Why do only very few Dzogchen practitioners attain rainbow body?

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

I doubt that you western outdoor students are in a better position than we lonely wolfs are.

In fact, I guess your position is worse.

The real students in Tibet who belong to a monastery, they are in a very good position to make progress in their training.

 

The point I'm making is that to practice Vajrayāna or Dzogpachenpo you need a living teacher from whom you receive instruction... so actively rejecting teachers (due to projecting one's own issues with parental or authority figures onto them) is going to be a problematic attitude to uphold.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Well, how exactly do most of you western outdoor students get "personal instruction" from your gurus?

By being able to ask one question during a huge seminar once a year with a group of 100 people or so...?

 

The point is to work with your circumstances and do the best you can. Some teachers nowadays offer teaching via webcast and correspondence via email for those who are interested yet cannot be near their teacher. While that is not the most ideal situation, it is far better than no connection (with a teacher) at all and is perfectly suitable for someone who wishes to practice the teachings in an appropriate way. Attending retreats with teachers is of course even better. The most ideal situation is to have a teacher one can regularly interact with in person.

 

At any rate, I am not quite sure what a western 'outdoor' student is.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

So the master gives you guys "direct transmission" by analysing via skype if you just are just in the Natural State???

I'm not sure how other teachers do it, but Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has tailored his method of direct introduction so that it can be effective through his webcasts. He of course recommends that one should try to receive introduction in person if possible, but via webcast works just fine.

 

A valid recognition of your nature isn't the type of thing the teacher would really have to analyze or confirm for you, as that species of insight is quite unmistakeable. Most aspirants will not recognize their nature (in the sense of 'the natural state') during direct introduction but will instead identify a provisional form of rigpa which is a suitable basis for practice.

 

All you western guys who are not eastern monks living of the monasteries in Tibet.

A monastic lifestyle may not even be appropriate depending on the type of teaching one is involved with.

 

As a side note: in the wake of the cultural revolution the majority of active monasteries in that region are now located in the countries which border Tibet; such as Nepal, Bhutan, India etc.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

So in your opinion there is no need for a teacher to analyse if you are training right / progress on your path and a student can do this on his own.

And you think that it is unlikely that a student will come falsely to the conclusion that he achieved the Natural State or Rigpa.

 

 

Ok. So the "direct introduction" consists simply out of in depth explanations / teachings and not some kind of super-natural energy transmission to induct a higher state on consciousness or so in the student.

 

My first retreat with Norbu was direct and to the point. Had nothing to do with verbal discourse, but the opening was energetic, most likely as a result of a relaxed state that I had never experienced until that point. Very difficult to explain. Norbu talked extensively in regards to energy. Before I met him, I saw a photo of him and the same energetic opening happened.

Edited July 31, 2014 by ralis

[asunthatneversets]

Could you explain a little bit more about the procedure of those webcasts?

So the students listen to the teacher's speech via skype.

After that, can they ask questions to the teacher to make sure that they understood him right?

How many people are listening live to those webcasts?

Is it possible for all students who participate live in those webcasts to ask questions later?

 

Norbu Rinpoche does the webcasts which are strictly concerning direct introduction three or four times a year. There is no speech or explanation during those webcasts, they are done via mantra and another type of method.

 

His webcasts are not broadcasted via skype but through another free service which can handle larger broadcasts. You would certainly be able to email Norbu Rinpoche if you were not present at the retreat (you would be able to ask questions at the retreat). In the bay area where I'm from, Norbu Rinpoche has a community center in Berkeley and explanation etc. is provided by senior students at the center prior to introduction webcasts. I'd imagine it is the same at all of the Dzogchen Community centers [lings and gars].

 

The number of people listening to those webcasts varies, but usually between 1,000 and 3,000.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

So in your opinion there is no need for a teacher to analyse if you are training right / progress on your path and a student can do this on his own.

And you think that it is unlikely that a student will come falsely to the conclusion that he achieved the Natural State or Rigpa.

