what is reality and what is illusion ?

[Silent Answers]

 

Love to , but heres just 2 , I need to go run an errand now .

 

you have a dream of having a ton of cash in the bank. The dream is real but when you wake, you REALize its not true.

 

Both the dream and the fact youre as broke as a circus clown are both true. The dream is an illusion and yet it exists because you perceived it . Anything that exists is real . a no thing is not real because it does not exist .

 

Dude, I can give you an endess list , not just three.

 

can you give me 1 example of how what I say is not true now ?

 

a car is driving towards you from a distance. You see its a ford falcon. But when the car gets close to you you see it from all its sides its like hey WTH ? its only a photograph of the front of a ford falcon . Its really a chevy nova with a photograph of a ford on it .

 

Both the photo of the car and the car are real things. the photo is an illusion and the car is real . When you see the photo , the illusion vanishes and now its all real .

Dreams don't count as you can't prove they are real or not. There's only your word to go by again, buddy.

 

Who drives around with a photo of another car on their vehicle?? Even if I allow it as an example, it's still wrong... A disguise is not so much an illusion. The sun doesn't pretend to rise and set each day, it's our perception of it doing so that is the illusion.

 

I can come up with plenty of examples for both cases too; the point is I want to hear them from a master.

 

Enjoy the trip.

[TaoMaster]

thanks , your comment made me laugh.

 

I can give you thousands of examples and you can reject them all so im gonna pass .

 

I see you're upset and i TOTALLY know why but you wouldn't believe me . You'd shoot it down too . Thats what yin does. Its says no , its negative and it also has negative sensations .

 

its like a game in a way

 

i serve the ball and you throw it back and say no . I serve it a little different and you say no . No matter what I say or how I serve the ball you say no and toss it back .

 

sometimes you dont comment and thats good too . Better to say nothing than to say something negative .

 

Ive browsed some of the others threads and i don't agree with many of the things others say . But I don't post up and comment in a negative way . I just move on and I think there are many who don't see what i do and just move on without a negative comment too.

 

so with that said , can you give me some examples of something true and something that is an illusion ?

 

any thing that is perceivable by life is real in some way or it would not be perceptible in any way .

 

if an illusion is perceptible then it too is real . They are two poles of duality reality and illusion .

Dreams don't count as you can't prove they are real or not. There's only your word to go by again, buddy.

 

Who drives around with a photo of another car on their vehicle?? Even if I allow it as an example, it's still wrong... A disguise is not so much an illusion. The sun doesn't pretend to rise and set each day, it's our perception of it doing so that is the illusion.

 

I can come up with plenty of examples for both cases too; the point is I want to hear them from a master.

 

Enjoy the trip.

Edited September 14, 2014 by TaoMaster

[Silent Answers]

thanks , your comment made me laugh.

 

I can give you thousands of examples and you can reject them all so im gonna pass .

 

I see you're upset and i TOTALLY know why but you wouldn't believe me . You'd shoot it down too . Thats what yin does. Its says no , its negative and it also has negative sensations .

 

its like a game in a way

 

i serve the ball and you throw it back and say no . I serve it a little different and you say no . No matter what I say or how I serve the ball you say no and toss it back .

 

sometimes you dont comment and thats good too . Better to say nothing than to say something negative .

 

Ive browsed some of the others threads and i don't agree with many of the things others say . But I don't post up and comment in a negative way . I just move on and I think there are many who don't see what i do and just move on without a negative comment too.

 

so with that said , can you give me some examples of something true and something that is an illusion ?

 

any thing that is perceivable by life is real in some way or it would not be perceptible in any way .

 

if an illusion is perceptible then it too is real . They are two poles of duality reality and illusion .

You misunderstand. Who's angry/upset/frustrated? Replying you takes just a moment and very little energy, and when you reply...it's so worth it.

[TaoMaster]

here is an illusion that im certain will not be accepted as truth .

 

when we are outside and the sun is shining we see and feel the sun

 

when we are inside the house with all the blinds closed , we do not see or feel the sun

 

the illusion is that there is a sun outsdie but because we dont see it does not mean it does not exist

 

the reality is that when we do not see the sun it does not exist . period.

 

when we feel the suns heat but do not see the sun , it still does not exist . only the heat exists.

 

this , as ive mentioned in earlier posts the far extreme of reality and illusions.

 

the consideration is real . anything you consider is real in that it is perceivable by you . It may not be real to others but that does not make it real or not for you .

 

of its not real for you , then it isnt real . It may be real for others but until its real for you it simply does not exist.

 

nothing behind you exists either . Sounds coming from behind you ? yes but only the sound. The car does not until you know it does.

 

we can only know things that exist to be known

 

so by law

 

things you do not know , do not exist .

 

most people will say ok , man you are totally insane , youve lost your mind and are a complete lunatic.

 

not so

 

yes I do not have a mind , but i can whip one up in an instant at will 24/7 365

 

i dont see the illusions most, if not all, others do.

 

sanity ? more so than most if not all than others as well .

 

happy, fun, laughter, brightness, intelligent and the other yang attributes ? almost all yang all the time . Not so much yin but i can certainly sense yin attributes from others and it feels horrible .

[Marblehead]

You need to get your subjective reality straightened out from objective reality. Objective reality has nothing to do with you except for the space your body is in.

[TaoMaster]

You need to get your subjective reality straightened out from objective reality. Objective reality has nothing to do with you except for the space your body is in.

never said it did , .....link ?

 

ive always known subjective is mental and objective is physical . Actually they are both physical but two poles of the same spectrum .

 

anything subjective or objective is physical becuase its perceivable . anything perceivable is physical . its made up of particles, matter , energy and sensation.

 

including subjective , whats your point MH ?

 

what is it that you are opposed to in my post?

[Marblehead]

never said it did , .....link ?

 

ive always known subjective is mental and objective is physical . Actually they are both physical but two poles of the same spectrum .

 

anything subjective or objective is physical becuase its perceivable . anything perceivable is physical . its made up of particles, matter , energy and sensation.

 

including subjective , whats your point MH ?

 

what is it that you are opposed to in my post?

Hehehe. Your mental illusions and delusions are NOT physical reality. That's the problem I had with that post above.

 

All thoughts are illusion (because they cannot be seen by anyone else) until they are put into action and then, and only then, do they become physical reality.

 

Rabbits exist; the Easter Bunny does not.

 

My point is that we need to live in this physical reality and not on some cloud nine somewhere.

 

Sure, it is nice to relax and imagine some reality where all is love and peace. But we must remember that this is not reality because of the greed of man.

[TaoMaster]

Hehehe. Your mental illusions and delusions are NOT physical reality. That's the problem I had with that post above.

 

All thoughts are illusion (because they cannot be seen by anyone else) until they are put into action and then, and only then, do they become physical reality.

 

Rabbits exist; the Easter Bunny does not.

 

My point is that we need to live in this physical reality and not on some cloud nine somewhere.

 

Sure, it is nice to relax and imagine some reality where all is love and peace. But we must remember that this is not reality because of the greed of man.

i wouldnt say that all thoughts are illusions . I have thoughts of short skirts and bikinis and i see short skirts and bikinis but i know what you mean .

 

i consider an illisuion not real and real not an illusion but actually they are both the same thing .

 

a thousand people can see the same illusion so just because my thoughts or your thoughts can not be seen by others does not correctly define what an illusion is . Perhaps its you with delusional illusions ?

 

anything perceivable by us is real in terms that if it wasnt real it would not exist in anyway .

 

i think ive come to a conclusion about yang and yin AKA duality. You mentioned at as well in other terms , realitivity is also realitivity .

 

duality is also bound by the law of duality

 

in other words there are some things that can be changed by perspective in terms of duality and some things that can not .

 

this also proves my point that duality does exist and can not be changed by oppinion or perspective and at the same time it CAN be changed by perspective and oppinion .

 

you cant change up and down but you can stand on your head and then down becomes up and up down . The sky is always up and the ground is always down even from outer space while you look up at the earth .

 

a tracffic ticket is good for the cop and bad for the guy who ran the stop sign . its still a ticket none the less.

 

so even the laws of duality are subject to the laws of duality and there is no exception to this .

 

fast and slow are both attributes of speed or time in the singular term.

 

so far no one has explained this to me in these terms . This is the purpose of my threads to get a better understanding and i hope others do too .

 

i havent been put in my place ive just got better from all of this and im sure others have had some benifit as well . I know so , ive been told by them more than once .

[Marblehead]

 

i havent been put in my place ive just got better from all of this and im sure others have had some benifit as well . I know so , ive been told by them more than once .

Oh, you'll be fine. I can tell you do at least listen to what others say to you in response. That's good. Whether you change your mind about anything you believe is less important. The important thing is that you are secure with what you believe.

 

Yes, ladies in short shirts or bikinis can be imagined but, just as with Tao, one cannot reach out and touch them.

[TaoMaster]

Oh, you'll be fine. I can tell you do at least listen to what others say to you in response. That's good. Whether you change your mind about anything you believe is less important. The important thing is that you are secure with what you believe.

 

Yes, ladies in short shirts or bikinis can be imagined but, just as with Tao, one cannot reach out and touch them.

MH can you tell me in your own words what the TAO means ? Ive read definitions of it so I have my own understanding and consider myself a master of it but id like to hear from others what it means. Tao . I also hear different definitions of my avatar and what it means and the little white dots that you have in you symbol in your signature .

 

BTW I dont listen to everyone who posts to me directly . I will always listen to anyonyone at first and continue and many times coment but if their posts are directed to me in a derogotory way too often , i just put them on ignore list and the posters who I cant put on that list I simple do not read one word of their posts anymore.

 

thx bro !!

[Wu Ming Jen]

Generally speaking, tao is used in the earliest writings either as a verb or a noun. As a

verb, it means "to lead," "to guide," or "to tell." As a noun, it means "road," "way,"

"word," "principle,"

The main reason that Lao Tzu adopted the word tao to name the

ultimate reality is probably because by his time it was already used philosophically to

stand for what is real, true, and good. What is real, true, and good must have been

understood to be the "way" or "guiding force" (tao) of the universe as well as in man's life

[Silent Answers]

 

Generally speaking, tao is used in the earliest writings either as a verb or a noun. As a

verb, it means "to lead," "to guide," or "to tell." As a noun, it means "road," "way,"

"word," "principle,"

 

The main reason that Lao Tzu adopted the word tao to name the

ultimate reality is probably because by his time it was already used philosophically to

stand for what is real, true, and good. What is real, true, and good must have been

understood to be the "way" or "guiding force" (tao) of the universe as well as in man's life

To follow on from this and put Dao into context, it refers to a "path" that one should walk throughout their life's journey, to reach fulfilment along the "way". It hints that there is no destination to reach, rather it's guiding principles need to be continuously reinforced until you are able to completely untangle your self, then reintegrate with new understanding. This process too will most likely repeat throughout one's life.

 

It's a simple character with deep meaning.

[TaoMaster]

 

Generally speaking, tao is used in the earliest writings either as a verb or a noun. As a

verb, it means "to lead," "to guide," or "to tell." As a noun, it means "road," "way,"

"word," "principle,"

The main reason that Lao Tzu adopted the word tao to name the

ultimate reality is probably because by his time it was already used philosophically to

stand for what is real, true, and good. What is real, true, and good must have been

understood to be the "way" or "guiding force" (tao) of the universe as well as in man's life

thanks , this is interesting and sound like me but no one seems to want to follow my lead or guide.

 

ive given everyone a way to follow more than once in my threads that are very somple and easy to do that will produce huge results and im here to guide and tell you about them too . Not to sell books or make money . Ive got plenty of money already .

 

the things i tell is also about truth and the vanishment of illusions. , mans life and the universe but also spiritual life as well , the creator of all things and the unspoken and unknown. These can be spoken of and they can be known. I know because i speak of it and i know it .

 

if im not a tao master in present time , then no one is. This is me in every and fullest sence of the word.

[Marblehead]

MH can you tell me in your own words what the TAO means ? Ive read definitions of it so I have my own understanding and consider myself a master of it but id like to hear from others what it means. Tao . I also hear different definitions of my avatar and what it means and the little white dots that you have in you symbol in your signature .

 

BTW I dont listen to everyone who posts to me directly . I will always listen to anyonyone at first and continue and many times coment but if their posts are directed to me in a derogotory way too often , i just put them on ignore list and the posters who I cant put on that list I simple do not read one word of their posts anymore.

 

thx bro !!

So you have selective hearing, do you? Hehehe.

 

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. However,

 

Tao is the beginning of all things and all non-things. Tao is the end of all things and all non-things. Tao is all the processes between these two.

 

And let us not forget the last four lines of Chapter 25 of the TTC:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows Tzujan.

 

(Tzujan basically meaning its own naturalness.)

 

In reality, we rarely speak of Tao. Most of what we talk about is Te.

 

Tao is not a thing so it cannot be pointed at.

 

But then, Tao is also the principles by which the universe operates. (I like "principles" better than "laws".)

 

However, it is important to observe the processes of Tao and all things so that we can determine how best to practice Te.

[TaoMaster]

 

Let's talk about the unspoken Tao , shall we ? The beginning and end of all things . Good I like this definition you've mentioned.

 

Visualize if you will , a five year old girl . In her left hand ( yang ) a ken doll and I her right hand a Barbie doll ( yin )

 

Now move the two dolls around like you're playing house or what ever you'd like to imagine.

 

Now make the five year old girl be invisible but still present .

 

THIS is the unspoken Tao. The invisible five year old girl . She is the 1 who puts the dolls there in the beginning and takes the away in the end.

 

But she is invisible to herself to make the play time between the two dolls more interesting and sensational .

 

Once she knows it's only her controlling both dolls, the play time between them gets dull and uninteresting. cease she knows it's only herself controlling both dolls . It's like you playing a game of Chinese checkers alone. No opponents.

 

This is the unspoken Tao you can now speak about.

 

I've been the five year old girl and known it while I was her .

 

But it's not just ken and Barbie . It's all life. Forms in the universe that this girl has complete absolute control of .

 

She has unlimited ability to do anything any time anywhere any how but she govererns herself with your so called principals that I call the law of duality.

 

Questions ? ( smile )

 

 

So you have selective hearing, do you? Hehehe.

 

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. However,

 

Tao is the beginning of all things and all non-things. Tao is the end of all things and all non-things. Tao is all the processes between these two.

 

And let us not forget the last four lines of Chapter 25 of the TTC:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows Tzujan.

 

(Tzujan basically meaning its own naturalness.)

 

In reality, we rarely speak of Tao. Most of what we talk about is Te.

 

Tao is not a thing so it cannot be pointed at.

 

But then, Tao is also the principles by which the universe operates. (I like "principles" better than "laws".)

 

However, it is important to observe the processes of Tao and all things so that we can determine how best to practice Te.

[Marblehead]

No questions but two comments:

 

First, nice analogy for anyone who needs any form of control in their life.

 

Second, I would never have imagined such an analogy because it implies a thinking, controlling entity causing these things to happen. It is too close to personifying Tao and way too close to creating another god. We don't need any more gods; we already have way too many.

 

 

 

But still, nice visualizations on your part.

[Bud Jetsun]

Once she knows it's only her controlling both dolls, the play time between them gets dull and uninteresting. cease she knows it's only herself controlling both dolls . It's like you playing a game of Chinese checkers alone. No opponents. This is the unspoken Tao you can now speak about.

 

 

To model a consciousness as a doll is to misunderstand the nature of reality. The consciousness creates it's reality through the thoughts it chooses to have, continuously creating the illusion (or non-illusion if the consciousness has embraced oneness/void as all). There is no invisible hand moving it, it is not needed. The duality occurs because the mind creating each reality has only two root thought-types, Love and Fear. (though to express those roots of all thoughts as such is like calling the ocean a damp spot).

 

There is no guiding hand, or guiding force that is external to each individual consciousness creating it's reality by choosing to think whatever it may believe reality to be. Duality is inherent in the reality of all consciousness while that consciousness is choosing to have thoughts of reality, as all thought has only 2 sources of origin, Love or Fear. (many labels for these terms across various cultures, no textual term could ever express truth or the nature of them.

 

While one is choosing to 'hear', one cannot 'listen'. Hearing is comparing to what illusions you already believed and interpreting how it does or doesn't fit your reality model and judging intent/message etc. That prevents the act of listen. One may only listen with a silent mind. When one gains the skill of listen, all words appear as preposterous delusional constructs rather than anything worth entering ones mind.

 

Only in mindful silence does one escape the fog to be capable of observing that one was in the fog of perpetually tainting/labeling/characterizing experiences by evaluating them through a Love/Fear association judgement system.

Taomaster, you are the master of your own delusions and nothing more or less, as is every other consciousness while it's having thoughts. All your thoughts and words are delusion, all my thoughts and words are delusion, because words and thoughts are human construct delusions as tools to attempt to categorize and evaluate the inexpressible and unfathomable oneness. If you are believing you are ahead of anyone else at knowing anything, you are merely living in a further removed from reality (oneness) layer of delusion.

 

If one wishes to liberate mind, gain awareness of why one can't know any-thing of Tao. Gain awareness of why one would be a fool to claim to know any-thing about Tao. Gain awareness of why the more one grows the belief of knowing Tao, the further from Tao one is.

 

That which can not be held in ones hand is not experienced through continued grasping.

[dawei]

reality is yang and illusion is yin

 

reality comes first then the illusion .

 

this is the basic law that governs all life and all things in the universe . the law of duality .

 

when you fully understand the yang and yin you will fully understand everything there is to understand.

 

I just read 17 pages and finished a buy-one-get-one bottle of Cabernet in the process... Reality and Illusion are not-Two, Not-One; they are simply NOT... or maybe better said as fully negating each other:

- The reality of an illusion (Yang found within Yin)

- The illusion of a reality (Yin found within Yang)

 

Yin and Yang are our combined illusion-reality spectrum.

 

IMHO, if I have to state what comes first, it is illusion/Yin... as no one is there... but it is the process of potential emergence... so-called reality/Yang come next as people claim it as something is there... it is the process of physical arising...

 

Interesting thread. Thanks for this

[Marblehead]

I say once again, Yin and Yang are complimentary. Yang can do nothing without Yin. And so, Yin can do nothing without Yang.

 

Reality is real, and illusion (and delusion) are not real.

 

Reality and illusion have nothing to do with Yin and Yang.

 

Reality is objective; illusion and delusion are subjective.

[Silent Answers]

I say once again, Yin and Yang are complimentary. Yang can do nothing without Yin. And so, Yin can do nothing without Yang.

 

Reality is real, and illusion (and delusion) are not real.

 

Reality and illusion have nothing to do with Yin and Yang.

 

Reality is objective; illusion and delusion are subjective.

I'll agree again .. That's pretty much how I see it. Yin and Yang shaping reality while consciousness plays 20 questions through whatever tools it can use.

 

I don't think yin necessarily means something negative, rather it is the mother from which yang is born, and the one who welcomes yang home at the end of a hard days work.

 

Sometimes they fall in love and reproduce... Sometimes they dance and stir up the cooking pot. We live in their wake trying to make sense of the bubbles.

[TaoMaster]

.

 

 

To model a consciousness as a doll is to misunderstand the nature of reality.

 

((It's an analogy that demonstrates my understanding of consciousness and the nature of reality))

 

 

The consciousness creates it's reality through the thoughts it chooses to have, continuously creating the illusion (or non-illusion if the consciousness has embraced oneness/void as all).

 

There is no invisible hand moving it, it is not needed.

 

((Can you see touch feel smell the life that controls your body or mine of any other life form ? If so please take a picture of it and send me an email . It's invisible . ))

 

 

The duality occurs because the mind creating each reality has only two root thought-types, Love and Fear. (though to express those roots of all thoughts as such is like calling the ocean a damp spot).

 

((I don't have a mind . Please show me what a mind is ? Where it can be found , how much does it weigh? Does it smell or have a distinct color ? ))

 

((The mind is a concept at best. ))

 

There is no guiding hand, or guiding force that is external to each individual consciousness creating it's reality by choosing to think whatever it may believe reality to be.

 

((True it's not individual , it guides all life forms . There are no individual souls . Only 1 for all life forms . It controls me and you and everyone else .))

 

Duality is inherent in the reality of all consciousness while that consciousness is choosing to have thoughts of reality, as all thought has only 2 sources of origin, Love or Fear. (many labels for these terms across various cultures, no textual term could ever express truth or the nature of them.

 

((Love and fear are not true opposites. ))

 

((It's love and hate ))

 

And

 

((Confidence and fear ))

 

((Love and confidence come first and hate and fear come after.))

 

((Love and confidence are yang . Hate and fear yin .))

 

While one is choosing to 'hear', one cannot 'listen'. Hearing is comparing to what illusions you already believed and interpreting how it does or doesn't fit your reality model and judging intent/message etc. That prevents the act of listen. One may only listen with a silent mind. When one gains the skill of listen, all words appear as preposterous delusional constructs rather than anything worth entering ones mind.

 

Only in mindful silence does one escape the fog to be capable of observing that one was in the fog of perpetually tainting/labeling/characterizing experiences by evaluating them through a Love/Fear association judgement system.

 

Taomaster, you are the master of your own delusions and nothing more or less, as is every other consciousness while it's having thoughts.

 

((And you are on my ignore list buddy ( laughing ) ))

 

 

All your thoughts and words are delusion,

 

((I view yours the same way . Interesting . Thank you for your comments ( smile ) ))

 

 

Edited September 20, 2014 by TaoMaster

[Bud Jetsun]

I say once again, Yin and Yang are complimentary. Yang can do nothing without Yin. And so, Yin can do nothing without Yang.

 

Reality is real, and illusion (and delusion) are not real.

 

Reality and illusion have nothing to do with Yin and Yang.

 

Reality is objective; illusion and delusion are subjective.

 

To whom is it objective? Which one is not just some patchwork of things limited by the extreme perception limitations of a human being and whatever tools they make to help them observe relationships between and assign labels to describe whatever model happens to currently be popular among groups of the close minded delusionary-model-defenders. This is never a thing to get confused with reality, which can only exist in the perception of a consciousness. Depending on the consciousness, the reality model varies, no two can match, or they would be the same consciousness.

[Marblehead]

Ha! That was difficult for me to read and grasp what you were saying. I had to read it twice.

To whom is it objective?

Good question. For many, reality sucks and therefore they use alcohol and drugs to escape it. Others just run away or deny it.

Reality is objective to those who are willing to accept its existence. Don't like it? The first question to be asked, I think, is, "Can I change it?" And then, before any further thought or action one should ask, "Will I be more at peace if I try to change it?"

 

I agree that being closed-minded is self defeating. It places limits on what we are willing to do or consider.

 

But actually, (objective) reality never varies; it is our perception that varies.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Marblehead

[Captain Mar-Vell]

Whatever we want it to be.

 

We decide.

 

What is real, and what illusion.

 

These are just concepts, ie labels which we choose to attach to phenomena.

 

I got the Moody Blues right here.

 

...

 

 

[Marblehead]

Whatever we want it to be.

Exactly. But this may be objective, subjective, or a combination of the two. Most of us, I think, live in a world that is a combination of the two. I know I do.

 

And yes, the Moody Blues did a great job with that concept.