Is talking about spirituality and practices useful?

[BaguaKicksAss]

This contemplation came up lately for me. I lead a weekly magic discussion group. Recently I got to thinking that it isn't doing anything, and the time would be better spent in some group practice. However other members like the community aspect of it (for some reason others find it difficult to find others of like mind).

 

Sure we discuss magic, sort of, but like here, most of it is just debate lol. I'm not even sure if the newer to the path folks learn much since all of us experienced folks tend to disagree on each topic LOL.

 

Now I have found much use in sitting down one on one with another fellow practitioner and going over stuff and making sure we are both still on our paths... but this group thing, I'm not so sure about.

 

I guess we are there as a support group for folks going through rough times, and an advice group for newbies (in both cases who want 5 differing opinions).... but some of the meetups end up being lets brag about what level we are at or how advanced we are (I'm going to start another thread about my "I crossed the abyss rant").

 

So what is the usefulness of discussing such things? Perhaps I'm just jaded....

 

Here for example, I keep coming because the conversation is interesting, and there are a whole pile of things I know absolutely nothing about . I guess we can't practice and meditate all day everyday. Also said meetups we do in town sure beat other social activities that people for some odd reason seem to enjoy...

[silent thunder]

Can relate to this.

 

Rather than listen and respond with intent and care... many folks like to just string word salad together while in front of others to puff themselves up, saying nothing of impact or worth... that's when I stop showing up.

[GrandmasterP]

TTB is fun and can also irk but it's never dull.

Must be hard and mostly thankless working for this forum though and I take my hat off to those of you who do so.

Especially you BKA and you deserve your well earned break from that slog.

I'm pretty flippant on here because in my day job I have to be super-serious so it's a nice change to be able to josh on here.

No way can one be flippant or offhand with paying students and my employers would take a pretty dim view if, at work; I began to come out with some of the stuff that TTB tolerates.

In that sense there's a catharsis.

You know BKA that when you have students you get to hear and experience the full gamut of the human condition.

It's like we are a sounding board for problems sometimes and they do expect us to have some input as far as constructive suggestions go.

Some want us to somehow take over responsibility for their lives and "make it all better".

Those tend to be the ones who leave disappointed and maybe disgruntled.

Then you get the 'well poisoners" , those odd and thankfully rare students who seem to take pleasure and gain energy by undermining everyone and everything in class.

Those are sure fun!

It's tough being a teacher but worth it, usually.

All conversations and interactions in cultivation class are, to some extent 'spiritual'.

Why else would we all be there?

You're doing a good job BKA and one you were meant to be doing.

If you weren't then you'd not be getting the results that you are getting or the positive feedback that comes your way.

Thank You.

 

Edited July 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Protector]

The answer is how often you see me on the site

[Nungali]

Its a bit like walking a long the beach in winter ... wet, cold, windy .... occasionally you pick up something unknown and/or interesting.

 

In the past ... I found them rather boring - " And I was so mad, he turned around and so I breathed fire at him ... and I could actually see the flames coming out of my mouth! <aside to GF> ... you saw it too didnt you?"

 

"Well ... I ... um, er .... "

 

"yeah, she saw it ! Anyway, the guy ended up with burns ... actual burns on his back ! "

 

 

At the moment I wouldnt mind a good version of such a group, the closest I got to here (recently) was a ' deep thought group' ... deep ?

 

It seems full of new age speculators, conspiracy 'theorist' , etc. I did something there one night and they were instantly out of their depth. Another one excitedly informed me they were doing a night on the Australian 'Egyptian' hieroglyphic rock carvings. When I casually told him they were fake he was outraged. I said I could prove that and had the documents, a paper and references to show him he got defensive. His GF, the person who sponsors and hosts the group, suggested he should look at that first, he agreed and said he would email.

 

Nothing. .... The talk went ahead. I didnt attend, and havent been back.

 

I'm probably delusional in thinking there would be group I could relate to ?

 

Your one might be interesting ... if we .... elimanated , those that were annoying.

 

[Daeluin]

All too often when I see a new project beginning, I see people getting stuck in the talking and planning stage. They can go in circles over and over again, and don't seem to realize they aren't making progress towards the manifesting stage of the project.

 

I think getting the plan right is very important. Get it locked down and then get out of your head and do the work. I find this in the taoist classics as well. Understand the process fully, then do the work fully:

 

The worldly people do not know the difference between the Great and the Small Reverted Elixir. They merely talk about the Way of the Golden Elixir and vainly attempt to obtain "one word or half a sentence" from a master; in this way they hope that their practice comes to achievement. Is this not entirely foolish?

 

As for the external ways of the side gates, they are not even worthy of discussion. But if one really wants to discuss what those who follow them actually obtain, some know about refining themselves, but know nothing about collecting the Medicine; others know about collecting the Medicine, but know nothing about arranging the furnace and setting up the tripod; others know about arranging the furnace and setting up the tripod, but know nothing about the method of harmonization; and others only know about the Small Reverted Elixir, but know nothing about the Great Reverted Elixir. All of them stop halfway.

 

Alas! At the beginning there is "doing," at the end there is "nondoing." If you know the beginning but do not know the end, you can hardly wish to attain the Great Tao.

 

Students who intend to "go back to the beginning and pursue the end" should not have even the slightest trace of doubt or confusion. Only then can they be able to do it.

 

Liu Yiming Cultivating the Tao, tl Pregadio

Great and Small Reverted Elixir

 

If a meeting has a goal and a structure / plan by which to achieve the goal, then it may conclude with accomplishment. If a meeting is more of an open discussion circle, then it is about flowing where the members lead it. If the members are sincere and stay on topic and understand how to avoid unimportant tangents, the discussion may flow to the root and accomplish much. If some of the members just want to talk back and forth without a destination, then it simply follows the cycle of conditioning without arriving anywhere in particular. Often people just want to talk about things and be social, and aren't interested in changing their life situation.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well the in person meetup is much easier than TTBs... no one can create sock puppets... if someone starts raising their voice a bit too much I just turn on bitch mode and that ends that (and everyone else gets a really good laugh for the evening apparently lol), and it's a small enough group we all know each other pretty well... sometimes from a decade or 2 or 3 back!

[idiot_stimpy]

No use sharing with someone who is not open about the subject.

 

It can be seen with bible bashers who do more damage than good for their cause.

[z00se]

I think it's mainly just entertaining. I have certainly learnt things earlier on but most of what i learnt i knew already, it was just by typing it out i figured out my own answer, often before even pressing the post button. Some people have had very interesting points of view that kinda opened me up to different things. Been some good links to look at too.

 

I remember i went to a group thing once (there were quiet a few ppl, about 40 or so) and the main leader was only semi switched on. He was on a path but just a follower, and the master wasn't there. I feel any leader of this type of thing should be have awakened themselves. There were several such schools all run by the same master and where the master never really attended and they just watched him on a video tape.

 

Lots of people do argue. More time practice would be much better but not entertaining, but it would bring the group together more.

 

Often i find alot of the ppl that attend to these groups feel they are a bit strange. They feel they are so intune with everything and easily lead like sheep and just agree with the leader without question. They're not grounded or have any light of their own.

The most spiritually awake people i know don't practice meditation at all they just ARE awake, they don't realise it though, probably because they don't know what it's like to be spiritually asleep!

 

I do have a plan to do energy experiments with precise scientific testings of different types of variables and to collaborate with others in each specific experiment to find if people experience the energy in the same way. This would be useful, perhaps? No idea, but science makes findings then builds on those findings to make use out of them.

[z00se]

Its a bit like walking a long the beach in winter ... wet, cold, windy .... occasionally you pick up something unknown and/or interesting.

 

I think this is the same with anything. When you start everything is new, but later on you have to sift through so much dirt for a single diamond

[BaguaKicksAss]

Actually there is one use for discussion groups (and forums). Out of each group, I tend to end up with 1-2 friends who I end up knowing for a good long time, and we get quite a bit of productive work done together. Thinking about it, the other members do end up swapping contact info with each other as well. Always nice to know people on the same path.

 

I think our meetups are sort of like magic tech support lol.

 

Awakened eh? That's sort of rare; though I have pretty high standards for such things. Unless you just mean obviously on the path and gotten a little bit of somewhere and practice a couple of times per week... that is much more common. I view awakened more like come into their power, take their path as primary importance in their life, gotten quite a bit of somewhere, and gotten past a lot of their crap. Though thinking about it... the lot of us probably feel extremely awakened to someone brand new on the path .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Now with actual students, I find I learn a LOT, as we tend to explore a lot together, and they ask deep questions. But with the meetup group, not so much. Apparently I have to liven it up somehow.

 

We do have our very own troll though, we still love him, but he is most definitely a troll lol. He's to popular to just kick him out.

[ThisLife]

I found the title of this thread, "Is Talking About Spirituality and Practices Useful ?", very thought-provoking. It was also extremely interesting reading through various people's ideas about the utility, or otherwise, of such conversations.

 

Personally, I have never been a teacher of any spiritual practice, and though for many years I have been a committed 'seeker',... I've always been a reluctant student. Something in my nature just isn't much attracted to the idea of sitting at a guru's feet.

 

Nevertheless, I have studied fairly rigorously books written by a number of teachers whose ideas resonated with my own nature for whatever reasons. One of these was Richard Sylvester, a Non-Duality teacher currently living in Kent, England. Apparently he experienced full Awakening a number of years ago and afterwards wrote a book called "I Hope You Die Soon". In one section of it he describes the first thoughts that came to him after this experience. I was so taken with them that I wrote them down and filed them away for my future ease of access. Since they seemed to me to have a particular relevance to the question raised in this thread, I thought I would throw them in on the off-chance that they strike a chord with someone here :

 

*

 

*

 

"One thing that was immediately seen is the nature of all the apparent spiritual experiences that arose during the years of searching and following false paths and gurus. Suddenly they are seen for what they really are, emotional and psychological experiences happening to an unreal person and no more significant than putting on a shoe or having a cup of coffee.

 

Spiritual experiences are not difficult to evoke. Meditate intensively, chant for long periods, take certain drugs, go without food or sleep, put yourself in extreme situations. That will probably do it. I had done all of these things and there had been many spiritual experiences. I had chanted for hours and meditated to the beating of mighty Tibetan gongs. I had seen the guru, sitting on a dais in impressive robes, dissolve into golden light before my eyes. Personal identity had refined and dissolved into transcendental bliss. The universe had breathed me as my awareness expanded to fill everything.

 

So what ?

 

There had always been someone there, having the spiritual experience. A person, no matter how refined, had always been present. These events had all happened to ‘me’. None of them had anything more or less to do with liberation than stroking a cat."

 

*

Edited July 21, 2014 by ThisLife

[doc benway]

"Is talking about spirituality and practices useful?"

 

I've found it very useful when talking to folks who are on the same path and comparing practice related experiences and views. I have one close friend in particular with whom I've had countless discussions. They've definitely helped me to refine my view both through challenges and reinforcement. Some members here have helped me either by helping me to see weaknesses in my view or behavior or by pointing out something I hadn't seen or thought of.

 

I've also found it useful when talking to a teacher or someone more experienced or knowledgeable than I am.

 

I'd even like to think that I've occasionally said or posted something that other folks have found useful.

 

Unfortunately however, so often group discussions (especially anonymous ones) deteriorate into each of us displaying our normal ego driven behavior trying to make ourselves feel good or others feel bad, etc... etc...

 

So for me, the value is usually in one on one discussions with very select individuals.

[Stosh]

The answer is most likely no , if one expects things to work as they are imagined ,,

thats to say , person A types some words ,

and then person B learns a valuable lesson that translates into thier life in some meaningfully altered way.

 

The idea people garner at face value , has a relatively small effect on the way they live.

Folks generally accept that which they already believe , and reject which they dont have a propensity to believe.

 

I took a little questionaire this weekend to see what faith would be presented as a good match,, it told me an answer and I promptly took no more interest in it since I didnt already agree.

Im sure folks will see this Ive written and attest that "it aint so" for them , but I have yet to be convinced that this principle is flawed statistically (with exceptions allowed to prove the rule ).

[doc benway]

It now occurs to me that such discussions can be useful IF we are able to truly listen with an open mind and an open heart, with strong intention of personal change.

[manitou]

Personally, I know that the talking we've done on this forum - for me, in the past years - has changed my thinking. I am not the same person I was when I first found TTB's some years ago.

 

I think, as to whether it's valuable or not, that that will vary depending on the open-mindedness of the folks involved. If people's ego's are largely in control - if the self-realization has not been attained - then it's often going to be a match of egos trying to demonstrate their knowledge - and not really listen to what someone else is saying.

 

If it's just an ego game that is being reinforced from week to week, then I think the group discussions can almost be counter-productive. But if the focus is placed on the inner growth of the individuals, then this can be quite valuable.

 

These internet forums are a very good place to see who has done inner cultivation and who has not. Even if we do not know each other's actual names - we get to know each other soul to soul. And those that hide behind their egos are easy to spot as well - their egos stick out like sore thumbs and the pattern is repeated thread upon thread.

[Songtsan]

Useful!

 

Refresh memory

Counteract misinformation

Open up views for constructive destruction and rebuilding

Get to the bottom line

Refresh practice

Delimit viewscapes

Destroy egotistic holdups

And more

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hmmmmm

 

Do any of you wise folks have suggestions for how I can switch the meetups/discussions around? It is in a coffee shop, so meditations to start each meeting might be a bit difficult...

 

We do have one troll who tries to make every single meeting about him, but also there are always 2 different conversations going during every meet... (I can't just kick him out, he's popular and we learned last week that he's been feeling suicidal lately; 2nd Saturn return maybe, or too much internal crap more likely). So distract the troll methods would be handy too!

Edited July 21, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

Now this forum is a bit more fun than meetup for me because on here there are many people far far further on the path than me, and also twice the experience/years as me . At the meetup, I am by far the most experienced, and the magic tech support go to...

[3bob]

(to first post)

 

who knows, life (can) turn on a dime...

Edited July 21, 2014 by 3bob

[BaguaKicksAss]

I found the title of this thread, "Is Talking About Spirituality and Practices Useful ?", very thought-provoking. It was also extremely interesting reading through various people's ideas about the utility, or otherwise, of such conversations.

 

Personally, I have never been a teacher of any spiritual practice, and though for many years I have been a committed 'seeker',... I've always been a reluctant student. Something in my nature just isn't much attracted to the idea of sitting at a guru's feet.

 

Nevertheless, I have studied fairly rigorously books written by a number of teachers whose ideas resonated with my own nature for whatever reasons. One of these was Richard Sylvester, a Non-Duality teacher currently living in Kent, England. Apparently he experienced full Awakening a number of years ago and afterwards wrote a book called "I Hope You Die Soon". In one section of it he describes the first thoughts that came to him after this experience. I was so taken with them that I wrote them down and filed them away for my future ease of access. Since they seemed to me to have a particular relevance to the question raised in this thread, I thought I would throw them in on the off-chance that they strike a chord with someone here :

 

*

 

*

 

"One thing that was immediately seen is the nature of all the apparent spiritual experiences that arose during the years of searching and following false paths and gurus. Suddenly they are seen for what they really are, emotional and psychological experiences happening to an unreal person and no more significant than putting on a shoe or having a cup of coffee.

 

Spiritual experiences are not difficult to evoke. Meditate intensively, chant for long periods, take certain drugs, go without food or sleep, put yourself in extreme situations. That will probably do it. I had done all of these things and there had been many spiritual experiences. I had chanted for hours and meditated to the beating of mighty Tibetan gongs. I had seen the guru, sitting on a dais in impressive robes, dissolve into golden light before my eyes. Personal identity had refined and dissolved into transcendental bliss. The universe had breathed me as my awareness expanded to fill everything.

 

So what ?

 

There had always been someone there, having the spiritual experience. A person, no matter how refined, had always been present. These events had all happened to ‘me’. None of them had anything more or less to do with liberation than stroking a cat."

 

*

 

Best book title ever!

[Tung]

if some one is listening...

[Stosh]

Why distract the troll ?

But first , if he is popular , then the 'troll' epithet might be undermined .

Two its typical taoist advice ,or so I hear, for one to avoid center stage, and he is willing to take it.

Three sometimes,, no make it very often, , you need a person with a bit

of self promotional tendencies to get a thing going and maintain it thataway.

So dont worry about it , trying to 'fix' everything all the time is a pain in the arse.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Why distract the troll ?

But first , if he is popular , then the 'troll' epithet might be undermined .

Two its typical taoist advice ,or so I hear, for one to avoid center stage, and he is willing to take it.

Three sometimes,, no make it very often, , you need a person with a bit

of self promotional tendencies to get a thing going and maintain it thataway.

So dont worry about it , trying to 'fix' everything all the time is a pain in the arse.

 

Cause having every single meeting being about how we should all convert to Islam and how he has crossed the abyss and is an adept, gets really old really fast lol.

 

But you do have a point, perhaps I should bring a good book .

 

Fortunately only 1 member is thinking of not attending because of him... (he's been kicked out of 2 previous meetup groups!)

 

Hmmm, perhaps I should bring a book for *him* to read .