Apech Posted July 24, 2014 I am not saying that a Daoist shaman wouldn't do this, there are shamans and there are shamans. Many shamans are not shamans the term is very loosely used to describe many a type of person, whether they really are, or of what tradition, is of great debate. The basic tenant remains; life is sacred and a shaman doesn't need to take life to help another, if they do they have turned to the evil path.  Heaven and Earth are impartial They regard myriad things as straw dogs The sages are impartial They regard people as straw dogs  The space between Heaven and Earth Is it not like a bellows? Empty, and yet never exhausted It moves, and produces more  Too many words hasten failure Cannot compare to keeping to the void 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted July 24, 2014 To talk little is natural: Fierce winds do not blow all morning; a downpour of rain does not last all day. Who does this? Heaven and earth. But these are exaggerated, forced effects, and that is why they cannot be sustained. If heaven and earth cannot sustain a forced action, how much less is man able to do? Those who follow the Way become one with the Way. Those who follow goodness Become one with goodness. Those who stray from the Way and goodness become one with failure. If you conform to the Way its powers flow through you. Your actions become those of nature, your ways those of heaven. Open yourself to the Tao and trust your natural responses… Then everything will fall into place. When humans ignore their straw dog nature, venture from the void, and use force to control their environments, not only is it temporary, it is destructive and binding.  Weapons are ominous tools. They are abhorred by all creatures. Anyone who follows the Way shuns them. In peaceful times, the noble ruler honors the left side. At war, he honors the right side. Weapons are ominous tools. They are not the noble ruler's tools. He only uses them when he can't avoid it. Peace and quiet are preferred. Victory should not be praised. Those who praise victory relish manslaughter. Those who relish manslaughter Cannot reach their goals in the world. At times of joy, the left side is honored. At times of grief, the right side is honored. At battle, the second in command stands to the left, And the commander in chief to the right. This means they stand as in funerals. When many people are killed They should be mourned and lamented. Those who are victorious in war Should follow the rites of funerals. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted July 24, 2014 (edited)  Heaven and Earth are impartial They regard myriad things as straw dogs The sages are impartial They regard people as straw dogs  The space between Heaven and Earth Is it not like a bellows? Empty, and yet never exhausted It moves, and produces more  Too many words hasten failure Cannot compare to keeping to the void You mean:  Heaven and Earth are ruthless They see the ten thousand things as part of one whole The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure  The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form; for the ten thousand things all depend upon it. Like this space, the sage can use its formless qualities, for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it  Hold fast to this and remain at one.  There is nothing in chapter 5 that points to the ill treatment of life, it is just saying that Gods and Immortals may exist, but they treat everything the same, so they may seem ruthless in their overseeing of life without preference. Or one could say that the Heavens meaning the forces that come from that direction (Sun etc.) and the Earth are impartial and have no interest in what has evolved in the form of life, so they are ruthless it would seem being both the mother and father of life in their treatment of all life that exists.  "straw Dogs" does not exist in this verse or any other. Edited July 24, 2014 by flowing hands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted July 24, 2014 You mean:  Heaven and Earth are ruthless They see the ten thousand things as part of one whole The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure  The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form; for the ten thousand things all depend upon it. Like this space, the sage can use its formless qualities, for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it  Hold fast to this and remain at one.  There is nothing in chapter 5 that points to the ill treatment of life, it is just saying that Gods and Immortals may exist, but they treat everything the same, so they may seem ruthless in their overseeing of life without preference. Or one could say that the Heavens meaning the forces that come from that direction (Sun etc.) and the Earth are impartial and have no interest in what has evolved in the form of life, so they are ruthless it would seem being both the mother and father of life in their treatment of all life that exists.  "straw Dogs" does not exist in this verse or any other.  I'm not convinced your translation can be found in the original text either but just for the sake of argument perhaps it can ... but even then I don't see a tie in with 'all life is sacred' ... a phrase become meaningless through repetition. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted July 25, 2014 "if everything that ever lived is dead and everything alive is going to die  where does the sacred part come in?"  george carlin 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daeluin Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Being at the top of the food chain it's so easy to look down on everything else. We can do whatever we want and little is able to stop us. And yet it is the myriad life forms on this planet whose lives support our own, and we don't even acknowledge this gift. Â By not daring to be ahead of anything else, I allow freedom for other life forms to grow and change, until one day they too may stand by my side and share their unique perspective with me. Â Take what is necessary, but don't waste life. If we really have interest in creating easy flowing lives of abundance, we should apply our intelligence towards merging with nature, not exploiting it. By nurturing ecosystems we strengthen them. Imagine a society living in trees taller than mountains, that will live thousands of years because they are supported by rich and healthy multidimensional ecosystems. Nurturing ecosystems of this kind requires delayed gratification, but is hardly impossible. Â Righteous, scientific minded, linear, procedural exploitation of nature is the expression of the Metal phase. It isn't balanced, it isn't sustainable. The metal phase is valuable and important, but needs to be balanced with the other phases. Â The modern food industry - and modern culture's oblivious dependence on it - is one of the deepest ways we are separated from how life really works, and the notion of why all life is sacred.These words of mine simply aren't within the scope of comprehension of many of you, and I'm not interested in changing that. Follow where ever your heart is as you will. Edited July 25, 2014 by Daeluin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted July 25, 2014  Heaven and Earth are impartial They regard myriad things as straw dogs The sages are impartial They regard people as straw dogs  The space between Heaven and Earth Is it not like a bellows? Empty, and yet never exhausted It moves, and produces more  Too many words hasten failure Cannot compare to keeping to the void Well if we look at the first lines of the version you have of verse 5, it doesn't make any sense. Back in 1987, when Li Erh Xian Shi said to me he would teach me the right and true version of his words, I remember him saying when he came to this chapter, " where has straw dogs come from, I never wrote this" At the time I had multiple examples of his words by different translators and so through me he read each one and decided which was nearest and nearest to what he mean't in English.  We must also remember that Lao Tzu was a Taoist from the Mao Shan tradition, he spent some years as a young man there, learning from the adepts and hermits that lived on that mountain. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted July 26, 2014 We must also remember that Lao Tzu was a Taoist from the Mao Shan tradition, he spent some years as a young man there, learning from the adepts and hermits that lived on that mountain. Â I think this is something I will want to explore in the Interview with you... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neophyte Posted August 8, 2014 I think this is something I will want to explore in the Interview with you... Â What interview? I'm curious to hear an interview with a shaman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 8, 2014 see here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35097-flowing-hands-interview/ Â Feel free to add questions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
