What's REALLY possible from Magic/Magik/Magick? What have you achieved?

[Satya]

This is a pretty unclear post: ESP, Astral travel and Out of Body Experiences are not "magic". These are abilities that can be learned and are taught in many traditions. Typically these are not associated with practices of magic though practitioners of magic may learn them.

 

Magic may be defined as:

Bending the elements to your will.

 

 

For many of us here it is considered a detour and extremely dangerous - primarily because it is so easy to grab a hold of a load of karma with it even though the intent in using and learning it was quite positive. At a certain point there is no sanctity in ignorance.

Meddling creates karma at a far greater level than an act of angry obstruction. One is done "consciously" while the other may be done out of anger or jealousy - "conscious hoaxing and cursing" is in a whole other ball game of karma.

 

When one learns to leave ones body, to use intuition, to work with ones energy channels or with other spirits - this is typically not considered magic.

 

Much of the exchange here in The Tao Bums (TTBs) is tempered because we have quite a few practitioners of magic here - it is why quite a bit of information is not shared. Most of the highest levels of eastern teaching are kept secret specifically to keep it out of the hands of practitioners of magic and it is one of the reasons the magic practitioners are here in these forums - good info makes its way here from time to time that can be very helpful to any form of a magician.

 

I have never seen this topic brought up here or spoken of in this way but I certainly cannot be the first to feel this way or to withhold information because of it.

 

Given that you posted the way you did it seemed appropriate to mention this because at least for some of us there are many paths to take if you are on the road to enlightenment - magic is definitely considered by many of us to be a detour - and only a detour at best.

 

I also posted it here because it would be great to air this out in a forum post that has many with another viewpoint.

 

I will end this with a small note - we have a very fine broom mounted on our wall here at home and my wife is a witch - so do not think I am so rigid on this as one might assume.

 

Yes, I agree, and am familiar with magic being seen as a detour. For anyone coming across this thread who DOESN'T know these things, then, yes, it's a good point to highlight.

 

 

 

 

Magic may be defined as:

Bending the elements to your will.

Yes, this is in line with my very preliminary knowledge.

 

 

And, yes, I SHOULD (though, of course there is no should) have posted that I was interested in hearing about magical practices and mystical experiences, which is what I meant really, and, I know what you mean (I just had a wave of interest in the "paranormal" [what laypersons might refer to as magic] and acted on it). Apart from a little look at sigils when I was 15 I haven't read much or practiced much into magic, for pretty much all of the reasons that you listed above. With all of my other interests etc, being economical with my time, I haven't had the time to dedicate to magic. Also, it hasn't come up in my previous explorations. The authors/practices I've done haven't intertwined with magic 'stuff'. Zen/Jnana/Advaita/Neo-Advaita/Self-Inquiry you could say the biggest magic of all, haha, but, technically, no magic here; Kriya Yoga (initiated Kriyaban), AYP, Bihar Ashtangha/Raja Yoga, no magic in the specific sources I've looked at (I've read into many other areas, but, these are the 2 that I have actually trained/practiced thoroughly). I am aware that there are magical (or at least magical esque) Yogic/Tantric practices, but, the specific authors/avenues/gurus/teachers I've come across have never been involved in them.

 

Even the mystical, not magic per se, stuff I didn't get into. JUST when I was getting deeply into Sadhana I serendipitously came across a lucid dreaming/OBE seminar.

 

I was interested at the time, but, then, quickly, I thought (about 7 years ago now) "this is moving in the opposite direction I'm intending; I want to be more present, less desirous, more content with here/now. If I do these practices and achieve results then what's to stop me from controlling my dreams and eating loads of nice food, flying around all night and having 'relations' with beautiful women" and so on and so fourth.

 

My priorities are still the same. Truth/Enlightenment is my prime spiritual goal, but, especially as there seems to be a LOT more magic talk in this community than other spiritual communities I've come across before, it's sparked an interest in the mystical, etc. I just thought that here would be a good place to ask.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Satya]

And, good reading so far from everyone. Thanks for the info/posts. They're all appreciated.

I didn't post to go into huge depth/discussion at the moment, as, (until end of summer at least) other deadlines don't allow this, but, it's good reading, and, I'll possibly be looking for specific advice on the magical/mystical in the future.

Seth, your post on OBE methods, and, possibly superior ones to Robert Bruce's has sparked my interest (unless I misunderstood).

And, BKA, I'd be interested to hear about your practices too.

[Satya]

I've got the Bardon collection for magic stuff, and R Bruce's latest Astral Dynamics for OBE/LD type stuff.

They seem to be well recommended on here. Would you all agree these are good sources to go by (primarily at first just for interest/info, but, I am interested in OBE stuff now, for, spiritual progress)?

And, I'm yet to check out the biblical reference yet, but, will do.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I strongly recommend finding an in person teacher for this sort of thing, if you can.

 

I have posted a bunch about it on here, (though did deleted some of the posts afterwards since some info is just not for public consumption).

[Nungali]

Satya,

 

Not OBE stuff as such, but since you mentioned you " just had a wave of interest in the "paranormal" "

 

And since I believe such OBE is assisted (at least) by the 'power of the Imagination'

 

I would suggest this for an alternative view on 'paranormal' sourcing wide cross-cultural experience.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daimonic-Reality-Field-Guide-Otherworld/dp/0937663093

 

and a 'magical / historical' overview of 'imagination'

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Philosophers-Secret-Fire-Imagination/dp/1566634857

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...

 

I'm currently doing some Quareia , if you want to learn/try some magic you might find it useful.

[Sebastian]

I'm currently doing some Quareia , if you want to learn/try some magic you might find it useful.

 

How is that going for you buddy ? The curriculum sounds very thorough at first glance, any tie-ins with qigong ? I'd probably never do something like this because occult stuff freaks me out. Yeah, I know I scare easy... lol.

[KenBrace]

There is no such thing as science.

 

Only magic that we think we understand.

 

Uhhh... Sorry but I would have to disagree. Anything that exists, any process or phenoenon that exists, has a physical and scientific explanation behind it. If it doesn't, then it doens't exist. There is no such thing as magic.

[KenBrace]

Just because you can't do it and can't perceive it, doesn't mean it does not exist.

 

If any phenomenon exists, then it has a physical process behind it that is causing it. Everything has a science behind it, regardless of whether or not it is currently understood.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Uhhh... Sorry but I would have to disagree. Anything that exists, any process or phenoenon that exists, has a physical and scientific explanation behind it. If it doesn't, then it doens't exist. There is no such thing as magic.

 

ROFL ROFL ROFL

[BaguaKicksAss]

If any phenomenon exists, then it has a physical process behind it that is causing it. Everything has a science behind it, regardless of whether or not it is currently understood.

 

Exactly, so about time you got past your limited beliefs .

[eye_of_the_storm]

Magic exists for the Magical

[GrandmasterP]

Uhhh... Sorry but I would have to disagree. Anything that exists, any process or phenoenon that exists, has a physical and scientific explanation behind it. If it doesn't, then it doens't exist. There is no such thing as magic.

 

Just you wait until you have kids of your own buddy.

They're magic.

 

[Spotless]

Satya,

 

Not OBE stuff as such, but since you mentioned you " just had a wave of interest in the "paranormal" "

 

And since I believe such OBE is assisted (at least) by the 'power of the Imagination'

 

I would suggest this for an alternative view on 'paranormal' sourcing wide cross-cultural experience.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daimonic-Reality-Field-Guide-Otherworld/dp/0937663093

 

and a 'magical / historical' overview of 'imagination'

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Philosophers-Secret-Fire-Imagination/dp/1566634857

 

If you are looking for a field guide such as these, I would recommend any of the many free and superb books from The Project Gutenberg - look under Theosophical Society.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

As magic becomes more scientific, science becomes more magical.

[allinone]

Uhhh... Sorry but I would have to disagree. Anything that exists, any process or phenoenon that exists, has a physical and scientific explanation behind it. If it doesn't, then it doens't exist. There is no such thing as magic.

 

thats true, if someone flies then it can be measured and explained.

thinking can be measured.

 

also

I just watched James Randi..

 

OR not..

Edited July 27, 2014 by allinone

[Seeker of Wisdom]

How is that going for you buddy ? The curriculum sounds very thorough at first glance, any tie-ins with qigong ? I'd probably never do something like this because occult stuff freaks me out. Yeah, I know I scare easy... lol.

 

Early days, I'm on module 1, which is core skills so no really odd phenomena yet... it's improving my visualisation and intuition though. I've got a journal going in my PPF with my experiences.

 

Hard to say if it ties in with qigong because I'm not that far into it yet and haven't practised qigong, but the basic meditation practices of lesson 1 involve some focus on the third eye and the left, central and right channels which might tie in to qigong. Also lesson 4 says you should do a little daily something like yoga for your body, so you could definitely combine with qigong.

 

I can understand the freaked-out thing, though I don't think the course will have evoking demons and so on for quite a while. Couple days ago I did the lesson 4 ritual during a thunderstorm, felt like some badass wizard lol.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Early days, I'm on module 1, which is core skills so no really odd phenomena yet... it's improving my visualisation and intuition though. I've got a journal going in my PPF with my experiences. Hard to say if it ties in with qigong because I'm not that far into it yet and haven't practised qigong, but the basic meditation practices of lesson 1 involve some focus on the third eye and the left, central and right channels which might tie in to qigong. Also lesson 4 says you should do a little daily something like yoga for your body, so you could definitely combine with qigong. I can understand the freaked-out thing, though I don't think the course will have evoking demons and so on for quite a while. Couple days ago I did the lesson 4 ritual during a thunderstorm, felt like some badass wizard lol.

 

I would sure hope that they don't offer how to evoke to complete random strangers on the internet for free... especially those who haven't been at it for at least 5 years. If so perhaps they should teach them how to summon Darwin first .

[kamilavalamp]

I achieved many things, much i cannot discuss. But I Spent years in astral space and it is strange and dangerous to even the most experienced in the arts, I have traveled to Distant worlds met strange creatures, waged wars across realms, shapeshifted into animal forms and used the aid of animal spirits. I have destroyed demons. Traveled through time, lost my mind and found it again. I've had my astral body trapped by strange people in a pit fighting arena. I have since Stopped Astral Projecting and now focus on perfecting my flesh and blood body through chi gong and my advice to you is if you are going to attempt to do these things, Be Extremely Careful what you look into and involve yourself in because often when you look for hidden knowledge something usually looks back and everything has a price.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I achieved many things, much i cannot discuss. But I Spent years in astral space and it is strange and dangerous to even the most experienced in the arts, I have traveled to Distant worlds met strange creatures, waged wars across realms, shapeshifted into animal forms and used the aid of animal spirits. I have destroyed demons. Traveled through time, lost my mind and found it again. I've had my astral body trapped by strange people in a pit fighting arena. I have since Stopped Astral Projecting and now focus on perfecting my flesh and blood body through chi gong and my advice to you is if you are going to attempt to do these things, Be Extremely Careful what you look into and involve yourself in because often when you look for hidden knowledge something usually looks back and everything has a price.

 

Changing my post to:

 

I'm extremely skeptical and figure there is either a lot of exaggeration, and/or way too much time on the astral going on here.

Edited July 27, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Michael Sternbach]

I achieved many things, much i cannot discuss. But I Spent years in astral space and it is strange and dangerous to even the most experienced in the arts, I have traveled to Distant worlds met strange creatures, waged wars across realms, shapeshifted into animal forms and used the aid of animal spirits. I have destroyed demons. Traveled through time, lost my mind and found it again. I've had my astral body trapped by strange people in a pit fighting arena. I have since Stopped Astral Projecting and now focus on perfecting my flesh and blood body through chi gong and my advice to you is if you are going to attempt to do these things, Be Extremely Careful what you look into and involve yourself in because often when you look for hidden knowledge something usually looks back and everything has a price.

Truly mysterious it sounds. Your path choose well you must. Yoda

Edited July 27, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[kamilavalamp]

It does sound crazy but I did those things. Call me crazy if you want but please don't call it B.S.

[BaguaKicksAss]

It does sound crazy but I did those things. Call me crazy if you want but please don't call it B.S.

 

I don't think you are crazy, I felt you were exaggerating a LOT! I probably should have explained myself a bit though. (I also thought perhaps you may have been one of our many sock puppets, but I see now you are not, by your previous posts).

 

From all I have seen, been taught, found, etc. folks do not end up doing some of that sort of thing until they have at least been at stuff 30-40 years. How long have you been practicing?

 

Though also astral I'm always skeptical of as by its nature it deceives. Also things seem bigger and badder, and what they are not actually, when traveling/working there.

