Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[Simple_Jack]

Do you (or anyone) have any thoughts on this interdependence point and how it relates to the light body...?

 

You gather the two accumulations in order to make progress towards buddhahood.

 

Well sniping at each other on TTB Buddha boards isn't especially meritorious. Striving to be the one who is 'always right' is just wrong. I'll bet a week's wages that not one of the Dzogchen boosters on here would be accepted as a Dzogchen spokesperson by a real lineaged Dzogchen master. One gets the distict impression that our chums are just trading snippets of stuff that they have read. 'Talking the talk but not walking the walk.' In my experience real Buddhists are amongstbthe most non contentious folks you could wish to meet. The Audehabums on here, in the main; are a fractious crew.

 

As long as you don't rule yourself out of the equation, remember you're contributing just as much negativity with every thought that you put to the keyboard, thus creating non-virtuous karma for yourself.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hmmm you never know... personally I come on here when I need some grounding lol. Could be that way for others; release the pent up acting like a regular human being sort of thing...

 

The reason I came up with this idea is because so many folks are different online than they are in person.

[ralis]

Well sniping at each other on TTB Buddha boards isn't especially meritorious. Striving to be the one who is 'always right' is just wrong. I'll bet a week's wages that not one of the Dzogchen boosters on here would be accepted as a Dzogchen spokesperson by a real lineaged Dzogchen master. One gets the distict impression that our chums are just trading snippets of stuff that they have read. 'Talking the talk but not walking the walk.' In my experience real Buddhists are amongstbthe most non contentious folks you could wish to meet. The Audehabums on here, in the main; are a fractious crew.

 

In my town there are a few real Buddhists. Most are engaged in behavior such as what is on this site. There are at least six Tibetan Buddhist centers which includes a Buddhist stupa, one Zen center, and several Theravadin centers. The board members which represent the Buddhist stupa center told Namkhai Norbu in 1989 that he can never return due to the fact that he stated that Samantabhadra is the primordial Buddha.

[deci belle]

very few Dzogchen practitioners are mentally capable to achieve the Natural State of Mind!

 

The problem is not limited to this tradition. It is not an issue of mental capacity.

 

It is not even an issue of capability as all people are just this Mind already.

 

An illiterate woodcutter was the 6th Chan patriarch.

 

As for rainbows, there is no such thing, I'm afraid. Perhaps that is a euphemism for one's functional utilization of unified awareness without discriminating thought?

 

The stabilization of achieving the natural state of Mind results in no additional capacity as mind itself is the capacity of universal aware nature.

 

Reality has no different appearance to the enlightened as it does to the deluded. The natural state of mind is simply not entertaining thought relative to personal views.

 

Very few people see Reality because they will not give up their thieving intellectualism— it has nothing to do with mental capabilities.

[GrandmasterP]

Hmmm you never know... personally I come on here when I need some grounding lol. Could be that way for others; release the pent up acting like a regular human being sort of thing...

 

The reason I came up with this idea is because so many folks are different online than they are in person.

Apparently so.

I can understand those dating forums people maybe overegging the pudding.

Nobody advertising themself as a 'snipey self-obsessed loner' is likely to get many responses.

But on fora such as TTB!

Where's the point of pretending to be something or someone one isn't on TTB?

There's illusion and then there's delusion.

If these guys were genuine they'd post their Sangha details.

They never do because they know if they did that ( if they were in a Sangha) their teacher would tell them to grow up and their Sangha buddies would likely cold shoulder them for bringing that Sangha into disrepute online.

No way would any teacher tolerate a student spouting the utter bilge that some Buddhabums post on here on an almost daily basis.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Simple_Jack]

As for rainbows, there is no such thing, I'm afraid. Perhaps that is a euphemism for one's functional utilization of unified awareness without discriminating thought?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33574-substance-dualism-in-buddhadharma/?p=519642

 

When one has eliminated the traces of affliction and action in one's own five elements, one's body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light".

 

The theory of the body of light is predicted on the fundamental state of reality being something called wisdom, which has five lights, which are reified as physical matter. Upon completion of the path, one sees this matter in its real nature once again and the elements of the body "revert" to their original nature as wisdom (i.e. through the process of thogal one eradicates all the afflictive obscurations which prevent one from seeing things just as they are (yathabhutaṃ)); Body of light is a realization....

 

Very few people see Reality because they will not give up their thieving intellectualism— it has nothing to do with mental capabilities.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=247092#p247092

 

There are 21 types of capacties of practitioners. Only the best of the best attain great transference body, i.e., rainbow body in this life. Virtually all others attain it in the bardo, or failing that, in a pure nirmanakāya buddhafield.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=247365#p247365

 

...Of the 21 capacities of Dzogchen practitioners listed the Rig pa rang shar tantra it is only the last three or four who need to take rebirth in a pure nirmanakāya realm in order to attain buddhahood.

 

~ Loppon Namdrol

[Simple_Jack]

Apparently so.

I can understand those dating forums people maybe overegging the pudding.

Nobody advertising themself as a 'snipey self-obsessed loner' is likely to get many responses.

But on fora such as TTB!

Where's the point of pretending to be something or someone one isn't on TTB?

There's illusion and then there's delusion.

If these guys were genuine they'd post their Sangha details.

They never do because they know if they did that ( if they were in a Sangha) their teacher would tell them to grow up and their Sangha buddies would likely cold shoulder them for bringing that Sangha into disrepute online.

No way would any teacher tolerate a student spouting the utter bilge that some Buddhabums post on here on an almost daily basis.

 

Remember this when you post on internet forums:

 

As long as you don't rule yourself out of the equation, remember you're contributing just as much negativity with every thought that you put to the keyboard, thus creating non-virtuous karma for yourself.

[doc benway]

If the practitioner achieves the Natural State of Mind, then all fruits that other practices might have will manifest spontaneously if the practitioner requires those.

If the practitioner requires the fruits of practices like Refuge and Bodhichitta, then the successful practice of the Natural State will manifest those in him.

 

The premise is certainly, that the practitioner is able to attain the Natural State and most are not.

If the practitioner has the potential to attain the Natural State, he certainly has to train very committed to realize it anyways.

 

The Natural State is not an achievement.

One does not attain it.

It's always already what you are, there's just a lot of other stuff in the way.

 

It is not that difficult to experience.

It is very difficult to integrate into every waking, sleeping, and dreaming moment.

This is why the ultimate result is rare.

 

If one is able to rest in the Natural State in each and every moment then you are correct that absolutely nothing else is necessary.

Human beings, however, are generally unnecessary (edit) unable to do this, therefore all other "requirements" are important.

If you look more seriously into Dzogchen you will see that the first major step on the path is the ngondro.

These are a series of sutric and tantric practices to which dzogchenpo's commit their lives.

You do not abandon the basics even when you are far along the path - it is the foundation, the lifeblood of maintaining the level of devotion and commitment necessary to continue.

 

The following is not meant to be disrespectful but supportive. Your interpretation of what you've read about Dzogchen is a very common misunderstanding and is the reason why it has been heavily criticized by other Buddhist schools and practitioners. Many people look at it as an easy shortcut. It is very much a shortcut but is anything but easy. One has to be open, willing, and devoted to doing anything necessary - including keeping all promises and living one's relative life (all those moments while not resting in the Nature) in a way that is consistent with the basics - the four noble truths and so on. If the proper view and action is not there, there will be no rainbows.

 

Asunthatneversets is very knowledgeable about Dzogchen and, although I've never asked specifically, I suspect he is actively or has spent a fair amount of time practicing and studying. I'd encourage you to be open to what he says, you could learn quite a bit from him.... assuming it is your intention to learn.

Edited July 18, 2014 by steve

[asunthatneversets]

Well sniping at each other on TTB Buddha boards isn't especially meritorious.Striving to be the one who is 'always right' is just wrong.I'll bet a week's wages that not one of the Dzogchen boosters on here would be accepted as a Dzogchen spokesperson by a real lineaged Dzogchen master.One gets the distict impression that our chums are just trading snippets of stuff that they have read.'Talking the talk but not walking the walk.'In my experience real Buddhists are amongstbthe most non contentious folks you could wish to meet.The Audehabums on here, in the main; are a fractious crew.

Not really...

 

"If, with the intention of identifying and teaching higher and lower views, other precepts are deprecated, this is not transgression, but greatly increases merit."

- Commentary on The 14 Root Downfalls | rtsa ltung bcu bzhi

[ralis]

Not really...

 

"If, with the intention of identifying and teaching higher and lower views, other precepts are deprecated, this is not transgression, but greatly increases merit."

- Commentary on The 14 Root Downfalls | rtsa ltung bcu bzhi

 

Instead of engaging in a reasonable discourse with Grandmaster P, you defer to a textual reference which is out of context. Buddhists have some need to be absolutely right while making others absolutely wrong with no room for reasonable discourse. The above quote is vague and open to myriad interpretations.

 

You seem to be advocating any behavior without question when expressed from a Buddhist.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ralis

[asunthatneversets]

Instead of engaging in a reasonable discourse with Grandmaster P, you defer to a textual reference which is out of context. Buddhists have some need to be absolutely right while making others absolutely wrong with no room for reasonable discourse. The above quote is vague and open to myriad interpretations.

With all due respect, Grandmaster P really just comes off as a guy with a chip on his shoulder who wants to sling mud at everything. So forgive me if I don't think to pursue a 'reasonable discourse', if such a thing is even possible.

 

And the quote pertains to his first few sentences just fine. Not that it matters, he clearly just doesn't care for the teachings he constantly harps on. Which is fine, but I'd rather just let him do his negative nancy thing and not worry about it.

Edited July 18, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[GrandmasterP]

That isn't the intention and if that's conveyed then the fault is mine so apologies.

I socialise with Buddhists and have said several times on here that we have a western Pure Land Sangha in the next village ( Caroline Brazier's group) plus a New Kadampa spiffy veggie cafe and centre in Leicester city centre plus one of their temples just upthe road from us.

Those are not fractious people and they do not bash folks over thehead with texts.

What I do maintain is that here on TTB we seem to have a group of Buddhabums who are fractious, who do NOT appear to belong to any Sangha and certainl don't seem to relate to anything approcahing teaching beyond whatever they have read.

I simply cannot imagine any of the Buddhists I have met coming onto an online forum and displaying the argumentative and snippy attitudes that we see on here on the Buddha boards.

They MUST be right, there's seldom discussion simply yet another cut and pasted text.

One guy even queried why "non Buddhists" were even allowed onto the 'Buddhist Forum' implying that we shouldn't have a say.

How Buddhist is that?

I do wonder is fome of these guys haven't been laughed off the specialist forums for the particular 'brand' they bang on about on here.

I really cannot see any lineaged Dzogchen teacher now any other Buddhist teacher from any path endorsing the sheer unpleasantness sometimes displayed on TTB by those claiming allegiance to one idea or another.

To claim that " this is right" implies "that is wrong".

Likewise claiming " this is the BEST form of Buddhism" is to disrespect other Buddhist paths.

I had a PM from one 'Buddhist' on here informing me that " Pure Land is BS".

That was not the action of a Buddhist nor are any of the snippier 'Buddhist' posts on TTB.

The more facets a diamond has, the better it sparkles.

There is no 'one right way' there's one mountain with lots of paths up that mountain.

Would that our chums understood that.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Simple_Jack]

One guy even queried why "non Buddhists" were even allowed onto the 'Buddhist Forum' implying that we shouldn't have a say.

How Buddhist is that?

 

You're misconstruing what TI said:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35535-who-is-a-zen-teacher/?p=562859

[GrandmasterP]

Tibetan_Ice, on 15 Jul 2014 - 00:04, said:

Why do non Buddhists post their non Buddhist stuff in the Buddhist section?

 

 

This thread's called " Buddhist Discussion".

TTB is an inclusive forum hence folks who are able to differentiate between discussion and preaching perhaps feel more at home than those more comfortable within the security of unbending dogmatics.

The rather more exclusive " Buddhists Only" club is here.....

http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php

 

Hope that helps some here to find like minded chums.

 

 

Edited by GrandmasterP, 15 July 2014 - 10:05 AM.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Tibetan_Ice]

The 'natural state' is not a one time thing that you suddenly 'achieve' and then everything manifests spontaneously for you from there on. It is a gradual familiarization which ends with buddhahood (which means a complete knowledge of the natural state that never regresses).

 

The 'natural state' is naturally perfected and requires nothing... but one is not in that state at all times, even after initially recognizing it. The Dzogchen path involves familiarizing with one's knowledge of the natural state. And that experience fluctuates. On the outset one has no knowledge of that nature, and therefore contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta etc., are all required as preliminaries to aid the practitioner in recognizing that nature (that is; if they fail to recognize it when the teacher points it out).

 

After the practitioner recognizes that nature, they will become distracted and regress back into the relative condition, and so again, contrived practice, commitments, refuge, relative bodhicitta are all required as supports for practice.

 

At the times when the practitioner is resting in the direct knowledge of the natural state, no contrived practice, or commitments, or refuge or bodhicitta etc., are required because the natural state is the definitive refuge and is ultimate bodhicitta and is the uncontrived view/practice.

 

But the practitioner will again become distracted and will have to uphold commitments and practice and during that time he or she is in the relative condition.

 

So it is a gradual path in that sense. One's nature is originally pure and naturally perfected, but the practitioner works with their knowledge of that nature, and that knowledge needs to come from recognition, and then requires refinement through familiarization and integration with the natural state.

 

Only Buddhas are in the natural state at all times, which means only Buddhas are free from a need for practice, commitments, refuge and relative bodhicitta.

Not bad except that you didn't differentiate between the son and the mother. It is easy to see the son natural state, not so easy to stay in it. One has to practice and stay in that state, attain stability in it until the point where the division between the son and the mother dissolves. Son rigpa, mother rigpa.

 

You can transmit or teach someone how to attain the son rigpa, but technically that is not the natural state, not the big, mind blowing, earth shattering natural state. You talk like there is no division,

 

If there was no division, why would you need to "perfect" anything?

Edited July 18, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[asunthatneversets]

Not bad except that you didn't differentiate between the son and the mother. It is easy to see the son natural state, not so easy to stay in it. One has to practice and stay in that state, attain stability in it until the point where the division between the son and the mother dissolves. Son rigpa, mother rigpa.

 

You can transmit or teach someone how to attain the son rigpa, but technically that is not the natural state, not the big, mind blowing, earth shattering natural state. You talk like there is no division,

 

If there was no division, why would you need to "perfect" anything?

I'm talking about the definitive 'natural state' [gnas lugs].

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[BaguaKicksAss]

Typical for Westerners!

They like to intellectualize, they like to believe that they are experts and know what they are talking about because they memorize complete books and can quote every part from them immedeately...

...but they don't grasp the essence behind the teachings!

 

As no Westerner Dzogchen practitioner

(no matter if he is in an official lineage and has an officiel accomplished master and got "empowernment" or direct instruction from him)

ever attained rainbow body, no Westerner Dzogchen practitioner ever attained the Natural State of Mind!

And most likely, no one of these guys ever will!

 

That's the truth and the bottom line here!

 

Not like folks go talking about such things when they do happen. Much less spectacular than rainbow body has happened and it is always kept very hush hush; I'm guessing this would be the case with the rainbow body thing too if it has happened. Or perhaps Buddhists are different and everyone brags about their accomplishments and the accomplishments of their friends and teachers.

 

Btw, how would anyone know in this day and age? People vanish all the time, out of their apartments and such.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[GrandmasterP]

Here's one we made (up) earlier........

https://m.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773/

 

'Ripleys Believe it or Not' freak show in Blackpool had one of those Tibetan shrunken bodies on display years ago.

Concensus being that it was a mummified child.

There were complaints made and the unsavoury exhibit was removed to Ripleys Chicago HQ museum.

The story made it into the national press here at the time.

They were quite a collectors item back in Victorian times.

The bizarre is ever novel to a certain class of folks.

Thankfully most freak shows have gone the way of bear baiting as a public amusement.

Not everywhere apparently.

Edited July 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Jetsun]

Typical for Westerners!

They like to intellectualize, they like to believe that they are experts and know what they are talking about because they memorize complete books and can quote every part from them immedeately...

...but they don't grasp the essence behind the teachings!

 

As no Westerner Dzogchen practitioner

(no matter if he is in an official lineage and has an officiel accomplished master and got "empowernment" or direct instruction from him)

ever attained rainbow body, no Westerner Dzogchen practitioner ever attained the Natural State of Mind!

And most likely, no one of these guys ever will!

 

That's the truth and the bottom line here!

 

Well most of the Western students who have learned Dzogchen for a long time haven't died yet, so you will have to be patient before drawing too many conclusions.

 

"Western Buddhism" is still pretty much an experiment though, in Tibet their whole society was pretty much geared up for supporting practitioners which isn't true today, while using Skype transmissions and such is new and it is hard to gauge how much of a success it all is, a cursory glance at Buddhist internet forums it does all look like a load of intellectualism and people subverting the teachings to promote their own egotism.

 

But as people have repeatedly pointed out the natural state of mind isn't an achievement, it is already present.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Here's one we made (up) earlier........

https://m.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773/

 

'Ripleys Believe it or Not' freak show in Blackpool had one of those Tibetan shrunken bodies on display years ago.

Concensus being that it was a mummified child.

There were complaints made and the unsavoury exhibit was removed to Ripleys Chicago HQ museum.

The story made it into the national press here at the time.

They were quite a collectors item back in Victorian times.

The bizarre is ever novel to a certain class of folks.

Thankfully most freak shows have gone the way of bear baiting as a public amusement.

Not everywhere apparently.

 

Any chance you could post a real usable link? I don't see anywhere to click out of that odd mobile mode...

 

WHO IN THE FUCKING HELL WOULD TALK ABOUT THEIR TEACHER ATTAINING.... SOMETHING.... ON FACEBOOK?!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well most of the Western students who have learned Dzogchen for a long time haven't died yet, so you will have to be patient before drawing too many conclusions.

 

"Western Buddhism" is still pretty much an experiment though, in Tibet their whole society was pretty much geared up for supporting practitioners which isn't true today, while using Skype transmissions and such is new and it is hard to gauge how much of a success it all is, a cursory glance at Buddhist internet forums it does all look like a load of intellectualism and people subverting the teachings to promote their own egotism.

 

But as people have repeatedly pointed out the natural state of mind isn't an achievement, it is already present.

 

Skype transmissions....

 

and people wonder why the rainbow body thing just isn't happening.

 

Wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone too much now....

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM