Historical connection between Eastern and Western Alchemy?

[stefos]

Thank you folks (as I don't know both your genders ) nor does it matter.

 

Alchemy is interesting........My current understanding is that alchemical experiments were done both in a lab

and spiritually speaking.

 

As someone who's studied eastern tantricism, both Buddhist & so called "Hindu" I can see the similarities:

 

Alchemy has the 3 great ingredients: Salt, Mercury, Sulphur (?)

The subtle energy lines in the body are: Ida, Pingala and Sushumna (Sanskrit names). I can't remember the Buddhist names but they coincide exactly.

 

Alchemy deals with the reconciliation/unification/bypassing of the male/female duality.

Tantrism deals with the unification/bypassing of the male/female duality as well.

 

In Alchemy, the colors red & white figure predominantly and as symbols of gold & silver

In Tantrism, the colors red & white (in the "Hindu" lineage, denote the solar & lunar channels)

 

In the final analysis, I believe that Rosicrucianism incorporated alchemical motifs along with magic (not Alistair Crowley folks...don't associate me and him) and Kabbalah and dealt with transformation, spiritually and perhaps physiologically as well. In Tantrism, both "Hindu" and Buddhist, the body is seen as something with can be actually changed by the particular practices of each tradition.

As an example, Tibetan Buddhists believe in the rainbow body and in Kriya yoga, oxygen saturates the bloodstream in effect slowing the aging process down.

 

More to come,

Stefos

Edited September 4, 2014 by stefos

[Nungali]

Alchemy deals with the reconciliation/unification/bypassing of the male/female duality.

 

Via ......

 

If you havent read this, you might find it interesting.

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1908088.Mercurius

 

I have a post around somewhere on triplicity ???

 

[sometimes it seems that everything relates to duplicity connected by triplicity ( with an extension to the manifest {or back to} the 'one thing'. ) - I can PM you the source doc if you are interested. ]

 

The astro-psychological implications with Mercury Mars Venus as personal internal psychological dynamics has an interesting correlation ( re: " the reconciliation/unification/bypassing of the male/female duality") and also its 'higher' relationship to the Uranus Pluto Neptune transpersonal dynamics. [Which creates two triangles that need to be regulated by a third 'gateway' or valve' Chiron Saturn Jupiter ... the extension into manifestation is where they all interact with the socio cultural environment via the personna in a feedback loop ( a bit like Malkuth) . ]

 

 

.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Nungali

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[Michael Sternbach]

Alchemy is interesting........My current understanding is that alchemical experiments were done both in a lab

and spiritually speaking.

 

This is obvious to me, too.

 

Alchemy has the 3 great ingredients: Salt, Mercury, Sulphur (?)

 

Yes, these are the three alchemical principles according to Paracelsus. (He had forerunners in this.)

 

Alchemy deals with the reconciliation/unification/bypassing of the male/female duality.

 

Tantrism deals with the unification/bypassing of the male/female duality as well.

 

See in particular the illustrations in "The Rosary of the Philosophers."

 

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/rosary0.html

 

In Alchemy, the colors red & white figure predominantly and as symbols of gold & silver

In Tantrism, the colors red & white (in the "Hindu" lineage, denote the solar & lunar channels)

 

The White Stone is Lunar, the Red Stone is Solar. I (for one) don't think the parallel is accidental at all.

 

In the final analysis, I believe that Rosicrucianism incorporated alchemical motifs along with magic (not Alistair Crowley folks...don't associate me and him) and Kabbalah and dealt with transformation, spiritually and perhaps physiologically as well. In Tantrism, both "Hindu" and Buddhist, the body is seen as something with can be actually changed by the particular practices of each tradition.

 

Don't worry, it's very unlikely that anybody would associate you with Alistair Crowley.

 

As an example, Tibetan Buddhists believe in the rainbow body and in Kriya yoga, oxygen saturates the bloodstream in effect slowing the aging process down.

 

Interesting... Do you have a reference/link for Oxygen playing such a role?

 

More to come,

Stefos

 

I look forward to it.

Michael

[stefos]

See in particular the illustrations in "The Rosary of the Philosophers."

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/rosary0.html

The White Stone is Lunar, the Red Stone is Solar. I (for one) don't think the parallel is accidental at all.

 

Don't worry, it's very unlikely that anybody would associate you with Alistair Crowley.

 

Interesting... Do you have a reference/link for Oxygen playing such a role?

Hi,

 

In response to your answers:

 

A. Red & White...no I don't think it's coincidental.

 

B. Crowley....yes, I was tired and lazy when I wrote that.

 

C. The reference is "Autobiography of a yogi" by Paramahamsa Yogananda.

He says that Kriya yog is oxygenating the blood so that the physical body lives longer. I believe he states that it changes into light or light like essence when practiced enough. I probably am mistaken however!

 

Toodles,

Stefos

 

P.S. I look forward to "interesting things" from you too!

Edited September 6, 2014 by stefos

[9th]

There is a direct link between tantric alchemy and hermetic alchemy in regards to operations involving mercury.

[stefos]

There is a direct link between tantric alchemy and hermetic alchemy in regards to operations involving mercury.

 

Hi and thanks,

 

I don't think that like is Buddhism.......I think that like is Yogic in nature and I believe the main person is Paracelsus

due to his travels. One thing I noticed was his magical squares: In yogic circles, magic squares are still used today.

Paracelsus in his famous "Books" portrays the same vein of expression...not exactly the same however.

 

Various other groups like the Troubadors and Alchemists and such either did possess or wanted to posses these practical teachings and hence the songs of the Troubadors and the Alchemical plates of the alchemists.

 

Ultimately, the Rosicrucians used plates for the same reason as the alchemists....Hidden in plain sight.

 

I suppose that maybe they had this knowledge and hence the need for secrecy while trying to get peoples interests perked up in order to search them out within each respective group/order.

 

Stefos

[GrandmasterP]

The Alchemists Guild ( Ankh Morpork)

Motto: OMNIS QVIS CORVSCAT EST OR.

All that glitters is gold.

Likely the loudest among the guilds in Ankh-Morpork, but not politically powerful.

The Alchemists' Guild is known more for its failures than its successes. That is to say, more people (in fact, everybody in the city) are aware of the explosions produced by the guild's members rather than the actual products and services they render.

The guild building is blown up a few times a month, and is therefore under a perpetual state of repair. Supposedly, an alchemist's goal is to turn things into gold; it is strange, then, because it should be hard to make metals explode. In reality, the alchemists also mess with all sorts of chemical reactions.

Their development of the Octo-cellulose film led to the moving pictures industry, and the guild president was, for quite a while, leader of the industry (in Moving Pictures). Another notable project was to transmute things into artificial ivory, so that billiard balls could be made without going to the trouble of getting the tusks off the elephants (appears in Men at Arms). Alchemists dabble in everything they can get their hands on.

The Alchemists' Guild would make a very bad neighbour.

Edited September 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[stefos]

The Alchemists Guild ( Ankh Morpork)

Motto: OMNIS QVIS CORVSCAT EST OR.

All that glitters is gold.

Likely the loudest among the guilds in Ankh-Morpork, but not politically powerful.

The Alchemists' Guild is known more for its failures than its successes. That is to say, more people (in fact, everybody in the city) are aware of the explosions produced by the guild's members rather than the actual products and services they render.

The guild building is blown up a few times a month, and is therefore under a perpetual state of repair. Supposedly, an alchemist's goal is to turn things into gold; it is strange, then, because it should be hard to make metals explode. In reality, the alchemists also mess with all sorts of chemical reactions.

Their development of the Octo-cellulose film led to the moving pictures industry, and the guild president was, for quite a while, leader of the industry (in Moving Pictures). Another notable project was to transmute things into artificial ivory, so that billiard balls could be made without going to the trouble of getting the tusks off the elephants (appears in Men at Arms). Alchemists dabble in everything they can get their hands on.

The Alchemists' Guild would make a very bad neighbour.

 

Hi and Thanks

 

At this point in my game (i.e. life) I'm not pursuing alchemical things although I like the alchemical plates I've seen in reproductions of old texts.

 

That's about it.

 

Stefos

[GrandmasterP]

Very wise.

It's not really a pastime for a grown man isn't dabbling in 'western' ( transmuting lead into gold etc) alchemy et al.

Outdoor hobbies are far healthier in the long run.

It's apples and bananas again as far as labelling goes.

Ask people on the streets of Oxford what alchemy means to them and you'll be told about alembics, the philosophers stone and Newton.

Those in the know may also mention the stuffed crocodile ( essential for ambience and ordered from the alchemist supply catalogue).

The cultivation 'alchemists' such as Dr J and his ilk are doing something completely different to Newton , for example; or other commentators on alchemy when discussed as a term of ( admittedly historical) common use west of Suez.

Our 'western' alchemist chums on here may beg to differ but quite frankly, by any rational measure for their claims; they are just fecking about and kidding no one but themselves.

There's no harm at all in that.

Many men over many years have joined secret societies and hankered after arcane mysteries with added 'degrees, ranks and titles'.

It's a guy thang.

For some guys.

Nobody else gives a toss but they do no harm and, in the case of the Masons or the Buffs for two examples ; they do a lot for charity.

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Zhongyongdaoist]

it is strange, then, because it should be hard to make metals explode.

 

Actually it isn't, as anyone with a basic knowledge of what they purport to be talking about would know:

 

Fulminating about Mercury and Gold and Silver and many other metals

[GrandmasterP]

Thank you.

That was a quote from a writer of humorous fantasy fiction ( Terry Pratchett).

Not meant to be taken seriously.

Respecting, as one must; anyone's chose path - it's still OK to chuckle at silliness sometimes.

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[9th]

It's not really a pastime for a grown man isn't dabbling in 'western' ( transmuting lead into gold etc) alchemy et al.

Outdoor hobbies are far healthier in the long run.

 

Our 'western' alchemist chums on here may beg to differ but quite frankly, by any rational measure for their claims; they are just fecking about and kidding no one but themselves.

 

Respecting, as one must; anyone's chose path - it's still OK to chuckle at silliness sometimes.

 

Honestly it doesnt sound like you have any respect for western alchemy at all. As it seems you are concerned about issues of integrity, you might as well be consciously up front and honest about your own views at least... as opposed to being unconsciously up front and honest, as demonstrated above.

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA

[9th]

What's the link?

 

 

Mercury, or parada in Sanskrit, has a long and detailed history of use. To the practitioner of the Tantras (and the medieval alchemists), it was the key to the ultimate sacrament. The purpose of this article is to share some of my own discoveries on this fascinating and forgotten subject.

Parada traditionally has many different names, most of which are obscure synonyms in the Sandhya Bhasya (Skt.), or Twilight Language. The Twilight Language is an intentional language, intentionally designed to thwart the misuse of certain formulae. The use of these formulae were only intended for those who had experiential access to twilight states of consciousness, and were familiar with the unique symbolism of such dimensions. In the Natha lineage where the Alchemical teachings are preserved, these states where obtained through a thorough training in yoga or union, and its main method, samadhi, or mystical union.

 

Some of the common words used to symbolize parada are: rasa (essence), rasendra (because it is the most important of metals), suta (because of its ability to transmute gold), capala (on account of its volatility), rasa raja (ruler of metals)--and many others. Most of these words are synomynous with Shiva, indeed one of the most common synonyms refers to parada as the "semen of Shiva". This is in and of itself, very revealing. Shiva, in the Tantric literature, symbolizes infinite time (Skt.: Mahakala). This explains the esoteric symbolism embedded in Shiva's traditional iconography: a yogin crowned by the eclipsing moon: the sun and the moon conjoined. Karmic prana is withdrawn from the solar and lunar channels to become jnanic (transcendental) lifeforce. There, Shiva and Shakti lie, beyond time, in the central channel (sushumna). In order for creation to come into being Shiva enters into "play" with his opposite, Shakti. Thus the concept of time, and limited experience becomes possible. In the process of making parada consumable, parada is mixed with this opposite; the only substance which can control Shiva's incredible potential, purified sulfur: the `menses' or blood of Parvati (Shakti).

 

Technically speaking, Shakti is Ahamkara (Skt.) or literally `the I-maker', the power behind `I-ness', the kundalini shakti herself. A human only exists based on the fact that Ahamkara deceives herself into believing that she is mated to the limited physical body and its resident personality. When the kundalini shakti is completely `uncoiled', she recognizes that she is Shiva's `power'. Unfortunately, for the uninitiated or inexperienced person, once this shakti is `awake to itself,' it forgets the limited body-mind, and remembers Shiva. She sacrifices her limited individuality to him and obtains instant enlightenment. The problem for the uninitiated is quite simple; those who have not trained in meditation and the total transcendence of limitations, both of time and of body-mind, will at worse lose the ability to identify with the body, i.e. physical death. At best, the huge influx of kundalini will overwhelm the limited energy/immune functions of the body like millions of volts of electricity running through low voltage wire. There is a misguided conception among new age-magical circles that the "fastest" way to enlightenment is to simply awaken the kundalini shakti. What they won't tell you is what to do with the incredible amounts of energy released. Most of the people I have talked to have no idea what to do with it! Remember always, that Shiva is also the Lord of death.

 

Ahamkara, as the energy behind our essential egos, is the basis of all addiction. It is Ahamkara that addicts us even to the food we need to sustain life. The only real way to relieve this problem is to transmute Ahamkara's binding limitation by wedding her to her opposite: Shiva. The limitations of the `I-maker' are then transformed by expansion into a balanced cosmic personality. Addiction to the God/Goddess, to a higher power, is the only permanent cure. It is interesting that even the twelve step groups seem to understand this important idea.

 

Mercury, as the semen of Lord Shiva, is the physical embodiment of the fire of transformation (tejas). It can provide incredible amounts of tejas to an organism, and can make them capable of digesting almost anything. This means digestion of physical substances as well as `digestion' of the sense objects of the five senses, the digestion of experience itself. Parada can also provide unlimited amounts of prana. Thus with prana and tejas, fire and water, parada can provide unlimited ojas, the Quintessence. Because it controls these three, it can also control the three doshas, or bodily humors. Yet, by itself, mercury forms an insoluble salt which lodges in the brain and causes insanity or death. Ingesting mercury by itself is like raising kundalini through an imbalanced path. What mercury needs is something to balance it, to control its energy. That something is the element sulfur.

 

Sulfur is the elemental embodiment of blood, that which the body uses to create everything else (from an Ayurvedic perspective), and the only thing capable of controlling mercury. Sulfur is the womb which creates the child Kajjali, the black sulfide of mercury.

 

Kajjali is the alchemical child from which most of the other alchemical substances are created. The most famous of the mercury-based compounds is the rasayana (rejeuvanative) Makaradwaja. Makaradwaja consists (primarily) of mercury, sulfur, and gold. This compound is capable of providing endurance, energy, increased immune function and longevity to its taker. Makaradwaja seems to work by allowing prana, tejas and ojas to flow into parts of the subtle physiology where it would not normally be able to flow, clearing many of the blockages which may be present. If taken prior to meditation or even sleep, it can even be seen to permeate the nadis (subtle energy-channels). Mercury allows the body to digest the otherwise only partly digestible element of gold. This allows the concentrated "solidified sunlight," gold, to gild the bodies immune system and aura. On a subtle level it actually has the appearance of a volatile mercury, streaming through the bodies channels. It is excellent for diseases such as A.I.D.S. and different forms of cancer. The average treatment routine, repeated on a yearly basis, should last for about a month, depending on the individual, usually in the coldest months of the year.

 

Members of the Bhairavi cult, worshippers of a particularly wrathful form of Lord Shiva, have been known to live hundreds of years through the alchemical use of such mercury-based compounds. Indeed some are said to have obtained immortality (by overcoming their innate addiction to time). Statues of the Bhairavi cult display some of the characteristics of this incredible life extension; beings so mutated from alchemical sadhana as to resemble other dimensional Bhairavis more than humans. This is their actual appearance, yet they may appear as any age to the observer, and do not usually display their true appearance to the uninitiated.

 

In Rasa Shastra, the Art of Tantric alchemy, Mercury is considered as a living substance--a living being. In the process of preparation it goes through all of the same processes as the sadhaka who seeks liberation, and the child or soul who seeks incarnation. First the mercury is `awakened', made `hungry', it is `fed', made to `swoon', and lastly `killed'. `Killing' refers to incineration in the symbolism of the Twilight Language. More than mere symbolism, the preparation of Mercury is the preparation for enlightenment itself, the true Gold of the Wise.

 

Nothing summarizes the goal of Tantric alchemy better than the following quote from the Rasahridaya Tantra (9th cent. A.D.) by the great sage Govinda Bhagavatpada, the Guru of Shankaracharya:

 

"It is only in the virtuous ones, the flame full of consciousness appears between the two eye brows which has the appearance of fire, lightening, or a sun. It is difficult to describe the nature of this excellent flame. It endows the person with eternal bliss and makes him free of all miseries. It is observable. It is peaceful and its attributes can be appreciated by the individual. The individual should concentrate his mind on this flame and the entire universe will appear before them like eternally vibrating conscious-ness...Those individuals who have attained this state of unity which is like amrita are the truly blessed ones." (Rasahridaya Tantra I:21-26)

 

 

© 1994, S.A. Feite

[GrandmasterP]

Completely off topic... not sure why you would copy-paste a description from a fictional work. We were talking about the actual Alchemist's Guild here.

 

The point being that all approaches to 'western' alchemy are, of necessity - fictive.

These are stories told, shared and compared.

Made up, unreal beyond the telling.

If it works for anyone then well and good but on a public forum there is surely the right to comment and contribute?

Just step back for a moment and consider...

It's September 2014, the venue is a dinner party or other social gathering.

Someone says..." I am Frater X and I am an alchemist."

Where does the conversation go from there?

[Michael Sternbach]

 

The point being that all approaches to 'western' alchemy are, of necessity - fictive. These are stories told, shared and compared. Made up, unreal beyond the telling. If it works for anyone then well and good but on a public forum there is surely the right to comment and contribute? Just step back for a moment and consider... It's September 2014, the venue is a dinner party or other social gathering. Someone says..." I am Frater X and I am an alchemist." Where does the conversation go from there?

 

 

There are many things that could be said in favour of "The Royal Art." I may do so if this discussion merits it.

 

For starters:

 

One part of Western, Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Tibetan Alchemy is, and has always been, the manufacture of medical remedies, called Spagyrics in the West. Such remedies are commercially available and have been proven time and again to be very effective in all kinds of health afflictions - I can confirm this based on my personal. fairly comprehensive experience.

 

Now, alchemists endorse that even more potent agents can be made. The processes leading to such are complex and have not been completely revealed for various reasons. This is not very surprising, other occult traditions (along with more mundane crafts) are keeping their most advanced secrets to themselves, as well. However, in light of the efficacy of what is indeed out in the open, to laugh at what remains hidden demonstrates nothing but one's bias.

i.e. decline the beneficial effects of Qigong without having any real knowledge or experience about it.

 

But if you have any substantial evidence against Alchemy, I challenge you to present it, and I (and probably others) will give it due consideration.

[GrandmasterP]

 

There are many things that could be said in favour of "The Royal Art." I may do so if this discussion merits it.

 

For starters:

 

One part of Western, Arabic, Indian, Chinese, Tibetan Alchemy is, and has always been, the manufacture of medical remedies, called Spagyrics in the West. Such remedies are commercially available and have been proven time and again to be very effective in all kinds of health afflictions - I can confirm this based on my personal. fairly comprehensive experience.

 

Now, alchemists endorse that even more potent agents can be made. The processes leading to such are complex and have not been completely revealed for various reasons. This is not very surprising, other occult traditions (along with more mundane crafts) are keeping their most advanced secrets to themselves, as well. However, in light of the efficacy of what is indeed out in the open, to laugh at what remains hidden demonstrates nothing but one's bias.

i.e. decline the beneficial effects of Qigong without having any real knowledge or experience about it.

 

But if you have any substantial evidence against Alchemy, I challenge you to present it, and I (and probably others) will give it due consideration.

 

Well as I said...

" If it works for you...."

good luck.

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The point being that all approaches to 'western' alchemy are, of necessity - fictive. These are stories told, shared and compared. Made up, unreal beyond the telling. If it works for anyone then well and good but on a public forum there is surely the right to comment and contribute? Just step back for a moment and consider... It's September 2014, the venue is a dinner party or other social gathering. Someone says..." I am Frater X and I am an alchemist." Where does the conversation go from there?

 

I don't know GrandmasterP, because I have not and would not do anything like that. Where did it go when you said:

 

. . . I am the current Southcottian medium for the last prophetess Octavia . . .

 

If I may be so bold as to ask? Did you get much in the of:

 

". . . all approaches to Spiritualism are, of necessity - fictive. These are stories told, shared and compared. Made up, unreal beyond the telling."

 

And how did a:

 

. . . born and raised Southcottian Spiritualist . . .

 

take that dismissal?

[Nungali]

The point being that all approaches to 'western' alchemy are, of necessity - fictive. These are stories told, shared and compared. Made up, unreal beyond the telling. If it works for anyone then well and good but on a public forum there is surely the right to comment and contribute? Just step back for a moment and consider... It's September 2014, the venue is a dinner party or other social gathering. Someone says..." I am Frater X and I am an alchemist." Where does the conversation go from there?

 

If social gatherings were like that, I may well venture forth from my hermitage more often.

 

It all depends on what sort of a dinner party it is I suppose ?

 

http://www.learnawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Stonecutters.jpg

[Michael Sternbach]

Well as I said... " If it works for you...." good luck.

 

Thanks. Same to you!

 

[Apech]

I don't think GrmPs has spent enough time at Alchemist Anonymous meetings where 'My name is XXXXX and I am an alchemist' must be a common refrain.

 

So confident now are the believers in the western materialist scientific paradigm that they feel it easy to dismiss any other way of seeing the world and substances it contains. They easily forget that their very own poster boy Isaac Newton was himself an alchemist.

[GrandmasterP]

I don't think GrmPs has spent enough time at Alchemist Anonymous meetings where 'My name is XXXXX and I am an alchemist' must be a common refrain.

 

So confident now are the believers in the western materialist scientific paradigm that they feel it easy to dismiss any other way of seeing the world and substances it contains. They easily forget that their very own poster boy Isaac Newton was himself an alchemist.

And a closet Unitarian.

Don't forget the Unitarianism, it sorta defined Newton's latter years.

Everyone was fine with the alchemy but had he been outed as a Unitarian he'd have been stripped of his Fellowship and ejected from the university rendering him both homeless and potless.

Edited September 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[FraterUFA]

 

Edited July 10, 2015 by FraterUFA