in the earth, then broken, destroyed, and mortified. Out of it arises a vapour which is carried with the wind into the sea, and thence brought back again to the land, where it almost immediately disappears. It must be caught in the air, before it touches the ground; otherwise it evaporates. "

 

501 is made by pulverising quartz crystal rods and packing the powder into a cow horn and burying it during a different cycle of the year " It is generated in the earth, then broken, destroyed, and mortified. Out of it arises a vapour which is carried with the wind " ... 500 is a MOON, winter, evening, earth, rampant generative growth stimulator - 501 is a Sun, Summer, morning, air, archetypal growth stimulator .

 

" As soon as it is borne from the sea to the land, you must promptly seize it, and enclose it in your phial, then manipulate it in the manner described. You may know its coming by the wind, rain, and thunder, which accompany it" - this actually happened on my first mixing 500 with water ... lightening going off ... amazing storm which passed after the broadcasting.

 

"From our earth wells forth a fertilizing fountain,"

"whence flow two precious stones."

(500 & 501)

"The first straightway hastens to the rising of the Sun;

the other makes its way to the setting thereof.

From them fly forth two Eagles, plunge into the

flames, and fall once more to the earth. Both

are furnished with feathers, and Sun and Moon,"

 

Many people have testified to the agricultural improvements seen from these substances. I have witnessed the effects first hand myself.

 

"Now, the seed is a metallic Matter which is liquefied from earth. The seed must be cast into its earth, and there grow, like that of every other created thing. Therefore, we must prepare the earth, or our first Matter, and cast into it the seed, whereupon it will bring forth fruit after its kind. "

 

It does take some time, gradually and many applications over time, eventually the soil itself will change and 'hold the charge' - " You must therefore prepare it as the baker prepares the bread. Take a little of the spirit, and add it to the body, as the baker adds leaven to the meal, till the whole substance is leavened. It is the same with our spirit, or leaven. The Substance must be continuously penetrated with the leaven, until it is wholly leavened."

 

Its a system that can be used with what is at hand on a traditional farm , it is great for places in the Third World and helps to break the dependence on nasty damaging chemical fertilisers - I helped implement a BD programme into the Ivory Coast- where some people got a land grant ,,, after they dug out the land mines they were allowed to start a small scale agriculture; unfortunately they only had one old wheelbarrow and 2 shovels between 35 people (I got photos , they used sticks to dig and carried dirt in their shirts ... and all beaming with happy smiles waving and thanking me for taking an interest in them . They were overjoyed to find a system they could use based on local ingredients;

 

"But take heed that you render thanks unto God for His gracious gift which is hidden from many. He has revealed the secret to you that you may praise His holy name, and succour your needy neighbour. Therefore, take diligent heed, lest you hide the talent committed to your care. Rather put it out at interest for the glory of God, and the good of your neighbour."

 

 

 

 

" Place this one substance in an airtight alembic, and treat it according to the precepts of our Art, which we shall set forth further on. Then the sowing in the field can take place,

 

account of its fruits, entrance, and life, of the mode of opening the garden, and catching a glimpse of the glorious roses, of the way in which they multiply, and bear fruit a thousand-fold."

 

There is a LOT more to it another 5 preparations including 507 where the alembic is a fresh cows skull filled with oak bark and buried in a swamp ... now , when you open this to remove the prep, in front of the local Agricultural school students (yes, they had a segment on organics that included Biodynamics) do not do what my friend did and hit it with an axe ! (They all got splattered with rancid swamp mud decayed cows brains --- I what was inevitable and removed myself to a safe distance).

 

And there is a LOT more than that ... I actually tried to be brief

 

There is a thread I put up around here somewhere about it 'Earth alchemy' or something. I dont think anyone thought much of it.

 

(Like they probably dont think much of this either .... but I have been a working 'alchemist' and I DID get results from it .... so .... shrug . )

Edited July 20, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

FraterUFA's experience with 'the White Queen' and Diana reminded me of experiences that I had circa 1970 with guided meditations given in 'The Old Religion' by FPD, in the now long out of print New Dimensions Red Book. In these, much to my surprise, after working with them for a while, I found them opening up in directions that seemed far more alchemical then I might have imagined. There is definitely a curious undercurrent in Celtic 'fairy' contacts and this might be an interesting area to explore to find a Western internal alchemy and very shamanic too, how chic.

