I Ching: Fu Xi's Ba Gua: questions

[sunshine]

Hi girls and guys,

 

I am currently struggling with understanding some terminology issues regarding classifications relating to acupuncture and the I Ching.

 

Thes first question I stumbled upon today:

 

In Master Alfed Huangs book: The Numerology of the I Ching it is stated that:

__ __

____ a broken line over a solid one was called Lesser Yin, while

 

 

they called a solid line over a broken line

 

_____

__ __ Lesser Yang.

 

I could swear Dr. Tan staed it the opposite and even here http://www.uponreflection.co.uk/iching/iching_bground.htm

 

it is stated the opposite.

 

 

Here again: http://www.geo-principles.com/basic6.htm

 

Master Huang's view is supported!

 

 

Is there actually a mistake in one of these or are there opposing views out there????????

 

 

Next confusion:

 

if one has a look on the Fu Xi Ba Gua

 

http://www.geo-principles.com/basic6.htm (scroll down)

 

(important to note here that in this picture the Guas are read from outside to centre... in other pictures it is the other way round. I learned that the correct way is to read them from bottom to top...)

 

what one sees is that to the left are Dui, Li, Zhen : these share something: they have a bottom Yang line

while the three Gua on the right: Xun, Kan, Gen have a Yin Yao at their bottom.

 

Dr. Tan, an acupuncturist now made from that that the left Gua are actually a Yang family, because we refer to the root, which in their case is a Yang Yao, while those on the right with the Yin Yao as their root are to be considered belonging to a Yin family.

 

David Ticken then has a completely different view of classification of family (he does not use the term though):

He classiefies into:

father--Pure Yang-Qian, Eldest Son-First Yang-Zhen, Second Son-Second-Yang-Li & Third Yang-Youngest Son Gen

same for the Yin Guas and the female side.

 

What one recognizes in this classification is that actually all Gua on the father side are YANG Gua (5 lines, odd numbers denoting Yang) while the others are all Yin Guas.

 

Is there a clear terminology to differentiate the above given views?

 

thankx for your insights in advance

 

 

Harry

[Taomeow]

Harry,

 

nice to see a question actually pertaining to taoist basics!

 

Yes, there's sources that can spell it all out for you and prevent any further confusion regardless of which modern author says what and why. Go for the Ten Wings (commentaries to the I Ching), take it from there. The Shuo Gua and the Ta Chuan in particular are helpful. The best thing they can give you is a clear dynamic picture that is meaningful to you -- once that's in place, some seeming contradictions might dissolve while others will reveal themselves as either honest mistakes or the author's cluelessness or outright BS on a case by case basis.

 

Part of the confusion may be due to the fact that there's two different arrangements of trigrams in a bagua -- the Earlier Heaven or Primal or Xian Tian arrangement, and the Later Heaven or Hou Tian arrangement. The bagua of Xian Tian reveals the structure of wuji -- and, among other things, helps it transpire that, contrary to popular belief, even "nothingness" and "formlessness" of (genuine) taoism is structured, instead of being represented by some indefinite, as Alan Watts put it, "amorphous void." The taoist "void" doesn't stop making sense on the human scale, to the human mind -- even when nothing at all is happening there. In the Xian Tian arrangement, the lowest line always determines the gender, and the sons are, counting the lines from bottom to top, yang-yin-yin (Gen), yang-yin-yang (Li), and yang-yang-yin (Tui), while the other three trigrams with mixed lines are daughters (and of course triple yang is father and triple yin is mother). Not so in the Hou Tian sequence, the Later Heaven we all currently communicate in, the bagua (and tao, and the world) set in motion, where only Gen and Sun haven't changed their original gender. So you would need to find out which arrangement which of the authors is using -- and why. E.g., in feng shui for the living, only the Hou Tian arrangement is used.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Taomeow

[sunshine]

Thankx for the quick response, Taomeow

 

much appreciated. And thankx much for the book recommendation.

 

Let me make the steps in order:

 

I am sure that some people make downright false claims... but can it already start at the beginning?

 

I mean: what is lesser Yin and lesser Yang (just the two line aspect) can not be that difficult, can it? And it for now has nothing to do with Pre- or Postheaven arrangement...

 

if we go back here:

 

http://www.geo-principles.com/basic6.htm

 

There the "trouble starts":

In the diagram is pictured that from the Yang line Greater Yang & LESSER Yin get derived,

while from the Yin-line LESSER Yang and Greater Yin get derived from.

 

NOW: This is the few supported by Master Al Huang supposedly a Master of the I Ching.

 

BUT: as the other link denoted it is put the opposite and Dr. Tan, one of the leading I Ching acupuncturists, does put it the opposite way as well, namely that:

 

while he uses the same pictures as in the link above, he simply says that the one with the Yang line on the bottom and the Yin on top is actually Lesser Yang (so: from the Yang line we derive Greater Yang & Lesser Yang and not Lesser Yin as stated before: again realizing that both authors use the same line setup but name it the opposite").

 

If you were so kind to solve that basic trouble for me it already would be like birthday & Christmas together!

 

 

Now forward to the question of Early & Later Heaven:

 

my topic line is "Fu Xi Ba Gua"... from the material that is in my hands I know that Fu Xi Ba Gua refers to the Early Heaven Ba Gua, while King Wen's Ba Gua to the Later Heaven arrangement.

 

Therefore I am just referring to the Early Heaven arrangement for now

 

>>In the Xian Tian arrangement, the lowest line always determines the gender, and the sons are, counting the lines from bottom to top, yang-yin-yin (Gen), yang-yin-yang (Li), and yang-yang-yin (Tui), while the other three trigrams with mixed lines are daughters (and of course triple yang is father and triple yin is mother).<<

 

Cool. That solves one problem. Thankx

 

What about the idea of classiying all the Yang Tigrams as a Yang family; where

a bottom Yang with two Yin Yao on top is First Yang-Eldest Son

a Yang line in the middle with the two other Yin is Second Son -Second Yang &

a Yang line on top sitting on two yin lines is Third Son - Third Yang

 

Any idea where that might be derived from? Again it is mentioned in the context of Fu Xi (Early Heaven) Ba Gua in a chapter on explaining the assignement of the 12 meridians to the 8 Ba Gua.

 

Thankx for the bits of intro-knowledge on I Ching theory.

 

 

Harry

[Taomeow]

Thankx for the quick response, Taomeow

 

much appreciated. And thankx much for the book recommendation.

 

Let me make the steps in order:

 

I am sure that some people make downright false claims... but can it already start at the beginning?

 

I mean: what is lesser Yin and lesser Yang (just the two line aspect) can not be that difficult, can it? And it for now has nothing to do with Pre- or Postheaven arrangement...

 

if we go back here:

 

http://www.geo-principles.com/basic6.htm

 

There the "trouble starts":

In the diagram is pictured that from the Yang line Greater Yang & LESSER Yin get derived,

while from the Yin-line LESSER Yang and Greater Yin get derived from.

 

NOW: This is the few supported by Master Al Huang supposedly a Master of the I Ching.

 

BUT: as the other link denoted it is put the opposite and Dr. Tan, one of the leading I Ching acupuncturists, does put it the opposite way as well, namely that:

 

while he uses the same pictures as in the link above, he simply says that the one with the Yang line on the bottom and the Yin on top is actually Lesser Yang (so: from the Yang line we derive Greater Yang & Lesser Yang and not Lesser Yin as stated before: again realizing that both authors use the same line setup but name it the opposite").

 

If you were so kind to solve that basic trouble for me it already would be like birthday & Christmas together!

Now forward to the question of Early & Later Heaven:

 

my topic line is "Fu Xi Ba Gua"... from the material that is in my hands I know that Fu Xi Ba Gua refers to the Early Heaven Ba Gua, while King Wen's Ba Gua to the Later Heaven arrangement.

 

Therefore I am just referring to the Early Heaven arrangement for now

 

>>In the Xian Tian arrangement, the lowest line always determines the gender, and the sons are, counting the lines from bottom to top, yang-yin-yin (Gen), yang-yin-yang (Li), and yang-yang-yin (Tui), while the other three trigrams with mixed lines are daughters (and of course triple yang is father and triple yin is mother).<<

 

Cool. That solves one problem. Thankx

 

What about the idea of classiying all the Yang Tigrams as a Yang family; where

a bottom Yang with two Yin Yao on top is First Yang-Eldest Son

a Yang line in the middle with the two other Yin is Second Son -Second Yang &

a Yang line on top sitting on two yin lines is Third Son - Third Yang

 

Any idea where that might be derived from? Again it is mentioned in the context of Fu Xi (Early Heaven) Ba Gua in a chapter on explaining the assignement of the 12 meridians to the 8 Ba Gua.

 

Thankx for the bits of intro-knowledge on I Ching theory.

 

 

Harry

 

 

You're welcome! and I apologize for a cursory/hasty response, I was just taking a break from something I normally never do (watching two movies in a row) and my mind was full of rats (Ratatoille) and spider pigs (The Simpsons Movie). I'll go with your steps in order now (didn't see your links before).

 

Master Huang is right. If you go to the Circular I Ching, you can see the original trigrams as they first appear, in a sequence that corresponds to Fu Xi's arrangement. You can see how they naturally produce the 64 hexagrams. The latter can then be arranged in a linear fashion in a certain order -- King Wen's or the Duke of Zhou's (the latter, actually, is the one we all are familiar with, in China they sometimes call it simply the Zhouyi, "Zhou's Changes.") If you go to the link which is my signature, it will take you to a forum adorned with an image of the Circular I Ching in the upper left corner.

 

Doctor Tan is right only if he's gay yet able to beget children. "From the Yang line we derive Greater Yang and Lesser Yang" and so on means he is bent on mixing yang with yang to produce yang, yin with yin to produce yin. That he has supporters simply means there's more people out there bent on "pure yang" or "pure yin" ideals. Of course no actual "children" are "produced" by such a family, whether sons or daughters, only imaginary ones. This imaginary happy gay family where two fathers give birth to a son is what Dr. Tan proposes, for reasons best known to himself.

 

OK, gotta run, more later...

Edited August 25, 2007 by Taomeow

[sunshine]

>>>You're welcome! and I apologize for a cursory/hasty response, I was just taking a break from something I normally never do (watching two movies in a row) and my mind was full of rats (Ratatoille) and spider pigs (The Simpsons Movie).<<<

 

Simpsons was/is a good one. How about Ratatoille... was the next one on my list as soon as it hits cinema here in Germany

 

>>>If you go to the link which is my signature, it will take you to a forum adorned with an image of the Circular I Ching in the upper left corner.<<<

 

Do you possibly have a link to a bigger image. Far too little on my screen and when I copy and paste and make it bigger it gets too blurred... by the way: nice to now know about that forum. Skipped my mind befire...

 

>>>Doctor Tan is right only if he's gay yet able to beget children.<<<

 

Ups. Just to clarify. I got this from his last seminar... so maybe he just made a mistake there... will see what he is presenting on the congress in October. Sorry if I did him wrong especially because I know he very much enjoys the female....

 

>>>"From the Yang line we derive Greater Yang and Lesser Yang" and so on means he is bent on mixing yang with yang to produce yang, yin with yin to produce yin.<<

 

These are my words used trying to put the ideas down on paper... might not be his. And to be honest: I don't understand. Adding a Yin line on top of the Yang line is not really like using yang to produce yang, right?

 

And by the way: from an intellectual logical point of view:

if the bottom line actually denotes the sexual status, as you mentioned previously is the case in the Early Heaven formation, then a bottom yang line to me would indicate a "male": so. why then call a male "Shao Yin" if it actually is less yang (Shao Yang) by the Yin line added to it?

 

>>>That he has supporters simply means there's more people out there bent on "pure yang" or "pure yin" ideals. Of course no actual "children" are "produced" by such a family, whether sons or daughters, only imaginary ones. This imaginary happy gay family where two fathers give birth to a son is what Dr. Tan proposes, for reasons best known to himself.

 

The idea of the Yang Guas presenting the "male family. with father, eldest, middle and first son" is from a different I Ching acupuncturist. This one actually uses the Shao Yin and Shao Yang according to "your standards"... meaning right then.

 

thankx again

 

Harry

Edited August 26, 2007 by sunshine