Shouldn't Acupuncture be able to lead to Enlightenment by opening things up?

[BaguaKicksAss]

How about if some enlightened person is the one doing the needling and opening up the meridians?

 

The title of this thread is "leads to" not happens instantaneously...

[Brian]

"...may contribute to...", perhaps?

[C T]

Really? If thats the case, almost anything can be part of the equation, subject to each individual's biases.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Really? If thats the case, almost anything can be part of the equation, subject to each individual's biases.

 

OK so basically the only things which can help lead to enlightenment are the individual's own work?

 

How about transmission?

 

(don't mind the newbie questions here, haven't met many enlightened people to ask!)

[Brian]

Really? If thats the case, almost anything can be part of the equation, subject to each individual's biases.

That's what I was thinking. Seems to be a subjectifying trend developing in this thread. I suspect that's a reflection of the fuzziness associated with the term "enlightenment" as well as the somewhat nebulous nature of the phrase "be able to lead to" in the OP's subject.

[BaguaKicksAss]

There is a thread around here somewhere which asks what enlightenment is from what I recall. I also seem to recall that there wasn't much of a consensus .

 

C T, what is enlightenment from your understanding?

[C T]

Enlightenment is to be completely free of craving and delusion, from the Buddhist perspective.

 

Craving and delusion, the father and mother of samsara, adopts suffering as the nanny to the false sense of self.

 

Therefore, enlightenment is our default state, one which never-endingly renews itself in the complete absence of the 'I' trace.

 

If anyone thinks that there is actually a person to attain enlightenment, then that is not the Buddhist view of what enlightenment is.

 

The Jewel Heap Sutra explains this point most clearly, if anyone interested they are welcome to read it up.

 

A short excerpt below:

 

“Kasyapa! Some monks observe the precepts completely. They are always afraid of committing any transgression, whether major or minor, and obey all the rules of discipline they have learned. They are pure in action, word, and thought, and adopt a pure, right means of livelihood. However, they uphold the doctrine, which claims that there is a real ‘self’. These people constitute the first kind of monk who breaks the precepts but seems to keep the precepts well. Kasyapa, some monks practice all twelve austerities, but see something attainable in doing so. They constitute the fourth kind of monk who breaks the precepts but seems to keep the precepts well.”

 

The Mahāvaipulya Mahāsamghāta Sutra also said: “If a bodhisattva claims: I uphold the precepts, he breaks the precepts; this is a false bodhisattva.” For the same reason, the Great Treatise on the Perfection of Wisdom also said: “An ordinary person breaks the precepts, a superior person upholds the precepts, the most outstanding person does not uphold the precepts.”

[C T]

OK so basically the only things which can help lead to enlightenment are the individual's own work?

 

How about transmission?

 

(don't mind the newbie questions here, haven't met many enlightened people to ask!)

Yes, on the outer level, the level of form, we have to do the work and put in the right effort coupled with the right view and a reliance on ethics and the Vinaya as our foundational guide.

 

On the inner level, we rely on the secret Mantrayana's generation and completion stages to lead us further along...

 

And finally, at the innermost level, we develop a private, unspoken affinity with the Great Perfection to bring us as close as possible to the attainment of rainbow body in one lifetime (maybe not this one, but we can use this opportune lifetime as the precursor towards that noble goal, hopefully in the next one).

 

The above is the friendly advice given by Padmasambhava to all aspiring Dzogchen practitioners.

[GrandmasterP]

Yes, on the outer level, the level of form, we have to do the work and put in the right effort coupled with the right view and a reliance on ethics and the Vinaya as our foundational guide.

 

On the inner level, we rely on the secret Mantrayana's generation and completion stages to lead us further along...

 

And finally, at the innermost level, we develop a private, unspoken affinity with the Great Perfection to bring us as close as possible to the attainment of rainbow body in one lifetime (maybe not this one, but we can use this opportune lifetime as the precursor towards that noble goal, hopefully in the next one).

 

The above is the friendly advice given by Padmasambhava to all aspiring Dzogchen practitioners.

 

That seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Seth Ananda]

There is a spectrum of experience.

 

Whether meridians or chakras or anything else,

 

closed exists somewhere down the line from open.

 

Open and closed may have differing degrees of pleasure or preferability inherent within them,

 

Yet they remain experiences within the nature of mind.

 

As long as the nature of mind goes unrecognised, there is only ignorance.

 

no needle will lead you to enlightenment,

 

other than the needle of inquiry and observation.

[GrandmasterP]

There is no just a coincidence that John Chang was actually an acupuncturist doctor.

 

Prawn farmer and a landlord was " John Chang" ( not his name).

He had shares with his wife's family in a seafood restaurant too.

His son continues the business side.

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

Soooo, there is not really an energetic counterpart to enlightenment then?

 

How come folks play with the chackras so much?

 

I'm curious about all those neigong energetic practices, and clearing things out energetically on the way. Does this lead to enlightenment, or no?

[ChiForce]

No.....because enlightenment has to do with the mind and consciousness and gaining the Dharma wisdom. Acupuncture can only rebalance your internal energy and to get your internal organs to function properly.

[ChiForce]

Enlightenment is to be completely free of craving and delusion, from the Buddhist perspective.

 

Craving and delusion, the father and mother of samsara, adopts suffering as the nanny to the false sense of self.

 

Therefore, enlightenment is our default state, one which never-endingly renews itself in the complete absence of the 'I' trace.

 

If anyone thinks that there is actually a person to attain enlightenment, then that is not the Buddhist view of what enlightenment is.

 

The Jewel Heap Sutra explains this point most clearly, if anyone interested they are welcome to read it up.

 

A short excerpt below:

 

“Kasyapa! Some monks observe the precepts completely. They are always afraid of committing any transgression, whether major or minor, and obey all the rules of discipline they have learned. They are pure in action, word, and thought, and adopt a pure, right means of livelihood. However, they uphold the doctrine, which claims that there is a real ‘self’. These people constitute the first kind of monk who breaks the precepts but seems to keep the precepts well. Kasyapa, some monks practice all twelve austerities, but see something attainable in doing so. They constitute the fourth kind of monk who breaks the precepts but seems to keep the precepts well.”

 

The Mahāvaipulya Mahāsamghāta Sutra also said: “If a bodhisattva claims: I uphold the precepts, he breaks the precepts; this is a false bodhisattva.” For the same reason, the Great Treatise on the Perfection of Wisdom also said: “An ordinary person breaks the precepts, a superior person upholds the precepts, the most outstanding person does not uphold the precepts.”

Sigh......just a circular argument of why everyone is already enlightened. Therefore, no need to work towards to obtain enlightenment. Hehehehe......

 

Of course, anyone who has experienced the kundalini energy rising and reaching to various states of Samdhi would tell you that you need to work towards obtaining enlightenment. To learn to penetrate the first skandha of forms. To understand the impermanent nature of phenomena by merging yourself with it, to get entangled with it. The Dharma wisdom does not come to you just because you have been told that everyone is already enlightened.

[C T]

Soooo, there is not really an energetic counterpart to enlightenment then?

 

How come folks play with the chackras so much?

 

I'm curious about all those neigong energetic practices, and clearing things out energetically on the way. Does this lead to enlightenment, or no?

Put it this way... the fundamental work has to be done first and foremost, and this is to disband craving and delusional tendencies, to yank these out at the root. At least this is what the Mahayana path encourages its followers to observe.

 

If there is even the slightest traces of craving and delusion, giving rise to a false conception of an 'I', then even the highest practices will serve no different than like a gold chain around one's neck at one end and a concrete block at the other, and no matter how devout and diligent a practitioner puts him or herself to the task of gaining enlightenment, he or she will lose it for sure.

 

If a simple person, having fully grasped the meaning of union of wisdom and emptiness, and in the process conquer all attachment to a false sense of selfhood, then even if he or she does not have the good karma to adopt all kinds of sophistry with regards to energetic practices, then he or she will still attain to liberation.

 

In this sense, it is safe to say that the primary work is to first train the mind, followed by the taking on of energetic practices or whatever one fancies doing, rather than doing the practices with the aim of that leading to a tamed mind. This is the common sense approach from the Mahayana perspective.

 

Therefore, the question of whether acupuncture and/or other energetic cultivations can lead to enlightenment or not comes with the hopeful understanding that there are prerequisites involved. For the practitioner who has gained wisdom and compassion to a high degree, then all practices can lead to liberation, even the most mundane ones. On the other hand, if a practitioner still clings to dualistic thoughts, then no matter what practices are undertaken, there will be limited benefits.

 

At least this is how the Mahayana path approaches the matter.

[C T]

Sigh......just a circular argument of why everyone is already enlightened. Therefore, no need to work towards to obtain enlightenment. Hehehehe......

 

Of course, anyone who has experienced the kundalini energy rising and reaching to various states of Samdhi would tell you that you need to work towards obtaining enlightenment. To learn to penetrate the first skandha of forms. To understand the impermanent nature of phenomena by merging yourself with it, to get entangled with it. The Dharma wisdom does not come to you just because you have been told that everyone is already enlightened.

I dont think you are following my posts too well.

[ChiForce]

I dont think you are following my posts too well.

I see you have somewhat corrected your previous statements....it would be nice if you can say it with fewer words.....

[C T]

I see you have somewhat corrected your previous statements....it would be nice if you can say it with fewer words.....

Im not aware of making any corrections. You must be mistaken.

[ChiForce]

Im not aware of making any corrections. You must be mistaken.

Here it goes...hehehe.. this is what you wrote:

 

"Enlightenment is to be completely free of craving and delusion, from the Buddhist perspective.

 

Craving and delusion, the father and mother of samsara, adopts suffering as the nanny to the false sense of self.

 

Therefore, enlightenment is our default state, one which never-endingly renews itself in the complete absence of the 'I' trace.

 

If anyone thinks that there is actually a person to attain enlightenment, then that is not the Buddhist view of what enlightenment is."

 

Enlightenment is a default state. Meaning and in the normal language, everybody is already enlightened. Then, you went on about no person should be obtaining enlightenment. If so, that's not the Buddhadharma

 

Nice concept and theory but they mean nothing to a person who never experienced the kundalini energy or to have all of their chakras open. Again, just because you have been told that everybody is already enlightened (that's pretty much what you are saying in a direct way), it does not mean you are already enlightened. The mind needs to be cultivated. Phenomena must be experienced and to understand the impermanent nature of it.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ChiForce

[C T]

Here it goes...hehehe.. this is what you wrote:

 

"Enlightenment is to be completely free of craving and delusion, from the Buddhist perspective.

 

Craving and delusion, the father and mother of samsara, adopts suffering as the nanny to the false sense of self.

 

Therefore, enlightenment is our default state, one which never-endingly renews itself in the complete absence of the 'I' trace.

 

If anyone thinks that there is actually a person to attain enlightenment, then that is not the Buddhist view of what enlightenment is."

 

Enlightenment is a default state. Meaning and in the normal language, everybody is already enlightened. Then, you went on about no person should be obtaining enlightenment. If so, that's not the Bodhidharma.

 

Nice concept and theory but they mean nothing to a person who never experienced the kundalini energy or to have all of their chakras open. Again, just because you have been told that everybody is already enlightened (that's pretty much what you are saying in a direct way), it does not mean you are already enlightened. The mind needs to be cultivated. Phenomena must be experienced and to understand the impermanent nature of it.

Perhaps i should clarify:

 

There is enlightenment, the innermost essence of what is, but there is no 'body' to attain that essence. You can't, i can't, Obama can't. For we cannot attain something we have never lost.

 

There is no suffering, the nature of which is false, but the moment we conceive of an 'I' (which then sets the 12 links in motion), birth, old age, sickness and death enters the fray with much aplomb.

 

Which explains why i said that enlightenment is the default state of all sentient beings. Those who are caught up with the notion that there is a 'self' which enlightens is bound by a gold chain, and those who are caught up with the notion that life is suffering is also bound -- with a thicker chain, made of lead.

 

The happy news is that if you don't do the work, you'll definitely remain stuck. If you do the work, then you might hopefully gain the realisation that you were never stuck in the first place. Take your pick.

 

 

 

edit.. grammar.

Edited July 29, 2014 by C T

[Seth Ananda]

Soooo, there is not really an energetic counterpart to enlightenment then?

Ohh I didn't say that

But energy without recognition is still just energy without recognition.

How come folks play with the chackras so much?

Our busy mind remains a very poor tool for investigating the nature of phenomena/experience/mind. The deep meditative states, samadhi and so on, are amazing for that investigation.

I'm curious about all those neigong energetic practices, and clearing things out energetically on the way. Does this lead to enlightenment, or no?

 

Depends on your definition of enlightenment. In some Hindu thought, yes. In others, or Buddhism, no.

 

I think the Immortal spirit development doesn't equal enlightenment, but should possibly come first, or at least be a side on practice to ones Mysticism.

Death has always been the great obstacle, and if every time you die, your soul and spirit separate, causing eventual rebirth without memories then how well can you proceed?

If you can attain the wedding that allows continuity of self after death, then you have a lot longer to practice enlightenment methods.

 

Achieving both is ideal, the 'enlightenment' of substance and of mind.

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The mind creates the body. The mind creates samsara and nirvana... The mind, in ignorance, manifests the five lights as impure forms. The body comes from the mind. Why would opening the last man on the totem pole, why would clearing the manifestation, why would pruning the branches effect a change in the root?

 

If one has to swim against the current to get back to the source, you can open all the channels that you want, but you still have to swim back against the current, back to the source. But, you are already at the source, you have to convince your mind that you don't need to swim back to it.

 

It is not you looking from the body inwards, it is you manifesting the body outwards from the source.

 

Redirect the source and the manifestations will change accordingly...

TI,

What I'm saying is that, no matter the approach you take, be it with what you describe above, taoist based practices, grace, advaita, yoga, christian mysticism, etc......the way Enlightenment reveals itself is by Awareness dropping into the heart or hara via central channel and merges there. Everyone is just calling it by different names and different ways there.....paths may be different, but the destination is always universally the same.

 

We're still on the same page, just looking at it with various angles

[ॐDominicusॐ]

The happy news is that if you don't do the work, you'll definitely remain stuck. If you do the work, then you might hopefully gain the realisation that you were never stuck in the first place. Take your pick.

 

Why do the work if there is no "I" to do any of the work and no such thing as gaining any reailisations about never being stuck in the first place? Especially when you say:

Perhaps i should clarify:

 

There is enlightenment, the innermost essence of what is, but there is no 'body' to attain that essence. You can't, i can't, Obama can't. For we cannot attain something we have never lost.

 

There is no suffering, the nature of which is false, but the moment we conceive of an 'I' (which then sets the 12 links in motion), birth, old age, sickness and death enters the fray with much aplomb.

 

Which explains why i said that enlightenment is the default state of all sentient beings. Those who are caught up with the notion that there is a 'self' which enlightens is bound by a gold chain, and those who are caught up with the notion that life is suffering is also bound -- with a thicker chain, made of lead.

Sure I agree its a default state, but ask a million people about this state, and you'll be lucky to find one who knows it, meaning that there still has to be energy put into motion to investigate and figure out all of this.

 

Even Buddha after Enlightenment, cried after hearing that his family got killed in a war.

 

These are all just a myriad of countless views, and even with your post, there are quite a few teachers (A.H. Almaas being one of them) talking about how the view in your quote belongs to the school of "Absolutists" that speak of how its "only that," and nothing else, but how in reality it is that, along with pure subjectivity, and the personhood's individuality perfectly intertwined with the Absolute.

 

At the end, everything can be argued for or against.

[Andrei]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/99535352/Foundations-of-Internal-Alchemy-A-Slideshow

[allinone]

bright essence(lower tandien), self(middle tandien), mind(upper tandien).

 

self is within bright essence and mind is within self.

 

Whatever we experience, our body and energy system is mind. Then we can switch back to the self and be aware of the mind.

After that we can (re)learn to sense and cultivate the bright essence and at the end realize sameness of this stuff and my self and in order to enlighten the mind i need to make the insight happen by replacing the old with the new..

 

from wikipedia:

The Sanskrit term bhūmi literally means "ground" or "foundation". Each stage represents a level of attainment, and serves as a basis for the next one. Each level marks a definite advancement in one's training, that is accompanied by progressively greater power and wisdom.