 

 

While I was working on a paper that the above was extracted from ( where I was staying up on the mountain at the Lodge; luxury compared to my one room bush cabin down in the valley, where I am now) I was also working on a 'spirit house' in the garden (because the owner had contracted someone to remove a beautiful tree which should not have been removed and resulted in a very upset dryad, local 'pixies' and me). During the time I was making it I had some of the clearest communication from this realm I have ever had ( trying to figure out how to suspend the floor ; "But we dont need a floor, just make the walls all the way down to the ground, all we need is privacy and our own undisturbed space where we we enter the ground and come back out," etc).

 

This same voice was talking to me when I was writing the alchemical paper. It kept telling me that the essence was 'circulation'.

 

[ I made the house out of bamboo and clay , based on one of these;

 

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

But with higher side walls.

 

( glitch in posting)

 

I talked to my house mate a bit about it;

 

"What? Fairies and alchemy together now is it?" - it even seemed strange to me at the time - was also sick so I thought I might have a weird thing going on ... but now .... ???

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Well, it looks like I may have to put more time into this than I thought.

Regarding all this Hermetic gardening, I would recommend:

Armand Barbault, Gold of a Thousand Mornings

Another long out of print book, though apparently there are PDFs available online, but be warned according so some accounts I read some of the PDFs are not complete. In searching for copies I found these interesting sites:

Gold of a Thousand Mornings with interesting pictures of gardens and one of Barbault in his laboratory:

'The Polish Rider' on Gold of a Thousand Mornings

And this one with pictures that is very interesting:

Interesting pictures of Barbault

I thought Barbault got a little carried away with an interesting idea based on one interpretation of some texts, but his ideas are certainly relevant to the Hermetic gardening motif.

If I have time I will post on some of the other ideas that have been mentioned.

[Nungali]

Well, I'll be damned. Of course, I've heard about Biodynamics and Steiner. I've talked to several enologists here in the United States and France and everyone agreed that biodynamic grapes made for the best wine, by far. Nobody could tell me anything about why/how it may work other than perhaps it attracted useful critters to the vineyard (this is not a workable explanation because organic farming does the same and they claim there is a difference).

 

Some of our ( I was head preparations maker for a while for Biodynamic Agriculture Australia) best customers were wine makers ... according to them , one of the chief benefits was the effect on 'Terroir' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terroir

... some of their wines won prizes.

 

I looked into it and was unable to find any kind of theoretical underpinning... simply "instructions". This is the first explanation I've seen (and a very lucid one, if you consider that it is alchemy, after all).

 

Thats because many BDers are either gardeners or "Steinerites' , not with an alchemical view. Steiner may have understood all that, but these people are Steiner followers, not 'fellow researchers' (which Steiner urged them be) - eg. I came into a large supply of crushed pure topaz 'sand' and suggested its usage to make a preparation. I was told it has to be quartz. I explained what the quartz does, as mineral with certain qualities, and how all minerals have qualities not just quartz and that can be used for different more specific purposes. It was met with a and "Steiner didnt say to use topaz he said to use quartz." (Ignoring the fact that were replacing some ingredients with native ones - like casurina pine needles. .[ I found this typical in such groups , once at a shared lunch at work with visitors (how embarrassing ! ) one of the 'Steiner Experts' pipes up , in a 'cultured' accent , "You know, Steiner says that once one sets out upon the path of initiation the first thing one encounters is ;The Dweller on the Threshold'." Another ; "Oh .... how does one go about setting out on the path of initiation ?"

The first looks surprised and then dropping back to her normal Aussie 'twang'; " Oh .... I dont know."

 

Parroting ... repeat parroting , the same IMO with the BD applications ... but I guess thats why many people seek teachers, gurus, masters ?

 

That stuff is for Steiner to work out ... not us . I was also surprised that I was the only one, including the then BDAA CEO and the current preps maker that had read all of Steiners 'Agricultural Lectures' (most said 'Oh, you only need to read chapters .... to know how to do it. ') Reading all of it will help, especially concepts like the farm being an 'entity', etc.

 

 

Last year I began to become more conscious about my garden. I had noticed over the years that no matter what I did, the soil was hard. To me, it seemed "diseased" althought I know that's not very acceptable terminology. But I could never grow an onion larger than a ping pong ball. My pumpkins aborted themselves. Fruit just didn't taste very good.

 

So last year, I stopped using chemicals and pesticides and there was a difference. This year, I rebuilt half of the garden soil using mulch sheet techniques (I wanted to compare it to the other untreated half). I admit to trying to project a "good vibe" into the ground while doing this. I walked through the garden daily, taking are to be mindful and projecting thoughts of serenity and abundance to the plants.

 

A similar process is required when making the preps ... thats what I meant by the 'state of the operator'

 

Yes, it's hocus pocus. But this year, the garden is quite different. The onions are larger. The strawberries had a bumper crop and some were downright amazing. I grew a carrot for the first time. Heck, there's a watermelon growing out there right now. I tell you that I have never been able to get a watermelon plant to grow, much less bear fruit. And the holy grail, a giant pumpkin, appears to be on the way soon.

 

It's not just the treated half. The entire garden is growing. Yes, the soil is still hard on the untreated half... I had to dig a carrot out with a shovel, but at least it wasn't a pickaxe like last year.

 

There are various reasons for this, many energies (even basic ones like phosphorus) can be transferred underground from one area to another by fungal filaments through the soil ... separated plants and soil areas can communicate and supply each others needs. There is a BD prep for this ; it 'increases soil intelligence' ... if one doesnt understand the processes, it makes little sense, what the prep does is supply extra energy and ingredients to assist the growth and formation of such networks.

 

However there is a general 'other effect' as well. A neighbour commented on my patch once that it all appears to be 'glowing' and radiating a vital energy. I reminded him about the biodynamics. he said "But I use them too." Some see them as 'offerings to the elemental beings' and some Christian biodynamic farmers make a '3 kings' prep for that ( frankincense, gold and myrrh ) . Its a key ingredient ... there is an old local farmer down the road , a lovely guy! To me he is a wise shaman, he uses none of these techniques (not sure what he does use ... perhaps 50 years on his patch helped ...) but boy does he know what.s going on and what's happening . He was the last farmer in the valley that the milk truck used to come too (too old now, he breeds stud) apparently his farm has never used fertilisers or pesticides.

 

People used to have to do all sorts of stuff before the advent of artificial fertilisers. There is much 'folk tradition' as well (which is also a source of BD techniques ... shhh ) Clay singing seems to be the source of 2 principles in BD;

 

1. Clay is also used as a medium / joiner for 500 / 501 , and is prepared as well in a buried cow horn ... clay platelets pay a large part in allowing nutrients to pass from soil to plants http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=the+role+of+clay+platelets+in+agricultural+fertility&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=OmLMU-HUGIKj8AWJ6YGYDw&ved=0CBoQgQMwAA

 

2. There is an old story about .... who had a lush and growing farm. The neighbour wanted to know his secret so he sent his sons to spy on what he did. The old farmer had a large wooden barrel filled with water, he was stirring it one way and sprinkling powdered clay into it while singing notes up the scale, then he would go the other way and sing notes down the scale. HE did this for a very long time then took some of the water in a bucket and got a small branch and dipping it in went around the farm sprinkling it here and there. This is the basic folk treatment that turned into the BD prep mixing vortex technique (without the singing) into water done just before broadcasting.

 

 

So I am really intrigued by this approach. Your post has quite a bit of information so it will take me some time to digest it. But thank you for putting it out there!

 

Frater UFA

 

Edit: I wanted to add that there are critters out there now, too. Ladybugs and butterflies, tons of spiders and little guys crawling around that I've never seen before. I picked up a worm the other day that was so tough he tried to bite me. The ground is very much alive and does seem to respond to the conscious efforts of the artist/gardener.

 

Eventually all sorts of critters will flock in, including birds.

 

My neighbour across the river was getting frustrated. His cows kept getting through the fences, coming over the river and on to our field to eat the grass. "My grass is just as good, if not better, I dont know why they keep coming here." I told him what I thought and he probably thinks I am nuts. I offered to treat his paddocks and he got very cautious, thought I might be polluting them. I explained it was made from cow manure and water but he didnt like the idea. Apparently he liked the idea of trying to find his cows twice a week better?

 

Of course if you eat the products, it will spread into you.

 

Just a word on your soil; obviously it needs air and 'lifting up' keep pumping the organic matter and compost.

 

BD compost (using the compost preps) is the most amazing compost I have ever made, rich, dark, glowing, full of life, you could stick your hand in and grab and pull out a large chunk that stuck together about 3 times the size of your hand, and it was incredibly light in weight. (Of course just making compost is an alchemical operation and goes through similar stages)

 

http://biodynamics.net.au/about-biodynamics/what-are-the-biodynamic-preparations/

 

these are 'curious' as well

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=steiners+drawings+of+minerals+and+chemicals&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2GzMU4_PEs_78QW8tILoDQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1093&bih=527&dpr=1.25

 

 

Here are the lectures

 

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA327/English/BDA1958/Ag1958_index.html

Edited July 21, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Now I am going to devote some time to reading Donalds last post and links.

 

[Yes, he is very busy, but occasionally drops in to cast pearls in one or two lines .... that open up some very worthwhile doors and leads to hours of .... ]

 

[Nungali]

 

 

'The Polish Rider' on Gold of a Thousand Mornings

 

Wonderful! Yes there is much in there, and much in there in light of this thread to comment on ! Some perhaps a little too technical ... or specific. Just this seemingly simple statement ; " Very often he is guided by his wife, perhaps in dreams, perhaps in a series of paranormal perceptions in which she, in a medium-like trance, perceives things more or less intensely in terms of images." - in light of FraUFA's first post. Also, I imagine , and have observed part of, the relationship between the farmer I mentioned above, and his wife, and the one I imagine he has with his 'farm wife'; the soul of the 'entity' that makes up his farm. I have also seen such a relationship with the farmer himself (and Steiner writes about this) ; Pa just seems to do nothing at night, just sit there and gaze into space, puffing his pipe occasionally. Then, all of a sudden he tells his sons " We will plow and seed the bottom paddock tomorrow. ." The sons are aghast as its far too early, but it is done. Soon after the rains come unseasonably early. I also have fond memories of another farm I used to stay at; Mum was cripple but would be out there on crutches and calipers helping to round up and sort the sheep into pens, she had a giant loom where she made tapestries from the wool with other things woven in, all of it, including dyes came from the farm. They were a great couple and wonderful people. ... this idea of the 'soul' of the farm, and of the self, and visions and dreams of 'the' woman, has to do with why I suggested a 'Jungian alchemical' approach as well.

 

 

 

And this one with pictures that is very interesting:

 

Interesting pictures of Barbault

 

I thought Barbault got a little carried away with an interesting idea based on one interpretation of some texts, but his ideas are certainly relevant to the Hermetic gardening motif.

 

 

Yes ... I get carried away myself in that area ... but there are some interesting speculations; like, the details in the backgrounds of the Splendour Solis plates. ... Not to mention the whole , future thingo and what modern agriculture has done to the fauna, flora, food supply, water, etc. .... its just that goddamn .... 'wring as much as I can get out of it for myself and damn the consequences' thing

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well, it looks like I may have to put more time into this than I thought.

 

Regarding all this Hermetic gardening, I would recommend:

 

Armand Barbault, Gold of a Thousand Mornings

 

Another long out of print book, though apparently there are PDFs available online, but be warned according so some accounts I read some of the PDFs are not complete. In searching for copies I found these interesting sites:

 

Gold of a Thousand Mornings with interesting pictures of gardens and one of Barbault in his laboratory:

 

'The Polish Rider' on Gold of a Thousand Mornings

 

And this one with pictures that is very interesting:

 

Interesting pictures of Barbault

 

I thought Barbault got a little carried away with an interesting idea based on one interpretation of some texts, but his ideas are certainly relevant to the Hermetic gardening motif.

 

If I have time I will post on some of the other ideas that have been mentioned.

 

Not all PDF versions are incomplete .

