Shouldn't Acupuncture be able to lead to Enlightenment by opening things up?

[C T]

 

There is the Buddhist teaching of the two obstructions to enlightenment. The first obstruction is simply negative emotions, and the second obstruction is conceptual thought (particularly dualistic thought, regarding the notion of oneself). The reason the latter is an obstruction is because it's the root cause of the first obstruction.

 

Anything that lessens negative emotions (suffering) is a practice of reducing suffering and making room for the enlightened nature, is it not?

 

This is also why the paramitas work...because they get rid of the two obstructions.

 

At least this is according to my understanding.

I have trained with and attended teachings from a number of Buddhist teachers from different traditions, and all of these outstanding teachers advocate the virtues of persistent self-observation coupled with patience and determination in applying oneself to correct practice, attending sharply to one's physical and mental gait with as much mindfulness as possible with the aim of first dismantling and then subjugating the obstructions that you mentioned above.

 

In Vajrayana, particularly guru yoga, there is very much the emphasis on developing bodhicitta thru accumulating merit by way of performing hundreds of thousands of mantra repetitions, prostrations, making offerings, and other ritualistic exercises... there are no Vajrayana paths nor masters who would be so bold as to proclaim that such observances can be frivolously put aside in favour of finding short-cuts or by reducing practice time thru seeking external support. External supports have their place in spiritual cultivation, but to expect these to somehow replace the necessity of right effort is to have misplaced one's priorities.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The claim that you received transmission which apparently reduced practice time by 5 years makes it sound as if the path to awakening is so 'boom' easy. It may be simple, but never that easy. If it was, fledgling Dzogchenpas need not have to attend numerous long term retreats, and having to undergo arduous training to facilitate stability of mind nature, of which its recognition is only the first step on a long, lonely road.

that's the beauty of dzogchen, it predates buddhism and is its own thing, and in it, you can receive enlightenment within a day via transmission.....no worries on wrong views, and countless mantras and this and that...everything is instantly seen as arising from the primordial and any views of having to enter some kind of path, do this, do that, follow this master or that one, is all just conceptual madness that's superimposed over the primordial purity.

 

The dzogchen masters who do continue in solitude practice are merely opening up further the channels in the body, the 3 dan tiens, etc.

 

But hey, whatever floats your boat. Some people love and are addicted to seeking, and all the charades that come with over-complicating everything..... others just ride their bike in the forest preserve and spontaneously find themselves in permanent enlightenment.

 

For me, whats best is the fastest route there.....

[C T]

that's the beauty of dzogchen, it predates buddhism and is its own thing, and in it, you can receive enlightenment within a day via transmission.....no worries on wrong views, and countless mantras and this and that...everything is instantly seen as arising from the primordial and any views of having to enter some kind of path, do this, do that, follow this master or that one, is all just conceptual madness that's superimposed over the primordial purity.

 

The dzogchen masters who do continue in solitude practice are merely opening up further the channels in the body, the 3 dan tiens, etc.

 

But hey, whatever floats your boat. Some people love and are addicted to seeking, and all the charades that come with over-complicating everything..... others just ride their bike in the forest preserve and spontaneously find themselves in permanent enlightenment.

 

For me, whats best is the fastest route there.....

Authentic Dzogchen masters warn against having such a mindset with regards to the Dzogchen path.

[silent thunder]

love might be the best shortcut to enlightenment...

[dawei]

Acupuncture as a healing modality is superb. I use it too from time to time, and i do not doubt its functions. Call me cynical, but what i have reservations about is its efficaciousness in bringing about causes of enlightenment. Please do not waste energy in speculating/entertaining such an impossible notion.

 

I recall a group of western acupuncturist trying to duplicate the results of an eastern acupuncture study... and they could not. They finally went to talk to the eastern doctors about their needling techniques. Instead the eastern doctors asked whether the patient's believe in the efficacy of the doctor and the method of acupuncture.

 

I think the moral of the story is simply that there is more than just one influence on the mind-body-spirit in most cases.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

Authentic Dzogchen masters warn against having such a mindset with regards to the Dzogchen path.

any mindset is conceptual...the primordial is always there, self evident.

 

"masters" is mind........."warning against" is mind.........."mindset" is mind......."dzogchen path" is mind

Appearance is mind, and emptiness is mind.

Realization is mind, and confusion is mind.

Arising is mind, cessation also is mind.

May all doubts about mind be resolved.

"masters" is mind........."warning against" is mind.........."mindset" is mind......."dzogchen path" is mind

[Sebastian]

I think that Thetaoiseasy hinted at the fact that acupuncture is playing with the water element, or the flow of our meridians which are like rivers. Because this flow is malleable, it is not something that can be permanent and lead to a constant state, for example enlightenment.

 

In qigong we play with the most supple element, air, to try to get a smooth flow in our meridians which are represented by the water element. In that sense, acupuncture can supplement our qi-gong efforts.

 

However to reach a more permanent state in our meridians, we need to work with the fire element, and "burn" the meridians open with the Yang Chi or kundalini energy. This can't be done by acupuncture but could be transferred by a Master with a shakti transmission.

 

So you can theoretically go very far with someone working on you, but imo it's pretty dangerous unless you are cultivating yourself.

 

I don't think someone can give you enlightenment via acupuncture or transmissions but I think that you energy body can be sculpted externally to emulate what an enlightened person might feel.

[johndoe2012]

In the end go with your intuition.

 

It comes from yourself and is part of the higher intelligence, the Tao.

 

You get the intuitive knowing, you do it. The more this process is done the more it becomes natural and second nature to you and you don't need input from others.

 

Book knowledge and other general suggestions is dead intelligence since it is disconnected from you in that particular situation.

[C T]

any mindset is conceptual...the primordial is always there, self evident.

 

"masters" is mind........."warning against" is mind.........."mindset" is mind......."dzogchen path" is mind

"masters" is mind........."warning against" is mind.........."mindset" is mind......."dzogchen path" is mind

yes, mind, not acupuncture.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have trained with and attended teachings from a number of Buddhist teachers from different traditions, and all of these outstanding teachers advocate the virtues of persistent self-observation coupled with patience and determination in applying oneself to correct practice, attending sharply to one's physical and mental gait with as much mindfulness as possible with the aim of first dismantling and then subjugating the obstructions that you mentioned above.

 

In Vajrayana, particularly guru yoga, there is very much the emphasis on developing bodhicitta thru accumulating merit by way of performing hundreds of thousands of mantra repetitions, prostrations, making offerings, and other ritualistic exercises... there are no Vajrayana paths nor masters who would be so bold as to proclaim that such observances can be frivolously put aside in favour of finding short-cuts or by reducing practice time thru seeking external support. External supports have their place in spiritual cultivation, but to expect these to somehow replace the necessity of right effort is to have misplaced one's priorities.

 

Perhaps these are the shortcuts .

 

Shortcut doesn't mean easier. Ever climbed straight up a mountain through the brush and trees instead of taking the longer but much easier switchbacks?

 

On a side note, what is the hurry (I'm asking everyone not just C T. I never quite understood that part.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I recall a group of western acupuncturist trying to duplicate the results of an eastern acupuncture study... and they could not. They finally went to talk to the eastern doctors about their needling techniques. Instead the eastern doctors asked whether the patient's believe in the efficacy of the doctor and the method of acupuncture.

 

I think the moral of the story is simply that there is more than just one influence on the mind-body-spirit in most cases.

 

It's because the Western ones don't incorporate qi into their needling .

[C T]

Perhaps these are the shortcuts .

 

Shortcut doesn't mean easier. Ever climbed straight up a mountain through the brush and trees instead of taking the longer but much easier switchbacks?

 

On a side note, what is the hurry (I'm asking everyone not just C T. I never quite understood that part.

Isn't there a saying somewhere proclaiming that the longest way around is often the quickest way home?

Edited July 25, 2014 by C T

[Brian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfApBz4_XQk

[Spotless]

Considering the history of acupuncture and its ties with traditional chinese medicine including chi, meridians, chakras, dan tians, taoism, martial arts, etc...

 

......so considering all the ties, couldn't you technically open up all the dan tians, central channel, and hasten your Enlightenment through the use of hitting certain acupuncture points?

 

I ask cause this has been popping up via intuition as a methodology that should technically work, plus I'm going in for a session for some lower back pain and was just reconsidering these ties all over again.

 

What say you Bums?

 

The body is not a thing we wear that shackles us to the mundane and from which we must unlock our self and gain freedom.

It is also not a group of dams all waiting to be opened up and upon such a time we (the spirit/soul) will be able to enjoy an awakened state together.

 

The body is not the "problem" and no problem exists - literally.

 

Not one Enlightened teacher has ever not stated that enlightenment is waiting in every moment.

 

Every single student of every single enlightened teacher that ever gained enlightenment has discovered that the little tiny statement that the master put out here and there saying it was all just an illusion and only took the slightest shift to awakened did not hear their master and they will jump up and down with surprise that the master actually meant what he/she stated over and over again when they become enlightened - they will also tell their students that it was there all along absolutely brilliant and only a shift and the light is everywhere.

 

This is a spiritual matter - we are not the body - this animated dust that is our vehicle here in paradise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ya Mu]

It's because the Western ones don't incorporate qi into their needling .

Quan An Men hospital, PRC, Chief Physician quote: "Our acupuncture doctors who practice qigong have far better results than our acupuncture doctors who don't." Although he was a bit surprised I asked him the question and a bit reluctant to answer.

[Spotless]

Their was the most important energy cooking in the oven - it had been cooking for eons and the door was shut tight.

Then one day a slap came from the wife and she told him she was leaving and taking the kids.

The tragedy unfolded and he broke down and in a moment of unbearable grief a release and the door opened and he became enlightened.

 

Their was the most important energy cooking in the oven - it had been cooking for eons and the door was shut tight.

Someone gave her a ticket to a lecture or something and on a lark she decided to attend.

20 minutes into the lecture the door opened and she was enlightened.

 

Their was the most important energy cooking in the oven - it had been cooking for eons and the door was shut tight.

The monk had been beating his head against the wall for so many years trying to understand the profoundly confusing faith to which he had given himself to. He asked for only a morsel of respite from the torture of its weight but he was too weary that day in that moment and gave up - and the door opened and he was enlightened.

 

Their was the most important energy cooking in the oven - it had been cooking for eons and the door was shut tight.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Spotless

[joeblast]

I read the title and thought, something is perceived as external. heh...quaint, imho

[Ya Mu]

 

Brian, does this mean if you needle me enough I will become in-light-ened? Just joking....

 

By the way, to address the OP. As IME "there are always higher levels", then "NO" to your question; however, it would depend on your definition of enlightenment - if you mean "awaken" then it is entirely possible as the simple act of a rain drop falling on your nose has the possibility of accomplishing that.

[joeblast]

I think the thing people miss is having the conditions for such a thing. when the conditions are proper, the phenomena will manifest with the slightest of ease.

 

 

 

without the right conditions, bang your head all you want

 

 

Thus it becomes more of a question on how to arrange conditions, rather than ignoring those to find some shortcut to get you there without having put in the work.

 

Aint no such thing as spiritual welfare, folks. Put in the time, harvest the vine.

Edited July 25, 2014 by joeblast

[allinone]

The body is not a thing we wear that shackles us to the mundane and from which we must unlock our self and gain freedom. It is also not a group of dams all waiting to be opened up and upon such a time we (the spirit/soul) will be able to enjoy an awakened state together. The body is not the "problem" and no problem exists - literally. Not one Enlightened teacher has ever not stated that enlightenment is waiting in every moment. Every single student of every single enlightened teacher that ever gained enlightenment has discovered that the little tiny statement that the master put out here and there saying it was all just an illusion and only took the slightest shift to awakened did not hear their master and they will jump up and down with surprise that the master actually meant what he/she stated over and over again when they become enlightened - they will also tell their students that it was there all along absolutely brilliant and only a shift and the light is everywhere. This is a spiritual matter - we are not the body - this animated dust that is our vehicle here in paradise.

 

I think soul is here so much as waking self is in dream. Body and mind are made of same stuff. In my eyes it is perfectly logical to open all channels in body and realize true emptiness and turn body into a light or whatever appearance.

[C T]

I think the thing people miss is having the conditions for such a thing. when the conditions are proper, the phenomena will manifest with the slightest of ease.

 

 

 

without the right conditions, bang your head all you want

 

 

Thus it becomes more of a question on how to arrange conditions, rather than ignoring those to find some shortcut to get you there without having put in the work.

 

Aint no such thing as spiritual welfare, folks. Put in the time, harvest the vine.

so true..

[C T]

I think soul is here so much as waking self is in dream. Body and mind are made of same stuff. In my eyes it is perfectly logical to open all channels in body and realize true emptiness and turn body into a light or whatever appearance.

 

Its easy enough to spout phrases like "open all channels and realize true emptiness", but to even reach the edge of grasping the immensity of such an alchemical process i'm afraid not many can, nor have the patience to bring this to bear in a fashion that resembles a samurai forger devotedly shaping & honing a perfect katana from a tamahagane.

 

Oh, btw, there really really isn't any such thing as 'true emptiness'.

Edited July 25, 2014 by C T

[allinone]

Its easy enough to spout phrases like "open all channels and realize true emptiness", but to even reach the edge of grasping the immensity of such an alchemical process i'm afraid not many can, nor have the patience to bring this to bear in a fashion that resembles a samurai forger devotedly shaping & honing a perfect katana from a tamahagane.

 

Oh, btw, there really really isn't any such thing as 'true emptiness'.

 

Its simple as realizing that there is no other way than just do it. If you believe in this kind of stuff you don't need more merit from cultivating good deeds or reciting mantras etc.

Opening channel, the energy there will force you to purify karma and virtues will come by themselves naturally.

 

"true emptiness"- emptiness seems to be the endgoal, but emptiness is relative too, it depends on the self.

And even if people realize nondual, it does not end duality. From this strating opening channels is logical continuance after getting a taste what emptiness is.

Edited July 26, 2014 by allinone

[GrandmasterP]

"Emptiness" tastes like chocolate.

[C T]

"Emptiness" tastes like chocolate.

Or maybe a crumpet?