what is reality and what is illusion ?

[Silent Answers]

Perspective does exist but the dimension you say you view the planet from is an illusion. Its also the " Why not " you cant give me an example we can all relate too. Illusions are lies about reality. As soon as ypu spot the lie, the truth also presents itself in a yang attribute.MARBLEhEaD..... thx for the comments. Between yes >

Are you high alllll the time or just when you post

[Brian]

the sun goes up and then goes down . Illusion ?

 

can you give us an example of the " another dimension " ? what does it look like from another dimension?

The sun appears to rise and set because we view it from the perspective of a Euclidian frame of reference pegged to the face of a rotating body. The illusion of the sun going up and down is an artifact of our "natural" set of dimensions. Viewing the system from a geocentric polar frame of reference shows the sun to be travelling around the Earth rather than rising and setting, while viewing it from a heliocentric origin shows the Earth to be simultaneously rotating, precessing and nutating while it travels (in complex companionship with the Moon) in a gravitationally bound Keplerian elliptical orbit around the Sun. Of course, this is also not the complete picture because the Sun is in movement within the Milky Way and the galaxy itself is in motion amongst its peers, etc.

 

Point being, though, that a change in perspective sometimes is quite significant.

[Nikolai1]

Bringing it back to the OP...

 

We all learn from birth the view that we are individuals living in time and space, amongst other things that also exist independently of us. All these people and things exist for a while and then dissolve or die.

 

This is the original viewpoint. ALL the religious traditions in the world try to persuade us that it is an illusion. These teachers fail to persuade 99.999% of the population.

 

The rare few become intellectually enlightened. The first thing they notice is that the above viewpoint can be complemented by a second viewpoint. That all we see is a horizontal tree in the forest and there is no grounds to suppose that it fell, or indeed even existed before this moment. Indeed, speculation about the tree annihilates the tree and ensures that the tree is no more.

 

TaoMaster, the author of this thread, is one of the rare few who has seen the indubitable intellectual validity of the second viewpoint. He has understood the truly radical and shocking teaching of the spiritual masters

 

So often these rare few, still attached to the notion of truth, swap the first view for the second. They think that 99.99% of the populace are in illusion and that they, with this new perspective, have attained reality.

 

But this is called 'being trapped in emptiness'. They are still relating to reality through the intellect and not directly in the raw sense.

 

Eventually they see that the tree can be understood either as an independent entity in time and space or, as a present moment event without history or meaning.

 

This is the second massive shock.

 

Everything can be viewed to exist and, if we like, to not exist.

 

This is a massive mortification. It is the end of philosophy. The end of discussion. The end of being 'right' about anything. Whether we are materialists like Marblehead, or subjective idealists like Tao Master, neither hits the mark. Talk about stuff seems very futile.

 

This mortification is also the end of trying to approach reality through the mind. From now on we have no choice but to simply BE the moment itself, directly and without mediation by anything.

 

This process is indescribable. The spiritual teachers try to shake us out of the first viewpoint by telling us about the second; but to shake us out the second they have no way other than to tell us that their own teachings are worthless.

 

It takes a leap of immense daring to leave the intellect behind and with it the ego. It is an act of suicide, and I'm not speaking figuratively. It's no surprise that so few are willing.

[Marblehead]

 

It takes a leap of immense daring to leave the intellect behind and with it the ego. It is an act of suicide, and I'm not speaking figuratively. It's no surprise that so few are willing.

Well, don't expect me to be doing that any time soon.

[TaoMaster]

Bringing it back to the OP...

 

We all learn from birth the view that we are individuals living in time and space, amongst other things that also exist independently of us. All these people and things exist for a while and then dissolve or die.

This is the original viewpoint. ALL the religious traditions in the world try to persuade us that it is an illusion. These teachers fail to persuade 99.999% of the population.

 

The rare few become intellectually enlightened. The first thing they notice is that the above viewpoint can be complemented by a second viewpoint. That all we see is a horizontal tree in the forest and there is no grounds to suppose that it fell, or indeed even existed before this moment. Indeed, speculation about the tree annihilates the tree and ensures that the tree is no more.

 

TaoMaster, the author of this thread, is one of the rare few who has seen the indubitable intellectual validity of the second viewpoint. He has understood the truly radical and shocking teaching of the spiritual masters

thing is , i was never taught by any spiritual masters .. not directly in full anyway . just small amounts of truth i picked up from a life time of looking by many others . If i could relate to it in my own life , then it was a true thing .

So often these rare few, still attached to the notion of truth, swap the first view for the second. They think that 99.99% of the populace are in illusion and that they, with this new perspective, have attained reality.

 

But this is called 'being trapped in emptiness'. They are still relating to reality through the intellect and not directly in the raw sense.

i do both . subjectivly ( intellectually ) and objectively ( in the raw sense ) I do have the feeling of being trapped in emptiness at times but its a trap i know how to walk out of . I know too much to be trapped now.

Eventually they see that the tree can be understood either as an independent entity in time and space or, as a present moment event without history or meaning.

 

This is the second massive shock.

 

Everything can be viewed to exist and, if we like, to not exist.

 

This is a massive mortification. It is the end of philosophy. The end of discussion. The end of being 'right' about anything. Whether we are materialists like Marblehead, or subjective idealists like Tao Master, neither hits the mark. Talk about stuff seems very futile.

 

This mortification is also the end of trying to approach reality through the mind. From now on we have no choice but to simply BE the moment itself, directly and without mediation by anything.

 

This process is indescribable. The spiritual teachers try to shake us out of the first viewpoint by telling us about the second; but to shake us out the second they have no way other than to tell us that their own teachings are worthless.

 

It takes a leap of immense daring to leave the intellect behind and with it the ego. It is an act of suicide, and I'm not speaking figuratively. It's no surprise that so few are willing.

i havnt killed myself and dont plan on it anytime soon or ever . But some days it seems like I have both literally and figuratively. Im having way too much fun . both subjectivly and objectivly. Illusions are vanishing more and more progressivly now .

 

but i do like your post

[3bob]

Bringing it back to the OP...

 

We all learn from birth the view that we are individuals living in time and space, amongst other things that also exist independently of us. All these people and things exist for a while and then dissolve or die.

 

This is the original viewpoint. ALL the religious traditions in the world try to persuade us that it is an illusion. These teachers fail to persuade 99.999% of the population.

 

The rare few become intellectually enlightened. The first thing they notice is that the above viewpoint can be complemented by a second viewpoint. That all we see is a horizontal tree in the forest and there is no grounds to suppose that it fell, or indeed even existed before this moment. Indeed, speculation about the tree annihilates the tree and ensures that the tree is no more.

 

TaoMaster, the author of this thread, is one of the rare few who has seen the indubitable intellectual validity of the second viewpoint. He has understood the truly radical and shocking teaching of the spiritual masters

 

So often these rare few, still attached to the notion of truth, swap the first view for the second. They think that 99.99% of the populace are in illusion and that they, with this new perspective, have attained reality.

 

But this is called 'being trapped in emptiness'. They are still relating to reality through the intellect and not directly in the raw sense.

 

Eventually they see that the tree can be understood either as an independent entity in time and space or, as a present moment event without history or meaning.

 

This is the second massive shock.

 

Everything can be viewed to exist and, if we like, to not exist.

 

This is a massive mortification. It is the end of philosophy. The end of discussion. The end of being 'right' about anything. Whether we are materialists like Marblehead, or subjective idealists like Tao Master, neither hits the mark. Talk about stuff seems very futile.

 

This mortification is also the end of trying to approach reality through the mind. From now on we have no choice but to simply BE the moment itself, directly and without mediation by anything.

 

This process is indescribable. The spiritual teachers try to shake us out of the first viewpoint by telling us about the second; but to shake us out the second they have no way other than to tell us that their own teachings are worthless.

 

It takes a leap of immense daring to leave the intellect behind and with it the ego. It is an act of suicide, and I'm not speaking figuratively. It's no surprise that so few are willing.

 

(previous was moved)

Edited September 5, 2014 by 3bob

[TaoMaster]

the universe has not changed since its conception , we live the same ways life time after life time. Its nothing more than knowing , not remembering , knowing how it was created. We were all there when it was . We are the architects of the universe and we are the only thing that keeps us from knowing what we in fact created.

 

You were there just as much as i was. Theres only 1 spiritual life and many physical life forms.

 

humans are no different than a tree with leaves. The leaves drop off and new leaves are grown . Sometimes a whole branch dies but the tree lives on . On until itt too as a whole dies off.

 

humans are not trees , we are the leaves of the tree. We drop off no differently but some day the tree called humanity will pass away and other trees will take our place .

 

Its a cycle we have been through countless numbers of times.

[Marblehead]

Someone has been smoking too much weed.

[3bob]

I'd say,

It's not really suicide its birth to that which is, it's not really daring it's surrender, its not really for the elite .001% it's for the pure of heart, it's not far from reach, it's the indestructible being everywhere, it's shining wisdom after darkness and it's hand is an embracing kindness and compassion, there is a time for not knowing and knowing and that is well, for a seed needs the cover of earth while a tree needs the fullness of the sun. "Fear not". Om

[Spotless]

If we are unable to speak of reality because we are from illusion then we should caution against the use of the fool that is in the drivers seat.

 

This driver sits atop our horse an buggy and runs the show.

He has put blinders on the horse and the real self inside is not allowed to speak because the driver is forever going somewhere and can't stop or speak with the horse or the person in the carriage.

 

In reality, the horse has intuition, it can see the future, it has all the features of a great spirit vehicle but it is being whipped and driven by a driver who should only be looking out for a very few simple things and who needs to be no bigger than a tiny mouse because he never needs to pull on the reins, instead he could talk calmly to the great vehicle if he should ever talk at all.

 

And the mouse is never needed for directions because it should be in charge of no decisions - as lower mind it needs to understand it is not to talk, not to banter, not to whip the great vehicle, not to yank on the reins and go off on constant tangents. It is not to upset the stillness and wonder with loud speakers and insistence that it has something important to say - for it never has anything important to say that either the great vehicle or the inner self are not already aware of.

 

At that point when the idiot becomes a mouse or ceases altogether to exist and the great vehicle is no longer a beaten beast of burden but the magnificent and gallant servant of the self - then what reality is may become ever clear.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Spotless

[Marblehead]

But the horse is real, and so is the mouse (idiot), as well as the person in the carriage. They are all going the same way because of the will of the person in the carriage.

 

What follows what? The TTC speaks to this.

[Spotless]

Illusion is not affliction: would the resident philosophers make a note of that, please? Affliction is not knowing you are afflicted.

 

 

mr stimpy said:

 

 

This is correct. I wasn't going to post, but…

 

In terms of the OP, Reality is not absolute, nor is it conditions: certainly it is not a matter of distinctions based on an habitual consciousness afflicted with the illusion of separate personal selfish views constituting reality.

 

Illusion is the affliction of self-reflective views. Reality is not being afflicted by self-reflective views.

 

The literalists may not be able to distinguish the subtlety, as it is not a matter of intellectual reasoning. It's just real… no one knows why it is so. Reality is flux inherently fused with potential. Seeing potential is seeing reality in every created cycle without going along with creation. Go along with flux and yer dead meat~ over and over and over again. It's the meaning of birth and death. It's thoughts unawares.

 

Reality is noticing thoughts as they arise and not following them; apply this to situations by analogy and cease birth and death by yourself in the microcosm in order to arrive at beginningless in the macrocosm. That's reality inside and out.

 

It is not that the absolute is empty or the world is illusory— if you can see nothingness in the midst of ordinary affairs while adapting fully engaged in response to situations, this is reality. Buddhism calls this the Supreme Vehicle. Taoism refers to this as entering the Tao in reality.

 

Seeing as how a few of the philosophers are present, I just hate to use the word selfless in this context— not because it isn't the identity of one's natural function in terms of the expression of one's enlightening being, and whose purpose is carrying out the quality of response absorbed of the real (neither absolute nor conditional), but because the word selfless scares the bejesus out of these people. They just can't wrap their li'l heads around the term. They think it refers to the individual identity. No one can understand this— it's inconceivable. That's reality. But being afflicted by delusion, they simply don't know you can't understand inconceivability. It's not words. Fortunately, only the most intelligent ones are afflicted thusly. 'Tis a pity.❤

 

Reality is the real self expressing unity. It is Mind. Seeing this unity is seeing reality~ miniskirts and bikinis included.

 

The real self is naturally void of the coming and going (birth and death) of self-conditioned views. Views come and go, but real people do not follow birth and death. They rest in the highest good, the incipience of potential reality, which has no coming or going. The pivot of awareness is the causeless result in perpetuity. This is reality and it has never looked different than illusion.

 

Karma is created process and reality is its potential essence. If you see this in ordinary affairs, this is the highest good, reality as is: thigh-highs and garters too. Throw in a few ice-ages and human-caused regional and global conflicts, epic migrations and your favorite Hollywood thriller. It's real. All of it— if you can see the real by virtue of the false.

 

If you cannot see reality, your affliction is not due to illusion, it is due to selfish views and stubborn ignorance of the nature of reality, which by nature is inherently selfless.

 

Reality is naturally void of self, so reality is spontaneously apparent to those who see without dependence on the self-reflective habitually discriminatory psychological consciousness. Reality is naturally so for those who do not cling to appearances. There is no other reality other than the one on both sides of your pointed nose. Inside and outside is one complete reality as is without deliberations.

 

The question should be "Who is reality and illusion?" This gets back to there being no separate nature, but that can't be deliberated so it is beyond the recreational pursuit of philosophical discussion. There is nothing to agree (or disagree) on in words, because it is wordless. Philosophy can only deliberate illusory objects accessible by intellectual conceptualization.

 

I have long considered this disadvantage of the fact of immediate impersonal knowledge in terms of why philosophers not only can not, but will not suspend their habitual reasoning apparatus for the instant it is necessary for the sudden realization of nonorigination to occur. The affliction (pastime) of recreational existential TALKING is too concretized to see the underlying (in broad daylight) reality.

 

Besides, reality and illusion is the nature of selflessness. BOO!! hahahhahaa!!❤

 

Another superb post!

 

Could you expand / clarify on this:

 

"Reality is flux inherently fused with potential. Seeing potential is seeing reality in every created cycle without going along with creation."

 

Thank you!

[deci belle]

Hi Spotless~ merci-vous!

 

"Reality is flux inherently fused with potential. Seeing potential is seeing reality in every created cycle without going along with creation."

 

Reality is neither absolute nor conditioned. It is the same as the term Suchness. It is the world as yourself; this is your unconditional acceptance taking the forward step to meet conditions without reservation. Impersonal acceptance is the natural function of open awareness activated in terms of seeing reality as is without conceiving relative notions pertaining to the particular (creation). Taoism calls this matching one's inherent potential with creative evolution to become a partner of Creation, therefore outside the influence of change.

 

It is a matter of mastering the third and fourth hexagrams where adepts ply the functional aspect of the endless alternation of yin and yang in terms of every created cycle. This is the celestial mechanism, taking over creation by working the firing process of spiritual alchemy wherein the timing of the yin convergence is strictly adhered to in terms of the levity and gravity of selfless energy.

 

This is seeing reality no different than delusion, yet one does not go along with the polluted energy, the psychological momentum of situations, the matrix of karmic evolution. Seeing reality just means not going along with creation, that's all.

 

Therefore there is no going along in adherence to the temporal in terms of convention by habituation to psychologically concretizing oneself as a separate particle amongst particles. Though one takes advantage of the logical benefits of ego function, one's identity is one's selfless function partaking of spiritual transcendence within creative evolution.

 

Real identity is by virtue of the essence of awareness itself. Taoism calls this the Virtue of the Receptive. Assuming sameness within difference is going along with essence. This is the Changeless. Those who see reality assume the perspective of causeless nonorigination. Knowledge of the nature of changes is not subject to Change.

 

Complete reality being an ungraspable (created) flux undifferentiated from inherent (uncreated) potential is oneself floating around in the center of the compass, where the pivot of incipient awareness is one's inconceivable perspective seeing through phenomena without denying characteristics.

 

 

 

 

ed note: one too many "in terms of" in the 4th paragraph

Edited September 6, 2014 by deci belle

[Jetsun]

Reality is whatever is happening, so if its raining its raining, illusion is whatever we lay over the top when we start to believe the thoughts we have about what is, so we start thinking it shouldn't be raining because its summer, or its proof God hates me because he always rains on me, or my day is ruined because I got wet etc etc etc,

[dogson]

This thread is so funny! From my perspective the focus isn't reality versus illusion, but rather, what should we do about it?

I have so many experiences where my emotional energy seems to "create reality." Or to change reality. So these days, I really deeply subscribe to the idea of taking 100% responsibility for everything in life, literally, as though I had created it. I try to love what I'm doing as much as possible, and if something comes up which seems...off? Hard? Annoying? Frustrating? Or other than excellent, I just ask myself, what is it within me that this is happening? and I just say, I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me. And I feel gratitude for everything around me.

 

Try it, sincerely. Go to a sunday brunch, to a hyper-chaotic restaurant, and just go in there, "I love you." In Huna this is called "cleaning." It's so powerful.

[Marblehead]

 

Try it, sincerely. Go to a sunday brunch, to a hyper-chaotic restaurant, and just go in there, "I love you." In Huna this is called "cleaning." It's so powerful.

Are you sure you want me to try that down here in Redneck Country? I don't think so.

[TaoMaster]

Illusion is what you are wrong about. The rest is reality.

Very well said . It's a lie , illusion that is . And reality is the truth.

 

Truth and reality , yang. Illusions and lies, yin . But that's a different thread .

 

Another guy Dogson , in an earlier post to this thread , said , in other words, it's not so much about the differences than it is about what can be done about it . All my threads are about what can be done about it .

 

Know what's yang and yin and you can do something about it . That and much more .

 

Reality is yang and illusion is yin .

 

See my thread called how do we know what's yang and what's yin.

Edited September 7, 2014 by TaoMaster

[Marblehead]

Very well said . It's a lie , illusion that is . And reality is the truth.

 

 

Well, I do agree with this.

 

I'm not ready to accept the rest though.

[TaoMaster]

Well, I do agree with this.

 

I'm not ready to accept the rest though.

 

No problem , it's not for me in enforce reality or stip away illusions on anyone but he's very close to the far side of reality .

 

The fact is that if a thing does not exist or does not happen before YOUR eyes, you human eyeballs, it doesn't exists and it didn't happen .

 

If life can only know things that exist , yang

 

Then by the law of duality ,

 

Every thing that life does not know , does not exist .

 

This is the far left side , the yang side of reality . It's as real as real gets . All else is an illusion .

 

When you sit in your room alone , only your room exists, nothing else.

 

Hence , my note . " for the advanced taoists "

 

You may hear a truck drive by or some birds chirping but it's only the sounds that exist , not the cars and birds .

 

Illusion or reality , ? Which is which ?

[3bob]

Are you sure you want me to try that down here in Redneck Country? I don't think so.

 

Handing out fresh buffalo wings while saying aloha might work better...

[Marblehead]

The fact is that if a thing does not exist or does not happen before YOUR eyes, you human eyeballs, it doesn't exists and it didn't happenI'm not

I'm not that far out. Give me a break.

 

But don't expect me to accept your illusions and delusions.

[silent thunder]

I'm reminded of walking in the forest with a friend, who compulsively talks,

incessantly describing everything seen and felt giving a verbal play by play...

 

As we walk in the same woods, we are not experiencing the same phenomenal reality at all

yet we both participate in the real.

 

Perspective is all important and supremely determining in relativistic duality which is perspective/relative position dependent.

Where the core of the earth is quite hot compared to the ocean, it is simultaneously quite cool compared to the surface of the sun, truth abides beyond/beneath relativistic duality...

 

it is beyond this relativistic process that i sense reality, the rest is maya

[TaoMaster]

Roger that , same here. I went into an art gallery and the hostess described what she saw in the painting while I described something completely different than my own reality of what I was seeing. Even though the painting is the same .

 

From my perspective , only the perspective is different between person to person and sometimes the same. But like the paintings and forests, yang and yin do don't change from person to person , just the perspective from one person to the next .

 

There are levels of reality from illusion at the bottom ( yin ) to reality on top ( yang ) no matter what I say or try to illustrate , if ones really level is only so so and less than mine , they will not see what I see. Same for me as well .

 

I'm certain there must be others who see what I do but we have not met yet .

 

I'm also very certain there are others who will never see what I do ....... Ever. No matter what I say or show them .

 

It's a route one needs to climb up them self just like I had to do myself.

 

I have not met anyone who can show me different perspectives for the same yang and yins. Same context too. It's not possible . If it were then all those who have stepped up to say perspective is a factor would simple give me at the very least , one if not more real life examples.

 

I've asked many for examples over and over but no one will because they can't. This is how I prove my preaching.

 

Of a thing can not be disproved as true then by the law of duality , it must be true.

 

So I hold my ground on this and will gladly step down when anyone can prove perspective changes yang and yin . Word for word , without changing context or definition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm reminded of walking in the forest with a friend, who compulsively talks,

incessantly describing everything seen and felt giving a verbal play by play...

 

As we walk in the same woods, we are not experiencing the same phenomenal reality at all

yet we both participate in the real.

 

Perspective is all important and supremely determining in relativistic duality which is perspective/relative position dependent.

Where the core of the earth is quite hot compared to the ocean, it is simultaneously quite cool compared to the surface of the sun, truth abides beyond/beneath relativistic duality...

 

it is beyond this relativistic process that i sense reality, the rest is maya

[TaoMaster]

Perspective by definition is merely an attitude . An attitude will not change yang and yin . It have nothing to do with dimension either.

 

Nor a point of view.

 

Yang will always be yang and yin yin no matter the attitude , point of view or dimensions.

 

But that's on the " yang yin thread I started "

 

There is only 1 dimension . It's right in front of you . You can add the other dimensions , opinions attitudes, and perspectives you want but that will not change what is right in front of you .

 

https://www.google.com/#q=perspective+

 

The universe is a sphere that is projected by life through the sun via the life forms . It's governed by the law of duality and is generated by yang and yin .

 

It appears and vanishes like our thoughts do . Out thoughts are projected no differently than the physical universe.

 

This is my reality as it is now but it changes to lower levels as needed when having conversations with others at a lower level .

 

There is no thing behind us , only an illusion that there is . An illusion that generates dimension and perspectives with the use of yang and yin .

 

There is only what's before us right now and nothing more than the consideration that there is something more.

 

 

 

[Silent Answers]

Well, you ignored at least 2 "real life examples" that were provided in my post...but rightly so. If I had you were lowering your level for us, I wouldn't have bothered trying. I suppose one should expect nothing less when conversing with a master of Tao.