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

Well, the term Alchemy is related to the original word for Egypt. If one reads Davidovitts, one might come to the conslusion that the first alchemy in Egypt related to stone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Davidovits

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I was able to find a very detailed overview of the history of alchemy in the first module of the AlchemyStudy.com course. They state that alchemy had its origins in Egypt and spread from there to Chaldea, Sumeria, and Babylon. Although the first full translation of the Emerald Tablet dates back to an Arab text written in the 7th century, they point out in a rather convincing fashion that phrases from the Emerald Tablet (although not the full text) appear in Egypt as far back as the 14th century BCE in Egypt. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Setting aside for now the whole issue of translation, a few quotes do not a complete world-view make, and were these passages phrases 'from the Emerald tablet' or phrases which were used in the Emerald Tablet, possibly because they were commonplaces of the time, which are no longer well known?

 

Aside from their possibly biased interpretation of some historical texts, AlchemyStudy.com seems to be a good site, though for reasons that may be a little clearer later in this post I am a little leery of their or anyone else's 'spiritual alchemy'.

 

I find this fascinating, in no small part because I was under the impression that alchemy originated in China and slowly spread to the west (probably being diluted along the way). If this history is roughly correct, then the opposite is true... it is a western teaching which was later adopted by the Taoists. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Most people don't realize that 'cultural diffusion' theories of the spread of esoteric ideas actually play into the reductionist/materialist world-view, since if they are spread like an intellectual contagion, by direct contact, and are not independent discoveries, it is easier to argue that they are not about realities, but fantasies. So I am very careful about such ideas and only endorse them when the evidence is very 'concrete', such as seems to be the case of the origin of 'Indian' astrology in Alexandrian Greco-Chaldean Astrology:

 

The Yavanjataka

 

That is fascinating. The evidence pointing to the lack of stratified fossils is compelling. What's more, it is said that there exist hieroglyphs which state that the pyramids could not have been built without the secrets of alchemy. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I found the Davidovits article interesting also, but it is not 'concrete' proof of an ancient Egyptian origin to alchemy. Again the question of translation exists in the background, to the question, which hieroglyphs, where and from what period?

 

I often find it interesting to look at the 'Talk' sections of Wikipedia pages. Here are some quotes that imply how complex some of these historical issues are. If you don't know how to find the 'Talk' page, it is very easy. Up at the top left and top right are little tabs. The first one is the 'Article', right next to it it 'Talk', where the various editing changes are discussed. On the right is 'Read', which is the article again, 'Edit', which you can only to if you have signed up, and very interestingly 'History', where you can look back at previous versions. The links in the quotes below will take you directly to the talk pages.

 

Wikipedia from talk page on Alchemy article:

 

major changes?

It must be remembered that Alchemy is a pre-cartesian activity and divisions like Philosophical, Mystical and Scientific are almost meaningless.--Alchemist Jack (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

 

I concur with the above. Alchemy never pretended to be science or proto-science - when alchemy began there was no such thing as science, just technologies, recipes to achieve this and that, passed from master to apprentice and kept in secret. Considering it an "ancient study of science" or a pseudo-science is, at least, weird and self-contradictory. Alchemists called themselves philosophers, and although the term might loosely mean "one who studied bodies of knowledge before science (the scientific method) existed", they were always quite careful in stating that even their metals had little to do with the common metals -- they were more interested in the metal's souls than the metal's dead bodies (the common metal). Yet this is a difficult matter to present, due to alchemy's double nature, a practical manipulative one and a meditative one. It's not a "either-or" situation. Both attitudes, the technology and the wisdom, occured at least since Zosimos; although Marie-Louise von Franz states that it occurred long before him, as the practical execution of the technologies would be accompanied by religious chants (Egypt mummies) or the melting of ores done at an astrologically selected time. It's as if you selected an appropriate day and put up a ceremony to change your engine's oil or do a PET scan. --Xyzt1234 (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

 

(What did metal's souls and dead bodies mean to an alcemist? Both the above statement and the one that follows here are unwittinlgy being influenced by the very Cartesianism that the first statement warns about. On the talk page the statement below actually directly preceeds the above statements, but is chrologically later. The statements that conclude it about 'statements' below, are actually the two above. ZYD)

 

