what is form, has no self, or existence either formed or not

[manitou]

Or, separate good and bad. Then combine them.

[3bob]

well the good good is inherent and indivisible while the real good is a connected and dharmic spin off of that - while the bad is then a twisted spin off of such good... thus the bad is the last in line and the first to go - being poorly connected and having no lasting or inherent existence..

Edited July 21, 2014 by 3bob

[ion]

The real good is only good because there is a real bad and that is born in illusion and duality which aren't, so that being the basis of there being there is also no good, however there is what are called just being and non-doing; that is Godliness being had.

Godliness is had by not making any distinctions, and not having having a self to relate experiences and senses to. Not having made any distinctions or having a self to relate them to, who would call anything good or bad?

What is called bad and good is within the imbalance of the duality nature, which is inseparable from the self concept. When there are things being done, there is only the storm of imbalance, not being balanced extremities become apparent, having a self to relate the extremities to facilitates,

 

and potentiates the storm; until there is know one left to endure it, it's suchness will be.

With no one left to endure it, there's no one maintaining it so perfect equilibrium will be, no one is glad, because they are content just being; just being is the state of true reality. It's in true reality where the radiance of the principle enshrowds us in the sense of contentment, the sense of profound comfort, and being without friction. The sense of being one with the principle and not being one or not one, the sense of being eternal and thus un-conditionalable, and in those senses one is enraptured by the principles joy and bliss.

Life, when full of ones living it, is what is complicated, not what I'm simply saying. What I put out is lacking details for the sake of simplicity. Life comes with being and being comes with needing and doing. Life, if born with the finite has an end, and its end is death and dying. Just being and non doing is to be that which comes from the beginning and is unborn, but is because the principle is and emptiness is the principle's ever being's beginningness, that is without a start...

The reason it seems so unsimple is because it is no a thing but lays between what is black and white, not there but there, black, white and both while neither, the act of transcending, the transcendor, the transcended, and to whit it will transcend are all who are emptiness and nothing else is; therefore what is not returns to emptiness and then, emptiness is what it is.

To put in black and white is a dangerous thing but I will do so.

In the begining there was the primordial state of yin, which precedes the yang so thus precedes the yin yang interactive state of being. Nothing being; no dimensional space for a transpiration to occur, for space is substance and substance is space within substance, but there was not. Since there was only not without a place to be, its lackingness of all things and nonexistence was it's state of being. With the suchness of emptiness as all that was in what was not, there was one thing.

The one thing there is in this primordial state of yin is the quality of having absolutely no quality, so the quality is it's absoluteness. The one that gives being to the quality, is the principle within emptiness, and this is the same as what was emptiness. Emptiness is its formless form, and primordial yin is that form, but yin is not the principle itself; but is it's resting place and formless form; primordial yin is the principles initial expression and the un-strarting beginning. This emptiness is the originless origins where all states of being originate.

Infinity has no form to point at but what is infinite is filled with it, but can not be what embodies it, because of its virtue and nature it transcends the qualities attributed to it, so it only exists in principle; the principle of infinity is the principle within emptiness, its quality of absoluteness gives emptiness to the eternally empty.

While the primordial state of yin was being by there being nothing, it could not really said to have been being because there was only the suchness of notness, but that was its being.

The notness only was because there is an awareness of its being, that self awareness is just the sense of being. So the state of non-beings origins are in the mutual arising of the state of awareness of just being non-being, when one was, immediately and because of, the other was born, and the reversal is also true and the two are one and inseparable.

The mutual arising and the principle are alike and have no form, they are one, and one with emptiness.

Emptiness was, and was truly emptiness because it was filled with the principle of infinity, but the principle can not be confined to any form or state of existing as, even if the form is formless and AN infinity. With that being true is the other mode of mutual arising illustrated as such:

The primordial yin was, once it's self awareness was and vice versa; Once it was self aware, the awareness of being became the parameters of the principle of infinity. These parameters which are it's emptiness, become a thing that implies what is also emptiness but what those particular parameters and state are not an expression of, so the state of infinty as emptiness expands its being, by transcending the primordial yin state, and into the state of Yang which is also, a form of emptiness yet not expressible by its predecessor.

Up to this point it goes like this: Emptiness is the mutual arising of the sense just being=the sense of just being is the mutual arising of emptiness; to this equation (wich we could call Sb=E=Sb)is added an annexed equation which is Sb=E=Sb also equals the mutual arising of emptiness as Yang, (which also is the mutual arising of Yin in "activity" so Yang is also the mutual arising of the newer form of Yin). So all of this is within the mutual arising ,and the mutual arising is within all of this, along with certain concepts I will not touch on here for the sake of simplicity, but all of this and these are insepserrable and one with emptiness, infinity, awareness, and mutual arising into being. The symbol of yin yang shows these two who are one and having the same self awareness and sense of being in activity, the non-active Yin is seen in the symbol as the circle they are with in.

But we are not talking about Yin and Yang , we are talking about emptiness and how it is the Tao, and the Tao is the Buddha nature and middle-way.

The principle of infinity is in the middle of whats black and what is white, it is also what brings white into being and what is being all 3, (and four and is also what is being the infinite concepts by way of it's transcending the black for the white, without any of it ever coming into being as "form"...), it is the path that infinity takes leaving the illusion of form in the wake of its progression, and its path and awareness are one and the same.

To sum this up to now, let's say that emptiness is the co-arisen. The co-arisen are emptiness as action on emptiness, and emptiness in activity/ Yin-Yang, yet the action/activity are conceptual, only implied by the mutual arising of all things which "happens"all at once. What we think of as having existence does not exist, only that which came into being by the mutual arising of the principle's being which is the state of non being.. These all share one sense of being and that is the sense of just being, and the sense of just being has a selfless self-awareness of that of emptiness as an expression of being the principle of infinity.

The Tao eternal is the principle of infinity, as we see it can not be confined to one form of being., and as it knows itself to be one thing by having a sense of being that thing, it transforms into its like ness and the likeness is implied by its beingness being known by it's awareness of being, and so it was written-

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal TaoThe name that can be named is not the eternal name"

...and we see that this primordial emptiness found, "In the beginning..." is the originless who is the origin of all things, because its beingness is one with the mutual arising of its sense of being, which is one with its manifesting the co-arisen (yin-yang)as its being, and the mutual arising of the co-arisen are one with the conceptual features that are without form but give reality, and relativity their being (things like symmetry, equilibrium, interaction, diversification etc which came into being in principle/concept when primordial Yin was transcended by infinity into Yang who begot the form of Yin in activity)and to what was referenced when it was written-

The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things

The Activation of the primordial emptiness into Yin in activity is Yin producing outwardness, but without ever really doing so, but the outwardness generates a thought impression with the likeness of dimensional space because it is the opposing symmetry of Yang's conceptual inwardness which has the likeness of light or sigularity. These are the myriad creatures who are the conceptual features of reality. Things like up, down, and all the dimension of 4-d space; Things like sequence and order are, in concept within emptiness, along with things like one thing leading to another and one diversifying into another. Any attribute that can be given to an activity, or phenomenon is comprised of things that belong to the mutual arising of emptiness being, and nothing the constitute as form or form being has any reality, but is devoted to dissolution of it's illusion. The formless elements that give body to illusion are not beings dependent on emptiness, not on form. Because they ARE emptiness, they exist and their existence is eternal, in fact if the universe was destroyed and only nothing remained, then nothing would be emptiness and in that very moment it's eternity would at once would do it all over again.

Like I said, we aren't talking about yin and yang to focus on their forms as being we are talking about what is within and between them. And we are not focusing on the attributes of male and female as their qualities. their qualities are emptiness.

When we do look at yin and yang as the primordial beings that create all things, we see that it is them who spawn mind, and create the dimensional reality called relativity and fall under it's spell of illusions. This is the false and dangerous way of seeing them, or rather, it (emptiness and infinity) as them, (the male and female forces and attributes).For over 20 years now I was fooled by the image that arose in my mind by the spontaneous arising and consciousness of the Void. Within time I saw the rising light within The Void, its inverted energetic likeness which I came to learn was the same as the yin and the yang, and with that I watched the images of them within me divide, multiply and transmutate; I saw them together give rise to consciousness by whom and with they created all things. This was dwelling on nothingness, not the essence there in and the dwelling on nothingness would literally bring destruction and dissolution to everything I had, from things that had form, like the belongings a person has, to things that use form like relationships people have; all falling and crumbling by what I had in mind which was the two forces of nothingness creating all things.

Yet the very night I wrote the OP of this thread I had a realization about the Buddhas dharma on emptiness was in fact a reflection on the vision of creation that even today is something not just myself has had, the mystery of mysteries was unlocked and 20 years of studying the contents of my head were at once transformed into dharma understanding and I am seeing a new reality being born. This understanding unites the words of the Buddha and the words of Laozi as the teaching of one and the same.

Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

When we do not identify with the bodies systems and form which we are not, then we lack the concerns and desires of the body- then we are dwelling with and as infinity which is what is us, then what is seen without self is what is; because all that is seen is the path, and dharma , and the illusion of form is no more the active principle of our being. How could what is formed of finite form take action and cause activity on with what is not formed and infinite?!?!?

When we identify with the systems of the body and its form as the self then we see the illusion of form as whats real, and we are concerned about what is not real and our activities revolve around that delusion and we become neurotic.

To sum this and everything up to now, we can refer to what was written when it was seen that-

All things under Heaven derive their being from Tao in the form of Existence; Tao in the form of Existence sprang from Tao in the form of Non-Existence.
Tao is a great square with no angles, a great vessel which takes long to complete, a great sound which cannot be heard, a great image with no form.
Tao lies hid and cannot be named, yet it has the power of transmuting and perfecting all things.
Tao produced Unity; Unity produced Duality; Duality produced Trinity; and Trinity produced all existing objects. These myriad objects leave darkness behind them and embrace the light, being harmonised by the breath of Vacancy.
Tao produces all things; its Virtue nourishes them; its Nature gives them form; its Force perfects them.
Hence there is not a single thing but pays homage to Tao and extols its Virtue. This homage paid to Tao, this extolling of its Virtue, is due to no command, but is always spontaneous.
Thus it is that Tao, engendering all things, nourishes them, develops them, and fosters them; perfects them, ripens them, tends them, and protects them.
Production without possession, action without

self-assertion, development without domination this is its mysterious operation.
The World has a First Cause, which may be regarded as the Mother of the World. When one has the Mother, one can know the Child. He who knows the Child and still keeps the Mother, though his body perish, shall run no risk of harm.
It is the Way of Heaven not to strive, and yet it knows how to overcome; not to speak, and yet it knows how to obtain a response; it calls not, and things come of themselves; it is slow to move, but excellent in its designs.
Heaven's net is vast; though its meshes are wide, it lets nothing slip through.

But "it"doesn't do anything, it is done without effort any thing doing any thing. The itness of its suchness having the nature of the principle within emptiness is what completes all things and that principle gives its the momentum that gives totality to anything named by knowing its being; and it does so simply by just being.

So because there is only emptiness, all that can be is going to be and will be, so there is no need to avoid anything or do anything; there is no possession of anything or obligation to anything. If it is going to happen it will happen and no doing or contriving can make that happen, but it can only make what we do act back on us. That which doesn't belong to the path is not and cant be; that which is on the path, is the path of infinity.

There is no inherent goodness. If we conceive goodness the mutual arising conceives badness. Since the mutual arising of inherent goodness has its becoming from a self and the self is based on form and form is not, then the good and bad are also not, only passing things being passed along by beings who are passing. When there is no being passing these things on they will no longer be.

There is no simple way to put it, but not in relation to there being a difficult way to put it so its really just neither, just look at it and it is, if it is made to be simple it'll bee seen as something difficult made simple, if it is made to be difficult then it wont be seen as simple...

...it is what it is, if it is difficult seeming it is the expanded and fullness and just takes time but is simpler, if it is simple it is not simple but the same thing only condensed and without the benefit of not having the erroneous views excluded. Heres the condensed version:

the one who is none,
became two that was 3,
with and of that was the mutual arising
of all things living,
in & of eternity,
being the one who is none,
the ever resting.

The one becoming two is not the creation of duality, it is the maintaining of infinity and the birth place of unity. Duality is the creation of awareness conscious of being human and under the spell of the illusion that form is real, these "humans" made distinctions between the forms they distinguished and ascribed qualities to theses distinctions by relating them to the self-concept. That simple action is the cause of dualistic chaos ensuing. That action was the deunification of all things.

Here in existence, the snare of duality is that there is no good there is no bad, but because the good things are good in our way of thinking, we like to think that in non-duality there is only good but no bad. We cause in delusion the imbalance of the storm, and what is effective at easing discomfort and suffering but not ending it is trying to balance good and bad by aiming for the middle, and that be effective on calming the storm subtly within a person and in the relations of that person.


What is beyond the mundane and one with the path is not either it is an ultra-mundane reality that is not divided by distinction, and where in the happenings are all in equilibrium, it is the state of being before good and evil were ever born and elaborated. This from the dualistic perception could be called good, but could also be called bad, but is neither, it is just the way of infinity, and to know what that is like is to experience the consequences of being infinity. The consequences of being the principle is having no self and the principle be you, and for you to just be. It is to be in profound comfort and ease, but to know that this does not come from you or through being you but that all that is is within the one and that this is merely the fundamental state of reality just being.

Form being unreal is not the source of pleasure, it is not the source of joy, or bliss. It is not the source of love, or of comfort. It is impossible to relax your form because comfort is not your forms to have. It is not what receives joy because joy is not for form to experience. All these aspects of being only belong to the state- of non-being and are the direct result of the security in being infinity and not fearing the illusion of death, by not embracing the concept of self or self existing. It is to experience the wholeness in being not one, and not, not one, but humanity complete.
.

Edited July 22, 2014 by ion

[manitou]

I read a book once that said to dwell on the idea behind the form. This has always stuck with me.

[Marblehead]

I read a book once that said to dwell on the idea behind the form. This has always stuck with me.

You just leave my behind form alone, Okay?

[silent thunder]

I read a book once that said to dwell on the idea behind the form. This has always stuck with me.

I build scenery for films and tv for a living and this is something I'm often mulling around as I build these fantastic and odd structures for the art department.

 

It always strikes me, just how much of building something, is talking, thinking and discussing it, rather than actually cutting and attaching/fastening.

 

Especially with the things that humans make, the idea behind the form is constantly being reinforced in my daily life. Especially when the art department comes in and says 'no no no... not like that, more like this... (explanation, description, further idea expansion ad nauseum)...

 

But I like your comment and the way you put it, has me looking at all the non man made things in this way this morning. My walk should be fun! Thanks!

[GrandmasterP]

You just leave my behind form alone, Okay?

 

" Behind mountains, more mountains."

( Haitian proverb).

[manitou]

You just leave my behind form alone, Okay?

 

I'll bet, at your age, you have very little behind form. I'll bet it's morphed to your belly, lol.