Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Simple_Jack]

That is a belief.

 

Can you verify your capacity? Can you verify my capacity? Can you verify the capacity of the Buddha?

 

Yeah, I can verify my capacity. See this post:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=567676

 

I don't care about your capacity. I'm unable to comprehend the Buddha's capacity. The point is not everyone shares the same conception of liberation and not everyone shares the same aspirations. See this post here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=567737

 

For whom?

 

For everyone participating in 'spiritual discussion' on TTB's. It's also a cop-out.

[Brian]

[asunthatneversets]

Hahaha, I see! In your brainwashed state your insight is so blocked

that you even are unable to recognize sarcasm!

 

Btw, this became already obvious when you answered with child-like naivety to my question if you feel mentally liberated...

The conjunction in which my question was posed would have enabled every mentally normal person with a healthy level of insight to recognize that it was dripping of sarcasm!

 

And you dude believe that you are approaching Buddhahood! Yeah, right!

 

Given the fact that words on a screen are unable to convey social cues in the same way a personal interaction would, your statement that 'mentally normal people' would be able to identify sarcasm in what you wrote is hardly an accurate assertion.

 

Most people online, at least in the forums I am used to frequenting, aren't as disingenuous as you are in that respect. In fact, come to think of it I haven't really come across a personality like yours (on dharma forums), ever, so congratulations you are a somewhat of a pioneer in that department.

Edited August 1, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[doc benway]

Who said anything about suffering? A siddha doesn't even have to remain in the body, unlike an ordinary being.

 

You were referring to my post regarding rails.

He clearly suffers relative to his experience or image of Tibetan Buddhism.

[Jeff]

Simple Jack,

 

When a practitioner can verify ones own capacity, what follows is an inherent desire, willingness and ability to also verify the capacity of others around them.

 

 

Hi RV,

 

Why would there be a desire to verify the capacity of others? Why would anyone need to compare?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeff]

 

Why can't a practitioner allegedly learn Dzogchen from a good book but needs "transmission" from a guru?

 

 

Again, I am not a Tibetian Dzogchen practioner, but the answer or need for a guru is very simple. Beings are focused on and exist within the framework of their local body mind, sort of in their own bubble within Buddhamind. Reading a book and intellectually "thinking" at you have percieved beyond the bubble is often just an illusion of local mind. A realized being shares presence in your bubble (mandala) and in that sharing (transmission) sort of temporally dissolves the bubble of local percieved self.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Why don't you invite your guru to this forum so he can answer my question:

 

Why can't a practitioner allegedly learn Dzogchen from a good book but needs "transmission" from a guru?

My teachers (without a doubt) have far better things to do than coming onto this forum, much less trying to convince you out of your fabrications.

 

The problem is that you obviously do not know very much about Dzogchen, and you continually demonstrate this in your statements and assertions. You are clearly uneducated regarding the system and therefore have no idea what you're talking about. It seems you simply fabricate whatever you feel fits to your liking when it comes to these teachings.

 

The irony is that you act as if you're really interested in the teaching, even going as far as to state that you are interested in rainbow body, yet you mock what those who have attained that liberation like they are fools, declaring that the principles they live(d) by are illogical, ignorant, deluded and weak-minded. That doesn't sound like someone who is really interested in the subjects you claim intrigue you. Most people, when they take an interest in something and/or aspire to a certain standard of achievement themselves, will look to those who have accomplished said achievements for advice or pointers, and this is true for anything. Yet apparently you already know better than they do, and even go as far as to laugh at their instructions and insights, which comes off as quite irrational.

Edited August 1, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[asunthatneversets]

And I will expect an answer which seems like a logical reason to a critical intelligent person with a measured IQ over 140 like myself,

and not only to your club members!

I do like the loaded rhetoric of power in this last sentence though: "I will expect", a demanding tone coming from a place of assumed superiority, identical to the very characteristics you project onto the paternalistic figures you actively reject. Interesting subtle irony in that subconscious projection of the shadow, I would say it speaks to your personal issues with teachers, power and/or authority in general. The attempt to substantiate your narratives as rational and valid by citing your IQ score and then presenting that purported information as substantiative proof of being a "critical intelligent person" is also priceless.

Edited August 1, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Simple_Jack]

 

Simple Jack,

When a practitioner can verify ones own capacity, what follows is an inherent desire, willingness and ability to also verify the capacity of others around them.

 

The point is that a system of teachings (e.g. Dzogchen) provides the means for an individual to assess their development by indicating certain signposts along the path. The oral instructions, sutras, tantras, and their commentaries set out to guide one towards buddhahood. See this post here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/page-25#entry567737

 

I hear you. But do not agree.

 

Right, because if I were to throw that back at you in regards to Stillness-Movement, you wouldn't disagree....

[GrandmasterP]

Well if it works for you buddy then good luck with it.

[Jeff]

A deepening desire to not deceive nor to be deceived.

In my opinion, the challenge becomes that one cannot see beyond one's own clarity. All judging of others is based on relative comparing.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Tibetan_Ice]

As for your quotes (Tibetan_Ice), they are fully in line with the system and do not say anything which contradicts what I'm saying.

I agree. If you want to practice Dzogchen, classic Dzogchen, then you must follow the culture and the tradition. But just because you don't have a guru doesn't mean you can't find the natural state.

 

The big problem is trying to find a guru to live with. There are billions of people in the world, and not everyone can find an authentic Dzogchen guru.

 

I have no idea what CN Norbu is doing by offering transmission over the internet, to thousands of people. He is definitely trying to break new ground here. But I'm all for breaking new ground, or perhaps it is old stuff?

 

One night I was lying in bed and I was just about to doze off when I saw CN Norbu at the foot of my bed. It was the night after I had watched his movie. I recognized him right away, except that he looked much younger than he does now. He stayed for a while, smiling at me. Then he left. After he was gone the inside of my head became this luminescent conscious vapor filled mostly with golden and yellow light. My awareness had become supercharged. It was like my consciousness had become a liquid sphere that had expanded from he center of my head. After that, it was quite interesting, but the net result is that I couldn't sleep for 3 hours after that.

 

I suspect that he had given me some kind of transmission, but I know not what kind. It was at that point that i decided that C N Norbu has some abilities and that perhaps he is actually visiting his initiates at night, even non initiates like me. I am fortunate to have my third eye open so he was easy to notice. So, you see, dead guys can appear (and have appeared) to me as well, so I don't believe that you need a living guru. He can be dead too. He could have died years ago, like Ramana...

 

And, yes, you can get a transmission from a book. You can get a transmission from just tuning into someone, especially if they are realized. It has more to do with the capacity of both the perceived and the perceiver.

 

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

You were referring to my post regarding rails.

He clearly suffers relative to his experience or image of Tibetan Buddhism.

 

I might have the wrong impression, but I always thought ralis was relaxed and just posting comments based on reasoning. It appears that most of his comments are questions, and they're good ones in my opinion. In other words, I don't detect a whole lot of suffering from ralis.

[Simple_Jack]

Throw it back at me?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=568213

 

That is a belief.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=568218

 

Pulling the belief card is a slippery, slippery slope.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=568231

 

For whom?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35599-why-do-only-very-few-dzogchen-practitioners-attain-rainbow-body/?p=568243

 

For everyone participating in 'spiritual discussion' on TTB's. It's also a cop-out.

...

 

I don't know if you personally ascribe to it, but from reading threads in the other sub-forums, I'm familiar with Michael Lomax's views (Higher Level Self, Being of Light, etc.)

 

Admittedly, Taoist teachings and explanations consistently resonated with me, more so than Buddhist or Dzogchen teachings and explanations.

 

It could be a matter of Daoism resonating more strongly with your personal interests at this point in time, or you have stronger karmic connections with Daoist teachings, which is not a slight against Daoism itself, seeing as how Buddhism heavily influenced the developmental history of Chinese culture after its introduction into Chinese society.

[doc benway]

I might have the wrong impression, but I always thought ralis was relaxed and just posting comments based on reasoning. It appears that most of his comments are questions, and they're good ones in my opinion. In other words, I don't detect a whole lot of suffering from ralis.

He's smart as hell and asks lots of good questions and I also feel a fair amount of anger and bitterness.

Certainly possible I'm just projecting....

[Simple_Jack]

Without a basis there can be no path, without a path there can be no result. So the intimate instructions from a qualified teacher are an integral and indispensable aspect of Dzogchen and Vajrayāna in general.

I surely agree to that in general.

But there is always the exception to the rule and in history there might have been geniusses who figured out everything purely through the power of their own mind.

In all honesty, I highly doubt those of us responding in this thread would've ever come close to completing the 3rd [togal] vision, relying solely on the merits of our respective capacities. I'm sure as hell I would've never recognized my own limitations if I hadn't come across the teachings and received instruction. It's harsh, but if you found Jax's talk in the linked video some pages back exceptionally profound, then you are not one of those rare people in history. Anyone could potentially have an experience, or a stable recognition, of the mere clarity of mind; I've even talked to people who arrived at that through psychedelics. I've said this on TTB's in the past, but it really is not as rare as people on this forum would think.

 

Thinking about it, it's common to come across various persons describing their experiences along the line of Jax's video, in the "spiritual market" or on spiritually oriented discussion forums. Unfortunately, many people end up grasping to the mere clarity of mind, halting any further progression, thereby being bound by their own limitations...

[Simple_Jack]

Well if it works for you buddy then good luck with it.

 

Good luck entering into Amitabha's Pureland at the time of death. If you train diligently enough you could manifest sharira like this posters deceased grandma:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27071-difference-between-being-in-pure-land-and-clear-light/?p=413433

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27071-difference-between-being-in-pure-land-and-clear-light/?p=412598

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/how-luminosity-clarity-and-clear-light.html (differentiation between "clarity" and "luminosity" in buddhadharma).