It sounds like the person who wrote the above statement has mainly read about what is called Philosophical Alchemy. In fact, Practical Alchemy is characterized by major contributions leading to modern-day chemistry and science. For example, the Chinese you mention actually developed important methods in the separation of metals, especially separating gold and silver. Practical methods, not spiritual metaphors. It is important to remember the difficulty of using these methods in Europe, where people had to disguise what they were doing lest they be seen as sorcerers (chemistry was mysterious) or that they would be perceived as having more gold than their King, who would seize their property (much like Russia is doing right now to its successful businessmen). So, they wrote cryptic texts that are only understandable if one also understands the properties of the metals and minerals involved in the process of extracting, say, gold, from ore. When one knows the properties of these materials, one can easily read through the lines of the poetry. People did find these chemical processes impressive, tantamount to discovering immortality, but Francis Bacon famously wrote how disgusted he was to see the preponderance of uneducated people successfully attributing superstition to the practical chemistry that was in fact taking place by those legitimate alchemists doing important work. I think the statements below are also ignoring this very important fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.94.52 (talk) 21:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC) (From Wikipedia Alchemy Ariticle Talk page, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

And speaking about 'closet Cartesianism', the whole following discussion continues against a backdrop of ideas derived from Rene Descartes, which are not merely completely irrelevant to understanding alchemy, create nothing but confusion when applied thoughtlessly, as they almost invariably are:

 

Issues with Article, New Contributor

Why is that? I changed it to "It is generally accepted that alchemy was protoscience, a precursor to modern day chemistry, having provided many procedures, equipment and names of substances that are still in use." Which says the same thing. I removed the word "practical" because this makes an assumption that the was always difference between practical or spiritual alchemy, whereas these are actually two modern interpretations; the original texts do not make such distinction, but the issue is what the original texts actually meant. I removed the word "inorganic" because it implies that alchemy only affects inorganic chemistry, which is not true, as it affected chemistry in general. In fact, if alchemy only affected inorganic chemistry then it should not be considered a protoscience for chemistry itself. I would like to hear your thoughts on why my could be considered unacceptable. Will Timony, Ph.D (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

 

Newton and Newtonianism by James E. Force, Sarah Hutton, p211

"Atwood's treatise touched off a huge resurgence of interest in alchemy, but almost entirely within the context of Victorian occultism. Hundreds of books, including adulterated "translations" of alchemical classics, appeared in the second half of the nineteenth century, all but a few very embracing this new "spiritual interpretation" of alchemy. (Italic in the original, ZYD) According to this interpretation, alchemy had little to do with chemistry, and was aimed instead at the internal purification, spiritual exaltation and perfection of the would-be adept."

 

New Age Religion and Western Culture by Wouter J. Hanegraaf, p512

"Although the history of spiritual and psychological interpretations of alchemy prior to Jung is in urgent need of further investigation, what is known at present confirms by previous conclusions. Jung's view of spiritual alchemy, like his view of gnosticism, was rooted in 19th-century esoteric/Romantic and occultist worldviews."

 

Some of the peer-reviewed sources you mentioned above are excellent sources for supporting the philosophical, theological and prophetical aspects of alchemy. I'm not and was not and never will, argue against these aspects. But none of them support your statements, such as this one: "In the eyes of Hermetic practitioners, the heart of alchemy is spiritual. Transmutation of lead into gold is presented as an analogy for personal transmutation, purification, and perfection" You asked to differentiate between these terms but you're attempting to use sources for one in order to support the other. There are virtually unlimited references in alchemical sources applying to the spirit, soul, God, life, anything else you can think of. This does not support the statements you are making. It simply means that the alchemists thought science, philosophy and theology were are intricately connected, which they are probably right about. But, this is not what you have been editing into the articles; you have been adding modern spiritual alchemy (new age) ideas which arose in the 19th century, and which have been academically proven to be historically invalid. The theological and philosophical aspects of alchemy can be emphasized. But don't pretend that this is what you have been doing or this is what these sources represent; you have been editing in spiritual interpretations from unreliable sources and mentioning sources that do not support your interpretation. Will Timony, Ph.D (talk • contribs) 07:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC) (From Wikipedia Alchemy Ariticle Talk page, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Simply put, by 1800 there were few people indeed who could understand alchemy and it's literature on its own terms, by 1900, there were practically none, thus the irrelevance of most modern interpretations of alchemy.

 

And finally since in the above discussion, Zosimos is specifically mentioned as an early 'spiritual' alchemist:

 

The external processes of metallic transmutation—the transformations of lead and copper into silver and gold (see the Stockholm papyrus)—had always to mirror an inner process of purification and redemption. Wrote Zosimos in Concerning the true Book of Sophe, the Egyptian, and of the Divine Master of the Hebrews and the Sabaoth Powers:

 

There are two sciences and two wisdoms, that of the Egyptians and that of the Hebrews, which latter is confirmed by divine justice. The science and wisdom of the most excellent dominate the one and the other. Both originate in olden times. Their origin is without a king, autonomous and immaterial; it is not concerned with material and corruptible bodies, it operates, without submitting to strange influences, supported by prayer and divine grace.

 

The symbol of chemistry is drawn from the creation by its adepts, who cleanse and save the divine soul bound in the elements, and who free the divine spirit from its mixture with the flesh.

 

As the sun is, so to speak, a flower of the fire and (simultaneously) the heavenly sun, the right eye of the world, so copper when it blooms—that is when it takes the color of gold, through purification—becomes a terrestrial sun, which is king of the earth, as the sun is king of heaven.[7]

 

Greek alchemists used what they called ὕδωρ θεῖον, meaning both divine water, and sulphurous water.[8] For Zosimos, the alchemical vessel was imagined as a baptismal font, and the tincturing vapours of mercury and sulphur were likened to the purifying waters of baptism, which perfected and redeemed the Gnostic initiate. Zosimos drew upon the Hermetic image of the krater or mixing bowl, a symbol of the divine mind in which the Hermetic initiate was "baptized" and purified in the course of a visionary ascent through the heavens and into the transcendent realms. Similar ideas of a spiritual baptism in the "waters" of the transcendent Pleroma are characteristic of the Sethian Gnostic texts unearthed at Nag Hammadi.[9] This image of the alchemical vessel as baptismal font is central to his Visions, discussed below. (Wikipedia on Zosimos, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Based on what I know of the Hellenistic milieu, I find nothing in here that marks it as specifically 'spiritual', but I do see metaphors about metals that are developed throughout the history of alchemy, in particular the notions of soul and spirit, which recur as sulfur and mercury. There are aspects of it which do require a closer look, for example, what does a phrase like, 'The external processes of metallic transmutation . . . had always to mirror an inner process of purification and redemption' mean? Does that mean that an inner work must go on a the same time, or that a 'spiritual' process was the model for the metallic operations being undertaken? Looking at this through glasses forged between 1700 and 1900, will not be helpful.

 

Basically, to ask a question about Zosimos which is not being asked about his so called 'spiritual' alchemy, why would Zosimos use obscure operations drawn from metallurgy to explain spiritual procedures? Why doesn't anyone interpret these as being the metaphorical extension of spiritual procedures to metallurgy?

 

The purpose of the above is to stimulate questions, not to provide answers and speaking of questions, here's one, why is Brandy called a distilled spirit? And yes, I do know why.

[Nungali]

'Concrete proof ' very good!

 

Obviously some block in the buildings Davidovitts cites also have carved blocks ... you can see the chisle marks, and observe the half quarried blocks in near by quarries.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Nungali]

I dont see a real problem here as long as one doesnt try to .... 'rear project into history'.

 

Why cant we use the principles of alchemy as an analogy to spiritual development?

 

Isnt part of hermetics transposing processes from nature into spiritual or psychological ones?

 

Or should I say 'Neo-hermetics' ?

 

I use tarot much the same way, it offers a great psychological spiritual map, when viewed a certain way IMO ... yet people totally poo-poo that as they can prove that historically tarot was never that, it was just a card game.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Wow, what a great post. So much to learn from here.

. . .one document jumps out at me that seems to contradict the theory that the spiritual interpretation of alchemy is a 19th century invention . . . is the Sophic Hydrolith, written in the 17th century. It would be quite a stretch to treat it as anything but.

 

Wow, what a great post. So much to learn from here.: Thank you for the compliment.

 

I remember reading the Sophic Hydrolith forty or so years ago, and while I thought it Christian symbolism interesting, I also thought it was a little too dense to put much time into.

 

I choose the quotes and what I emphasized in them with some care:

 

Issues with Article, New Contributor

There are virtually unlimited references in alchemical sources applying to the spirit, soul, God, life, anything else you can think of. This does not support the statements you are making. It simply means that the alchemists thought science, philosophy and theology were are intricately connected, which they are probably right about. But, this is not what you have been editing into the articles; you have been adding modern spiritual alchemy (new age) ideas which arose in the 19th century, and which have been academically proven to be historically invalid. The theological and philosophical aspects of alchemy can be emphasized.Will Timony, Ph.D (talk • contribs) 07:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC) (From Wikipedia Alchemy Ariticle Talk page, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

The Sophic Hydrolith can be seen as an extreme example of 'references in alchemical sources applying to the spirit, soul, God,'; with a particular emphasis on Christian symbolism and I will remind you of what I emphasized here:

 

major changes?

So, they wrote cryptic texts that are only understandable if one also understands the properties of the metals and minerals involved in the process of extracting, say, gold, from ore. When one knows the properties of these materials, one can easily read through the lines of the poetry. People did find these chemical processes impressive, tantamount to discovering immortality, . . .—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.94.52 (talk) 21:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC) (From Wikipedia Alchemy Ariticle Talk page, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Thanks to its dense Christian symbolism it is a very 'cryptic' text, but is it much different, except in quantity and density, from what is said about Zosimos:

 

Greek alchemists used what they called ὕδωρ θεῖον, meaning both divine water, and sulphurous water.[8] For Zosimos, the alchemical vessel was imagined as a baptismal font, and the tincturing vapours of mercury and sulphur were likened to the purifying waters of baptism, which perfected and redeemed the Gnostic initiate. Zosimos drew upon the Hermetic image of the krater or mixing bowl, a symbol of the divine mind in which the Hermetic initiate was "baptized" and purified in the course of a visionary ascent through the heavens and into the transcendent realms. Similar ideas of a spiritual baptism in the "waters" of the transcendent Pleroma are characteristic of the Sethian Gnostic texts unearthed at Nag Hammadi.[9] This image of the alchemical vessel as baptismal font is central to his Visions, discussed below. (Wikipedia on Zosimos, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

and my response to it as being the application of religious mysteries as paradigmatic metaphors for metallurgical operations?

 

Also, to get back to modern 'psychological' alchemy, which is the basis of most of what passes for 'spiritual' alchemy these days, what is said above about being able to 'read through the lines of the poetry' if 'one also understands the properties of the metals and minerals involved', has a very real relevance to my observations about Carl Jung's interpretation of alchemy and the art of memory:

 

Regarding Carl Jung, if more people were familiar with the art of memory, Jung's interpretation of alchemy would not be nearly as influential as it is. Once on reads Frances Yates' The Art of Memory, it becomes an open question whether the colorful symbols used in some alchemical writings are 'images, spontaneously arising from the collective unconscious', or cleverly constructed artifacts designed at once to obscure an arcane art and aid the memory of the initiate. (Emphasis added, ZYD)

 

One should definitely read Frances Yates The Art of Memory as part of ones background studies to investigation of alchemy and its literature.

 

One reason I am emphasizing this is to bring to the fore the extent to which modern ideas about matter and spirit, based on the 'Scientific Revolution' of the Seventeenth Century and the 'Romantic Reaction' of the Nineteenth Century, make reading back into the Sixteenth Century and earlier very difficult. This is a problem that I have emphasized in my posts in the 'Year of Reading Agrippa' thread and which I will examine in greater detail if I am able to do so.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I dont see a real problem here as long as one doesnt try to .... 'rear project into history'.

 

Why cant we use the principles of alchemy as an analogy to spiritual development?

 

Isnt part of hermetics transposing processes from nature into spiritual or psychological ones?

 

Or should I say 'Neo-hermetics' ?

 

I use tarot much the same way, it offers a great psychological spiritual map, when viewed a certain way IMO ... yet people totally poo-poo that as they can prove that historically tarot was never that, it was just a card game. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Yes, by all means call them Neo-Hermetic. I have no objection whatsoever to creativity, and one of the things that I may be able to do here is clarify what may be historically considered Hermetic, so that something can legitimately be called Neo-Hermetic.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA