Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Adinatha]

Practitioners must keep very pure samaya, secrecy and be extremely careful about whom they associate. Very few will do this.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

The rules which apply to the other 8 ways of buddhist training don't apply to the highest ninth way which is Dzogchen!

They definitely do. You are mistaking descriptions of the view i.e. your nature, to be describing the conduct.

 

Dzogchen may not require anything at all, but you are not Dzogchen... Dzogchen is your nature. You, as the practitioner, work with your knowledge of Dzogchen and therefore you must keep perfect conduct.

[asunthatneversets]

Which is why Padmasambhava says:

 

Though my view is as vast as the sky, my careful attention to cause and effect [karma] is finer than grains of tsampa.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

If you train Dzogchen and the Natural State,

you don't need to train morality, meditation, recite mantras or whatever additionally.

But you need to do that if you follow one of the other 8 lesser Buddhist ways.

 

Lopon Tenzin Namdak - Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings

pages 70, 71:

Yes, that is if you are resting in the 'natural state'. When you are not resting in that knowledge, which is the majority of the time unless you are a second stage bodhisattva, then you are in the relative state and relative things like morality, meditation and other practices apply to you.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

 

You seem to ignore the statement in the quote on purpose because it contradicts your belief.

The statement is more than clear.

Well, you are misunderstanding it. Those things are only extraneous from the standpoint of the definitive view i.e. the natural state... and therefore are necessary aspects of the path when one is not resting in the view. You are not in that view at all times... if at all depending on your capacity, and so to declare that those things are outright unnecessary is reckless and inaccurate.

 

And since we're quoting Löpon Tenzin Namdak, he agrees:

 

"In the practice of Dzogchen, we do not find it necessary to do visualizations of deities or to do recitations like the Refuge and Bodhichitta. Some would say that these are not necessary to do at all, but this is speaking from the side of the Natural State only.

 

They say in the Natural State, everything is present there already in potential, and so there is nothing lacking and nothing more to do to add or acquire anything. This is fine. But on the side of the practitioner, there is much to do and practices such as Refuge and Bodhichitta are very necessary.

 

In its own terms, Dzogchen has no rules; it is open to everything. But does this mean we can do just what we feel like at the moment? On the side of the Natural State, this is true and there are no restrictions or limitations. All appearances are manifestations of mind (sems kyi snang-ba), like reflections seen in a mirror, and there is no inherent negativity or impurity in them. Everything is perfectly all right just as it is, as the energy (rtsal) of the Nature of Mind in manifestation. It is like white and black clouds passing overhead in the sky; they equally obscure the face of the sun. When they depart, there are no traces left behind.

 

However, that is speaking only on the side of the Natural State, which is like the clear, open sky, unaffected by the presence or absence of these clouds. For the sky, it is all the same. But on the side of the practitioner, it is quite different because we mistakenly believe these clouds are solid, opaque, and quite real and substantial. As practitioners we must first come to an understanding of the insubstantiality and unreality of all these clouds which obscure the sky of our own Nature of Mind (sems-nyid). It is our Tawa (lta-ba), or view, our way of looking at things, which is basic and fundamental, and we must begin here. Then we must practice and attain realization.

 

So on the side of the practitioner, practice and commitment are most certainly required. The Natural State in itself is totally open and clear and spacious like the sky but we, as individuals, are not totally open and unobstructed.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

 

I could understand how you projected whatever you want Padmasambhava to say into his cryptic words.

How you are able to do so with Löpon Tenzin Namdak's clear words is beyond my understanding.

He does NOT agree with your absurd view.

Practice & commitment in Dzogchen is certainly required and even then most people will never attain the Natural State of Mind.

??

 

You are the one stating that practice and commitments are unnecessary.

 

I'm not even sure what you think my view is at this point.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Zoom,

Tenzin Namdak says himself that Karma exists and one has to be wary..

From page 164 of the same book that you are quoting:

 

 

 

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

If the practitioner achieves the Natural State of Mind, then all fruits that other practices might have will manifest spontaneously if the practitioner requires those.

If the practitioner requires the fruits of practices like Refuge and Bodhichitta, then the successful practice of the Natural State will manifest those in him.

 

The premise is certainly, that the practitioner is able to attain the Natural State and most are not.

If the practitioner has the potential to attain the Natural State, he certainly has to train very committed to realize it anyways.

The 'natural state' is not a one time thing that you suddenly 'achieve' and then everything manifests spontaneously for you from there on. It is a gradual familiarization which ends with buddhahood (which means a complete knowledge of the natural state that never regresses).

 

The 'natural state' is naturally perfected and requires nothing... but one is not in that state at all times, even after initially recognizing it. The Dzogchen path involves familiarizing with one's knowledge of the natural state. And that experience fluctuates. On the outset one has no knowledge of that nature, and therefore contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta etc., are all required as preliminaries to aid the practitioner in recognizing that nature (that is; if they fail to recognize it when the teacher points it out).

 

After the practitioner recognizes that nature, they will become distracted and regress back into the relative condition, and so again, contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta are all required as supports for practice.

 

At the times when the practitioner is resting in the direct knowledge of the natural state, no contrived practice, or commitments, or refuge or bodhicitta etc., are required because the natural state is the definitive refuge and is ultimate bodhicitta and is the uncontrived view/practice.

 

But the practitioner will again become distracted and will have to uphold commitments and practice and during that time he or she is in the relative condition.

 

So it is a gradual path in that sense. One's nature is originally pure and naturally perfected, but the practitioner works with their knowledge of that nature, and that knowledge needs to come from recognition, and then requires refinement through familiarization and integration with the natural state.

 

Only Buddhas are in the natural state at all times, which means only Buddhas are free from a need for practice, commitments, refuge and relative bodhicitta.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body compared to the high number of Dzogchen practitioners in the world?

Is the answer that you have to be the member of an old Dzogchen lineage or that you have to be the student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher?

No, because if that was the reason then every member of an old Dzogchen lineage or every student of an accomplished Dzogchen teacher would attain rainbow body.

But this is not the case.

 

The answer is obvious: Only very few Dzogchen practitioners will attain rainbow body

because only very few Dzogchen practitioners are mentally capable to achieve the Natural State of Mind!

 

The very few Dzogchen practitioners who achieve the Natural State of Mind and stay in it for longer periods of time will attain rainbow body!

All the others who don't, won't!

 

 

ZOOM

 

I think it is the same reasons that very few pianists become masters, why so few martial artists become any good at it, why so few soccer players make the pro level, why so few Mo Pai folks can produce scientifically verifiable results... Most don't practice much, many don't have the right focus when they practice, not everyone has had a good teacher, and (though I know y'all disagree with me) natural talent plays into it.

 

Actually speaking of natural talent, many Buddhists (and Daoists) beleive that those who come in with natural talent have done this stuff in previous lives. So perhaps that is why so few make it, because it takes several lifetimes to master, and there aren't all that many people in their 30th lifetime or whatever, who chose that path, and practice, and etc.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Practitioners must keep very pure samaya, secrecy and be extremely careful about whom they associate. Very few will do this.

 

I just wikied samaya; this forum is screwed!

 

Hmm, I'm curious now, how does that whole with whom one associates thing work if you are volunteering to help people out? (for example hanging around some some of the homeless folks who are addicts and lead very uhm, inpure lives?) The reason I ask this is that I could swear things went better in a spiritual sense when I was regularly volunteering and hanging out with such folks. It was quite interesting actually. Also a lot of odd good luck for the lot of us. Then also what about one's students? Is anyone who teaches me doomed?

[BaguaKicksAss]

The rules which apply to the other 8 ways of buddhist training don't apply to the highest ninth way which is Dzogchen!

 

Why is that? What is the difference in the practice?

 

The 'natural state' is not a one time thing that you suddenly 'achieve' and then everything manifests spontaneously for you from there on. It is a gradual familiarization which ends with buddhahood (which means a complete knowledge of the natural state that never regresses).

 

The 'natural state' is naturally perfected and requires nothing... but one is not in that state at all times, even after initially recognizing it. The Dzogchen path involves familiarizing with one's knowledge of the natural state. And that experience fluctuates. On the outset one has no knowledge of that nature, and therefore contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta etc., are all required as preliminaries to aid the practitioner in recognizing that nature (that is; if they fail to recognize it when the teacher points it out).

 

After the practitioner recognizes that nature, they will become distracted and regress back into the relative condition, and so again, contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta are all required as supports for practice.

 

At the times when the practitioner is resting in the direct knowledge of the natural state, no contrived practice, or commitments, or refuge or bodhicitta etc., are required because the natural state is the definitive refuge and is ultimate bodhicitta and is the uncontrived view/practice.

 

But the practitioner will again become distracted and will have to uphold commitments and practice and during that time he or she is in the relative condition.

 

So it is a gradual path in that sense. One's nature is originally pure and naturally perfected, but the practitioner works with their knowledge of that nature, and that knowledge needs to come from recognition, and then requires refinement through familiarization and integration with the natural state.

 

Only Buddhas are in the natural state at all times, which means only Buddhas are free from a need for practice, commitments, refuge and relative bodhicitta.

 

I think, I have been way to hard on myself! I have been expecting myself to be in that state 24X7, ideally. (I managed it for short period of time previously and have been wondering why I am not keeping it up). So thank you for that. I don't feel so much like a slacker now.

 

Er, sorry for the derail Zoom!

[Jetsun]

The natural state is universal , it isn't a skill to be learned or mastered, those who work really hard at attaining it or are highly intelligent may arrive there later than the stupid guy who just let's go and relaxes into it. In my view those who attain the rainbow body are those who are at the end of their karmic journey, Dzogchen may speed the journey up but obviously it isn't an instant journey ender for most, there are still issues and things which need to be resolved in the realm of separation before we are prepared to put it down and let it go.

[Simple_Jack]

The 'natural state' is not a one time thing that you suddenly 'achieve' and then everything manifests spontaneously for you from there on. It is a gradual familiarization which ends with buddhahood (which means a complete knowledge of the natural state that never regresses).

 

The 'natural state' is naturally perfected and requires nothing... but one is not in that state at all times, even after initially recognizing it. The Dzogchen path involves familiarizing with one's knowledge of the natural state. And that experience fluctuates. On the outset one has no knowledge of that nature, and therefore contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta etc., are all required as preliminaries to aid the practitioner in recognizing that nature (that is; if they fail to recognize it when the teacher points it out).

 

After the practitioner recognizes that nature, they will become distracted and regress back into the relative condition, and so again, contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta are all required as supports for practice.

 

At the times when the practitioner is resting in the direct knowledge of the natural state, no contrived practice, or commitments, or refuge or bodhicitta etc., are required because the natural state is the definitive refuge and is ultimate bodhicitta and is the uncontrived view/practice.

 

But the practitioner will again become distracted and will have to uphold commitments and practice and during that time he or she is in the relative condition.

 

So it is a gradual path in that sense. One's nature is originally pure and naturally perfected, but the practitioner works with their knowledge of that nature, and that knowledge needs to come from recognition, and then requires refinement through familiarization and integration with the natural state.

 

Only Buddhas are in the natural state at all times, which means only Buddhas are free from a need for practice, commitments, refuge and relative bodhicitta.

 

It should be emphasized that gathering the two accumulations is needed in order to achieve the body of light i.e. buddhahood:

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_accumulations

[Jeff]

It should be emphasized that gathering the two accumulations is needed in order to achieve the body of light i.e. buddhahood:

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_accumulations

 

Interesting point. How do you think merit/interdependence relate?

[Simple_Jack]

There are quoted explanations by Rinpoches if you click on the links within the page.

[Jeff]

There are quoted explanations by Rinpoches if you click on the links within the page.

 

Yes, but I was specifically interested in...

 

Mingyur Rinpoche says:

Merit is connected with the power of interdependence. Each phenomenon has its own characteristics and power. Interdependence has outer and inner power. The inner power is dependent on the mind. It can be either negative or positive. The positive is what we call merit. The negative, which is a cause of suffering, is non-virtue. Merit is the same as virtue.

 

Do you (or anyone) have any thoughts on this interdependence point and how it relates to the light body...?

[GrandmasterP]

Well sniping at each other on TTB Buddha boards isn't especially meritorious.

Striving to be the one who is 'always right' is just wrong.

I'll bet a week's wages that not one of the Dzogchen boosters on here would be accepted as a Dzogchen spokesperson by a real lineaged Dzogchen master.

One gets the distict impression that our chums are just trading snippets of stuff that they have read.

'Talking the talk but not walking the walk.'

In my experience real Buddhists are amongstbthe most non contentious folks you could wish to meet.

The Audehabums on here, in the main; are a fractious crew.