Zhan Zhuang "Under the Hood"

[Sebastian]

Hey Buddies,

 

Help me figure out the chemistry that goes on during the Zhang Zuang holding the ball excercice (or standing like a tree).

 

More specifically, I'd like to get an understanding for the energies that we are generating, transforming and feeling.

 

One obvious effect is that the Dan-Tian or lower abdomen get warmer.

 

Member "Zoom" wrote a while back that the heat actually came from qi being converted into Jing, but I always thought that it was the reverse.

 

Additionally, another member here was raving about Zhang Zuang because it supposedly generated a particular quality of qi that he referred to as "YANG Qi" as opposed to the "yin qi" used in weigong.

 

About that, I don't think it's the Yang Qi that Nan Huai Chin is referring to in his books right ? Because Nan's Yang Qi is Kundalini like, it's the fire qi that opens the ren and the du meridians.

 

 

Thanks,

Sebby

Edited July 22, 2014 by Sebastian

[Seeker of Wisdom]

The guy you want to talk to is Protector.

[Sebastian]

The guy you want to talk to is Protector.

 

Cool, bring him in.....

 

Let me Summon Protector !!

[Sebastian]

Adding my thoughts regarding Yang Qi from a private discussion.

 

["I view Yang Qi as the stronger qi that opens the 8 meridians when the DanTian is full, as opposed to the yin qi we circulate in the arms and the legs during weigong.

 

I think this Yang Qi could be referred as a lesser Kundalini energy.

 

Kundalini to me is the primordial Yuan Qi coming up."]

Edited July 23, 2014 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

Just to clarify, the question still stands though. What quality of qi are we working on in Zhan Zuang (yin qi, yang qi, other..) , and what's the alchemical process taking place. I have a few pieces so far but I'm still not clear. Thanks

[CloudHands]

Hey Buddies,

 

Help me figure out the chemistry that goes on during the Zhang Zuang holding the ball excercice (or standing like a tree).

 

More specifically, I'd like to get an understanding for the energies that we are generating, transforming and feeling.

 

One obvious effect is that the Dan-Tian or lower abdomen get warmer.

 

Member "Zoom" wrote a while back that the heat actually came from qi being converted into Jing, but I always thought that it was the reverse.

 

Additionally, another member here was raving about Zhang Zuang because it supposedly generated a particular quality of qi that he referred to as "YANG Qi" as opposed to the "yin qi" used in weigong.

 

About that, I don't think it's the Yang Qi that Nan Huai Chin is referring to in his books right ? Because Nan's Yang Qi is Kundalini like, it's the fire qi that opens the ren and the du meridians.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Sebby

 

I think your guesses are correct. The more I spend time on this forum the more I think that the better way to answer this kind of questions is to let the time to your diligent practice show you how it's like.

There is no shortcuts, so why bother ? I agree sometimes my own curiosity can be very strong

 

Otherwise another interesting option with horse stance is to discover the part of your body you have to breath more.

[Aetherous]

About that, I don't think it's the Yang Qi that Nan Huai Chin is referring to in his books right ? Because Nan's Yang Qi is Kundalini like, it's the fire qi that opens the ren and the du meridians.

 

Yes, it is that. The lower dantian is "true fire within the water element" in Taoist alchemical terms...when that energy is full, you could say, then it circulates through the extra vessels. You will feel it ascending the back naturally, like steam rising.

 

The hand posture while "holding the ball" activates the middle dantian, which is "true water within the fire element".

 

So basically, there's a lot of stuff going on under the hood.

[Green Tiger]

I was trying to 'look under the hood' with another standing posture, Stand in the Stream.

 

 

It's interesting how different postures seem to access and activate different parts of the body. When I'm standing in this posture lately, it feels like my rooted leg is being sucked into the ground and there seems to be a tremendous amount of energy coming up through the leg, into my hips and spine.

 

I'm sure there's some sort of meridian activation going on, but I don't know enough about the meridians to know which ones or why this particular posture might activate them.

[soaring crane]

The posture GT posted is a combination of yin water and yin fire. Make of it what you will...

[Sebastian]

Yes, it is that. The lower dantian is "true fire within the water element" in Taoist alchemical terms...when that energy is full, you could say, then it circulates through the extra vessels. You will feel it ascending the back naturally, like steam rising.

 

The hand posture while "holding the ball" activates the middle dantian, which is "true water within the fire element".

 

So basically, there's a lot of stuff going on under the hood.

 

Interesting, there is a visualization I do during Zhang Zuang where water from the heart is dripping into the fire of the Dan-Tian.

 

I guess it becomes alchemical when the Yin in the Dan-Tian turns to Yang, and the Yang in the Heart in turns to Yin.

 

Or you could say, when water turns to fire in the dantian, and fire turns to water in the heart.

 

So if water is Jing then perhaps this is what's going on "under the hood".

 

* Dantian converts Jing to Qi and the Qi rises up to the Middle DanTian where it condenses into water and drops again

[Sebastian]

This exercise is so powerful, local raccoons get up at 3:00 am in Taiwan to do it.

 

Snapped this pic earlier today.

 

 

Raccoon doing holding the ball exercise and coverting Jing to Qi.

[soaring crane]

Raccoon doing holding the ball exercise and coverting Jing to Qi.

 

ha!

[Sebastian]

Hey Guys,

 

So I put everything in visual form. Feedback welcome.

 

1) Raccoon comes down from Mountain.

 

 

 

 

2) Alchemy starts taking place

 

 

 

3) The hidden energies start interacting

 

 

 

4) Jing and Qi are produced in lower Dan-Tian, and this process is strengthened by middle Dantian.

 

 

4) Yang Qi is produced when the DanTian is full and opens 8 meridians.

 

 

 

PS: Discussion assumes that raccoons share same energy body as humans, and have energy centers in similar places. No raccoons were hurt in this post.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Sebastian

[Daeluin]

Hey, if monkeys can do it... I imagine raccoons would like being equal to heaven as well.

[Sebastian]

Hey, if monkeys can do it... I imagine raccoons would like being equal to heaven as well.

 

Hey Daeliun, let's not compare apples and oranges here.... If you re-read this thread closely, you will notice that nothing was said about monkeys.

 

In fact, monkeys and raccoons share different energy systems. Opening chakras for example requires opening the petals of a lotus for humans, eating the actual petals for raccoons, but for monkeys it is really more like peeling bananas.

 

Anyways, I could elaborate more on this, but I don't have enough qi left in my Dan-Tian to start a new thread...

 

Thanks,

Sebby

Edited July 25, 2014 by Sebastian

[soaring crane]

Haha epic thread

 

I think there's more than one possible outcome. A lot depends on your mental state while standing, and subtle physical variations.

 

Do you stand like a tree, for example, or like a palace guard?

[Vitalii]

Just to clarify, the question still stands though. What quality of qi are we working on in Zhan Zuang (yin qi, yang qi, other..) , and what's the alchemical process taking place. I have a few pieces so far but I'm still not clear. Thanks

 

I answered your questions here - http://thetaobums.com/topic/31411-if-you-practice-zhan-zhuang-for-how-long-do-you-stand/#entry565731

[Sebastian]

Do you stand like a tree, for example, or like a palace guard?

 

To be honest, at first I was doing this as some dude trying to hold a position and clocking time... lol.

 

Nowadays I try to go into the emptiness more. I try to forget that there's a body doing qigong or that I'm doing anything at all. Everything falls into the background or the emptiness.

 

I also used to jump right in and start clocking time, but these days I take between 20 and 40 minutes to fully relax before engaging in this position.

 

I start imagining that my body disappears from top to bottom, every part, and I do this 3 times. Then I might breathe in the colors of the rainbow and breathe out black smoke... Usually I reach a point where the body feels really light, and the arms spread away from the body on the in-breath. That's when I jump in and hold the ball.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

I answered your questions here - http://thetaobums.com/topic/31411-if-you-practice-zhan-zhuang-for-how-long-do-you-stand/#entry565731

 

What exactly do mean that Zhang Zuang is not alchemical ? You mean that there's no directing of the qi with the mind, is that how you define alchemy ?

[Vitalii]

What exactly do mean that Zhang Zuang is not alchemical ? You mean that there's no directing of the qi with the mind, is that how you define alchemy ?

 

Alchemy methods is work with the original Qi and original spirit.

You asked "What quality of qi are we working on in Zhan Zhuang (yin qi, yang qi, other..)". It means that you do not know some very important aspects of Zhan Zhuang. If you can not feel different quality of ordinary qi It means that you can not feel original Qi. If you can not feel original Qi it is not alchemy. When you practice Zhang Zhuang you work with usual energy and ordinary consciousness.

 

The fundamental difference between Neidan and Qigong is that the usual methods of Qigong can work with usual kinds of energy, heal the body, balance the circulation of energy and achieve control over your feelings and emotions, whereas Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work not only with usual energy and ordinary consciousness, but with the original energy and original spirit (the divine nature), which significantly improves the efficiency of all energy practices for the development of body and mind.

[soaring crane]

To be honest, at first I was doing this as some dude trying to hold a position and clocking time... lol.

 

Nowadays I try to go into the emptiness more. I try to forget that there's a body doing qigong or that I'm doing anything at all. Everything falls into the background or the emptiness.

 

you might get more out of it if you return to being the dude trying to hold a posture and clocking time.

 

Somethjing to experiment with: Try staying alert in your sessions. Don't go empty, don't close the eyes, don't shut out the real world.

 

'Standing like a tree' means standing with tremendous awareness of your surroundings. What, you think trees aren't aware?

 

'Standing like a tree' also means remaining active. What, you think trees are passive?

 

This is why 'standing like a palace guard' comes closer to the state we look for. When you stand this way, eyes open, gazing over the horizon, expectantly watching for smoke rising from the hills in the distance, or listening for sound of an approaching enemy, while remaining absolutely motionless, you build up all that power internally without expending it. It's jing.

[Sebastian]

Thanks. The way I view it is that the practitioner holds a posture, relaxes, and lets the qi do all the work. The practitioner isn't doing anything. Movement comes from the stillness. The qi is intelligent and will work its magic. If you tinkered with it in anyway I'd be afraid it lost its effect, or would be reduced. So it's very much like Michael Lomax's standing practice, expect the arms are down in that one.

I basically remove myself from the equation and let the qi do whatever it needs to do. But staying highly aware is definitely better than zoning out, as you point out. There's a fine line and I'm no expert at all, so I may be doing it with the wrong mindset. Heck, I visualize myself as a raccoon sometimes, I don't think that's authentic Taoism.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

Alchemy methods is work with the original Qi and original spirit.

You asked "What quality of qi are we working on in Zhan Zhuang (yin qi, yang qi, other..)". It means that you do not know some very important aspects of Zhan Zhuang. If you can not feel different quality of ordinary qi It means that you can not feel original Qi. If you can not feel original Qi it is not alchemy. When you practice Zhang Zhuang you work with usual energy and ordinary consciousness.

 

Great explanations, although I'm still not clear on a few things. In the thread you started about zhan zuang practice times you wrote:

 

If you practice correctly then you will absorb Qi of Heaven (yang qi) and Qi of Earth (yin qi).

 

I can feel the different quality of these two energies. However, here, you the speak of the "Original Qi" and "Original Spirit" used in Neidan, which ones are they exactly (shen and jing ?). I probably don't have experience with these, but I'd like to understand better. Perhaps you're saying I'm only using qi in my Zhang Zuang practice ?

[Vitalii]

Great explanations, although I'm still not clear on a few things. In the thread you started about zhan zuang practice times you wrote:

 

If you practice correctly then you will absorb Qi of Heaven (yang qi) and Qi of Earth (yin qi).

 

I can feel the different quality of these two energies. However, here, you the speak of the "Original Qi" and "Original Spirit" used in Neidan, which ones are they exactly (shen and jing ?). I probably don't have experience with these, but I'd like to understand better. Perhaps you're saying I'm only using qi in my Zhang Zuang practice ?

 

Inner Alchemy methods allow you to work with original treasures Yuan Jing (Original Jing), Yuan Qi (Original Qi) and Yuan Shen (Original Spirit), and the True (Zhen) Qi of Heaven and Earth.

Also you need to know that True (Zhen) Qi of Heaven and Earth and usual Qi of Heaven and Earth are not the same.

 

I want to say that your Zhang Zhuang practice is not alchemy

Edited July 26, 2014 by Vitalii

[Sebastian]

Gotcha, so Zhang Zuang at my level is still working with Jing, Chi and Shen but not their original essences, which are only at play in higher level Neidan training. Thanks