 

The reason I'm doubting your experiences is that it is doubtful that some human (even otherkin) can do what you claim, especially more than once. Now internal demons and etc., is different. While extremely challenging, that is at least doable. Waged wars? You have to admit, that does sound very RPG like . The shapeshifting into animal forms is easy enough on the astral, but perhaps about one in several hundred thousand could pull that off on the physical... Though a couple of those items are possible imo, but combined with things like waging wars.. uhm... How many times have you come back with physical scrapes, bruises, broken bones or etc. that you could not have gotten by thrashing around in your sleep?

 

What I have seen over the years is many many many many people who practice magic, especially those without a teacher, who have false experiences that they fully believe.

[kamilavalamp]

I know that nothing is as it appears in the astral realm becuase things can appear in any form they wish, I admit I do not know how much of what I experienced was real and how much was illusion. I have awoken with scarring and I have been "killed" for lack of a better word multiple times and each time that that happened I was forced back into my body and felt as though my spirit was scattered and hurt, I did have a teacher and he said I was an "anomoly" and did not explain further, He was an expert at hiding important information from me (perhaps for my own safety). I had to get emergency surgery after one projection because I woke up with internal damage. There was only one war I fought in and I scarcely remember any details because I only got there minutes before it was won. I can't read while astral projecting and some of the time I cannot think clearly It's like I act half on thought and half on instint. I may have progressed too quickly by augmenting my abilities and forcing progess with sigil magic.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I know that nothing is as it appears in the astral realm becuase things can appear in any form they wish, I admit I do not know how much of what I experienced was real and how much was illusion. I have awoken with scarring and I have been "killed" for lack of a better word multiple times and each time that that happened I was forced back into my body and felt as though my spirit was scattered and hurt, I did have a teacher and he said I was an "anomoly" and did not explain further, He was an expert at hiding important information from me (perhaps for my own safety). I had to get emergency surgery after one projection because I woke up with internal damage. There was only one war I fought in and I scarcely remember any details because I only got there minutes before it was won. I can't read while astral projecting and some of the time I cannot think clearly It's like I act half on thought and half on instint. I may have progressed too quickly by augmenting my abilities and forcing progess with sigil magic.

 

OK bitch mode *off*, sorry about earlier . My hope though is that those new to the path do not think that what you described is how magic works or what they should be looking for. Generally if a practitioner feels they have had that many experiences within 10 years or less, they should get out of the house more, do some hiking, go to the gym, work some overtime, and just focus on real solid physical activities for a time to ground.

 

Sounds like you had some nasty spirits on the astral messing with you. I recommend not astral traveling if it ends up this way on a regular basis. You said you have not astral traveled in awhile, that is probably good. There are of course protections you can set up before you head out. Also one has to look into their internal realm, what internal unresolved stuff that we have, which allows that to happen to us. Magic perfects ourselves through our own work and helps us get to know inside out the inner realms. This is the primary goal; all else being secondary, and always leading back to the primary focus. (imo/ymmv) What we have happen "externally" is a guide map and picture of our internal world. While I personally beleive there are most definitely external things, beings, experiences and etc., they still mirror who we are, as we are drawn to and attracted by that which is alike, and vice versa.

 

Yeah teachers give info bit by bit since students can't practice very well in the local asylum. Well also if you were experiencing actual damage from your practices, slowing down until you are a bit stronger/know more would have naturally been the best route to go.

 

There are many things which only appear on the astral realm, and don't have a physical nor other planes counterpart. Some feel that the astral is more like a vacation then getting any real work done. Also the astral being so changeable and transient can lead to our imagination getting ahead of ourselves. What I mean is half of what we feel we experience being more ourselves than what is.

 

Regarding forcing progress with sigil magic... while it works, there are things much more potent and much stronger to do such things. (the real stuff isn't in books). Also forcing progress doesn't actually progress a person that far (trust me, I should have an honorary PHD in this department lol), since you progress on one level and in one way, but the rest of you/what is gained through slow progress is also needed. You end up with hollow skill and ability, and run many more risks. Seen this many times. So one can run ahead too quickly though, which can cause a lot of trouble, especially if the person has natural talent. You open up parts of yourself, and parts of other places, which one is not yet ready for. Some people go get into bar fights in their first year of martial arts too...

 

The not being able to read on the astral is really frustrating! Especially when you end up in one of those magical schools *grumble* lol.

 

Though if you came back with physical damage and aren't exaggerating (nothing personal, just that most practitioners who talk about magic online really do exaggerate a lot) then you were perhaps not on the astral plane in particular. You would find Robert Bruce's works interesting.