 

 

Ok. So the "direct introduction" consists simply out of in depth explanations / teachings and not some kind of super-natural energy transmission to induce a higher state of consciousness or so in the student.

 

There is definitely a need for the teacher to analyze if the student is training right and progressing on their path, that is the point of the teacher-student relationship. The student cannot do that on their own.

 

I'm sure many students come to false conclusions that they have recognized the natural state... however the actual 'natural state' is an animal that does not need confirmation is the only point I was making.

 

Just like you wouldn't need someone to confirm that you had water thrown in your face... recognition of the nature of mind is a species of insight that is fully experiential and is endowed with an unshakeable certainty. Which is why it is referred to as a 'beacon of certainty' or a 'torch of certainty'. If one has even a shadow of doubt as to whether they have recognized the nature of mind, then they have not recognized the nature of mind. Valid knowledge of one's nature ensues from a doubtless epiphany tantamount to the feeling of waking up from a dream. That being said, there are surely many students who have not had that insight yet deceive themselves into believing they have indeed recognized their nature, for whatever reason.

 

Some methods of direct introduction (i.e. pointing out instruction) involve explanation... an explanation would be an oral transmission. There is also symbolic and mind transmission. In any case it never has to do with supernatural or energetic hocus pocus.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Well, I still try to understand why you (and all the other official students) claim, that you won't be able to progress successfully in Dzogchen training if you didn't have "direct introduction" by a teacher and would appreciate further explanations from you concerning this claim.

 

So "direct introduction" consists out of a training session with the guru where methods as mantras are applied.

 

That is how the current cycle of Dzogchen was laid out by Guru Garab Dorje; the first of his three testaments is direct introduction from a qualified teacher. Second is to familiarize with that knowledge, and the third is to continue in that knowledge. These three statements are the basis, path and result of Dzogchen. Without a basis there can be no path, without a path there can be no result. So the intimate instructions from a qualified teacher are an integral and indispensable aspect of Dzogchen and Vajrayāna in general.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

So if you would get the information, which you usually get in a personal conversation with your guru during "direct introduction", in form of a book, then you would only need a guru to assess if you are making progress?

No the introduction has to come from a living interaction, it cannot come from a book. The teacher must intend to transmit his/her knowledge and you as the student must intend to receive it in the same instance.

 

"Today some people are saying: 'The Dzogchen teaching doesn't need a teacher or transmission, you can learn it in a book and you can apply it'. This is really a very wrong view.

 

Nowadays in Western countries this kind of tradition or school is being developed but you shouldn't follow it. If you want to really follow Dzogchen teaching, that is the wrong direction. Garab Dorje received the transmission from Sambhogakāya Vajrasattva who is connected with Dharmakāya Samantabhadra, and from Garab Dorje until today we have the transmission without interruption.

 

If there is no transmission you cannot enter into real knowledge, it is impossible. That is why here... it is saying that you can really have that knowledge only if you are connected with the three transmissions. The three transmissions are just like a current.

 

For example if you have a lamp and you want to light it up you must connect it with a current, otherwise there will be no light. We are living in dualistic vision: one is one, two is two, three is three, white is white, black is black. So we are living with these concepts, we have no capacity to go beyond them, we do not know what it means to go beyond. But our real condition is beyond this, beyond numbers, beyond distance, beyond time.

 

To believe you can get this knowledge just by reading books is a fantasy."

-- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Edited July 31, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

I surely agree to that in general.

But there is always the exception to the rule and in history there might have been geniusses who figured out everything purely through the power of their own mind.

 

There certainly were practitioners of the instantaneous capacity, however they were simply ripe for realization so that when they came into contact with the guru they received full realization on the spot. They are called chig-car-bas, and according to the Dalai Lama there hasn't been one for centuries. Most practitioners are those of gradual capacity, called thod-rgal-bas. The slowest practitioner being a rim-gyis-pa.

 

In all three cases an interaction with a qualified teacher [a Vidyādhara, Bodhisattva or Buddha] is always what induces realization or recognition.

[ralis]

There certainly were practitioners of the instantaneous capacity, however they were simply ripe for realization so that when they came into contact with the guru they received full realization on the spot. They are called chig-car-bas, and according to the Dalai Lama there hasn't been one for centuries. Most practitioners are those of gradual capacity, called thod-rgal-bas. The slowest practitioner being a rim-gyis-pa.

 

In all three cases an interaction with a qualified teacher [a Vidyādhara, Bodhisattva or Buddha] is always what induces realization or recognition.

 

I had the same experiences or what you term realizations when I was very young. The very same experiences when I met Norbu. He just verified it.

[asunthatneversets]

This is a statement of your belief.

I would appreciate a logical explanation.

 

 

 

I don't follow.

 

It is not a statement of my belief, this is what the system says. Whether you choose to believe that or not is on you, but it is stated very clearly.

 

Transmission must come from a living interaction where the wisdom holder is intending to introduce you to your nature, and you are likewise intending to receive that introduction. Obviously a book is incapable of an interaction of that nature. As a book does not have body, speech or mind, it is not a sentient being much less a buddha. It does not have a body to serve as a nexus or matrix for tathatā, and therefore cannot transmit that living knowledge.

[asunthatneversets]

I had the same experiences or what you term realizations when I was very young. The very same experiences when I met Norbu. He just verified it.

 

There are various forms of awakening experience, many experiences one can have, but there is only one (valid expression of) awakening in the context of these teachings.

 

Either way, if you had a peak experience then that was simply a peak experience. Without pursuing that insight in a structured way (in order to nurture it into full buddhahood) it merely becomes a story to reminisce about.

Edited July 31, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[ralis]

There are various forms of awakening experience, many experiences one can have, but there is only one (valid expression of) awakening in the context of these teachings.

 

Are you criticizing my experience as being not valid? Lesser than yours? You don't even know me. Your post is vague and evasive as usual.

Edited July 31, 2014 by ralis

[asunthatneversets]

Are you criticizing my experience as being not valid? Lesser than yours? You don't even know me. Your post is vague and evasive as usual.

 

All experiences are valid, my point was that there can be many types of experiences however there is only one nature of mind. Whether your own experiences were validated by what Norbu Rinpoche said or not is really your own business. It is not my business, and nor does it concern me, just as my path does not concern you.

 

I obviously did not even begin to consider comparing whatever experience you had, however long ago, that I have no knowledge of, to anything I have experienced... that would be idiotic.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well, I still try to understand why you (and all the other official students) claim, that you won't be able to progress successfully in Dzogchen training if you didn't have "direct introduction" by a teacher and would appreciate further explanations from you concerning this claim.

 

So "direct introduction" consists out of a training session with the guru where methods as mantras are applied.

 

I personally feel that ALL energetic and spiritual practices need this to A. get the real deal and B. to get the energetic part of it C. so they can let if you know if/when you have your head up your... assumptions . So at a guess, Buddhist stuff would need this too.

 

However, books are big business, so no one beleives it .

Edited July 31, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

ZOOM, thank you for the interesting questions, and thank you very much asunthatneversets and others for being so patient with him and replying to each one . Good info all around. It is also helping my understanding a little.

 

Also, I realize how fortunate I am. Here we have MANY dharma centers. All of differing quality of course, but some with some decent lineages even. We also have some teachers, who just teach one on one, who specialize in certain aspects/training.

 

I guess I would have to agree that reading about the practices and information about the path in books is not even close to having it explained in person, or the practices taught in person. Though I like reading the books, they are interesting and lead to some insights; I like the sutras better though, more direct. Still... something definitely quite different about the in person teaching, and I haven't even taken refuge (there is a lot they will share with folks who haven't (I am still deciding whether I wish to or not).