Insanity from an energetic, Buddhist, magical, Taoist, and etc. perspective?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm curious what the various paths/faiths and practices feel insanity is?

 

Does it exist?

 

How does it come about?

 

Can it be cured/healed?

 

By this I mean folks who are bad off enough that they cannot function in their lives well enough to take care of themselves, or are so tortured by their thoughts or voices that they are tortured all day everyday. So Schizophrenia and the like.

 

Also as a side curiosity, how come folks with schizophrenia and etc. seem to be so drawn to various energetic and spiritual practices? Further, are the visions and experiences that they get actually the truth and accurate or no? (from what I have seen not so much, but I'm curious about other perspectives on this).

[Brian]

I'd like to start this thread by stating for the record that I am not insane.

 

My mother had me tested.

[GrandmasterP]

Mental health issues and religious obsession do seem to go hand in hand with some poor sufferers.

All mental illness is treatable but some mental illness is difficult to 'cure'.

Psychopathy for one although the text books did used to say that psychopathy lessens after age 40.

Having looked after psychopaths I reckon they just get craftier with age and can hide it better, when it suits them.

Edited July 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[4bsolute]

What is refered as insanity is a lack of grounded energies. Grounding means understanding.

 

I suggest you dive into insanity with a strong heart chakra, a strong reconnection to Source/Tao and find out. Will surely lead you to great expanse in your entire being. Of course no one would suggest you investigating it without such a safety rope. But nothing can go wrong in the end of all ends anyway.

 

Insanity is in essence having no more concepts to deal with greater reality. I have no further help here, since I was not consciously in or out there, in meditation towards Tao, speaking from this lifetime.

 

But yes, insanity is just another illusion like all other fears. Insanity is fear. Fear of losing grip to what you previously have experienced as reality and found to be a safe haven. It's easy with physical reality. While it is also constantly changing, consciousness in human form tends to see it very fixed and therefor very safe.

 

When being immersed in a great current, why struggle to grasp out to an imaginary branch, while by letting go the other end of the river is reached with ease? Let's learn to swim in greater depths of reality!

Edited July 24, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Nungali]

I'm curious what the various paths/faiths and practices feel insanity is?

 

Does it exist?

 

How does it come about?

 

Can it be cured/healed?

That depends on what type of 'insanity' we are talking about

 

By this I mean folks who are bad off enough that they cannot function in their lives well enough to take care of themselves, or are so tortured by their thoughts or voices that they are tortured all day everyday. So Schizophrenia and the like.

 

I feel this too has certain types. Aside from that lets look at the bad, chronic , often long institutionalised , 'incurable' type - they are exactly the type Dr Wilson VanDusen dealt with (remember him ?)

 

Here we have the clinical view and a type of 'classical' (or at least 'Swedeborg ian' ) view. So I would direct any enquiry such as this, to that source.

 

In these cases, I postulate a type of internal sleeping auto-destruct programme ( due to the victims experiences) that fulfills a function much like a crocodile does in nature. Lesser and different types of manifestation relate to different causes, some very interesting, but they are a variety. Harpur has a good section on psychopathic crime (serial and 'theme' killers, etc ) being a twisted expression and a projection on to others of unfulfilled subjective but now projected shamanic motifs - interesting reading and analysis that!

 

Also as a side curiosity, how come folks with schizophrenia and etc. seem to be so drawn to various energetic and spiritual practices?

 

because . actually, there are crazy mother ****s everywhere! You keep running into them in magic, energetic and spiritual practices because they are the circles you move in .... (sorry, I couldnt resist that ... obviously I have had my fair share today of dealing with retards! ..... I dont mean on TBF )

 

Further, are the visions and experiences that they get actually the truth and accurate or no? (from what I have seen not so much, but I'm curious about other perspectives on this).

 

A mix; people suffering temporal lobe seizure can describe the same or similar hallucinations, but that could be to do with the area of the brain affected ?

 

Some can do a bit of both at the same time; guy in psyche ward one day when I was at work : "YOU! You keep away from me, I know what you are up to, you are one of them ! You communicate with UFO's , you have a machine which makes people do things they dont want to do and this morning you had toast and two boiled eggs for breakfast."

 

WELL ! Fuck me! He was right about the machine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... I mean the eggs and toast ... lucky guess ?

 

One of VanDusen's classifications to distinguish an 'hallucination of a good order' from an 'hallucination of a bad order' ( or angels and demons as some prefer) is that in questioning them (VanDusen, out of desperation of any thing else working, decided to interview and work with the possessing personalities instead of the person having them) the good order, at times, seemed to be able to know things beyond any possible knowledge of the patient themselves, bad order claimed to be able to do that but on examination it was revealed all their knowledge seemed based on what the patient already knew or could perceive, although the bad order would tell you otherwise and claim special powers.

 

I found that pretty interesting ... and very revealing ! And its not just 'spirits' that do that. (refer to numerous 'special powers' threads here )

 

The cause? One of them, in these cases, and considering what VanDusen, Swedenborg, Steiner and others wrote on this subject seems to be that there are functions of the psyche sleeping and dangerous, stirring up the psyche can stir them up. Either through undue attention on them or a ' separation' or fracturing of them (from the parts of the psyche that contain or control them) makes them think they have identity, and seek it. On rigorous examination, this breaks down, they cant support that in an interview or cross-examination.

 

Good orders dont claim identity, they claim to be representatives of force or form.

 

I note that in many cases , VanDusens observations and developed methods for dealing with these types of energies are very similar to practices used in evocation and invocation.

 

Two schools of thought exist on this subject ; it is better NOT to even be aware of any of this, the interna psyche has developed to NOT have us aware of this for a reason - keep Pandoras box shut! The other is (from Swedenborg, Steiner and others) to be forewarned is to be forearmed and we should have a skill set to be able to deal with it because it can arise.

 

Also its part of the jungle ... take a trip there ... expect to meet a tiger

[goldisheavy]

I'm curious what the various paths/faiths and practices feel insanity is?

 

I could tell you my personal views if you like. But I don't know of any spiritual path that takes a formal position on insanity, at least, not directly, and not in that language.

[idiot_stimpy]

My friend got sick, he said it was like the filter that separates his imagination and reality was broken.

[mike 134]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255894/Spiritual-people-likely-mentally-ill-think-life-meaning.html

[Spotless]

My friend got sick, he said it was like the filter that separates his imagination and reality was broken.

We have many filters - your friends way of explaining it was very keen.

 

Repairing them for someone is not particularly difficult and with exercises and disciplines of various sorts complete recovery and much more is possible.

 

Chemical imbalance (inherent) and physiological damage aside, most forms of insanity are very sad and very stuck complex spiritual maladies that can be cured but are often beyond either the scope of those attempting to effect a change to sanity in "the patient" or the patient is too far entangled to allow for the amount of funding and time it takes to bring an unwilling patient back into a state which requires willingness, and then for the slightly willing patient to then proceed long enough to overcome patterns that have become entrenched even though most if not all of the damaged areas have been put back in order.

 

This type of work can only be taught privately or it can be seen at some point by ones own merits.

 

I learned a great deal in looking at epilepsy - it is precisely as I stated above.

 

I had the great fortune once of watching an epileptic seizure take place in slow motion - meaning that I was able to observe the entire process quietly and clairvoyantly over a period of about 45 minutes leading to a complete epileptic fit on the floor of a lunch area. I was able to give immediate and effective action to the person from the moment they began moving toward the floor and ended the seizure as quickly as it had started.

 

The person/spirit to which it had happened was ashtonished to say the least when I brought him back quite forcefully into his body and the crowd was probably pretty bewildered by the bit of exchange the two of us then had.

 

It is possible to shock an insane person's space and hold them for a moment and talk to them as spirit - they are then quite aware they are in a very complex and gluey game and not unlike a kite flying in winds well beyond the flyers capacity to direct things significantly. This can be done in a waking walking space. It is much easier to speak with them as spirit out of their body in a clairvoyant space but is often troubled as well.

 

In the West we are not set up to do this kind of work - in India it is done.

Western medical is entirely clueless to the subtle nature of the problem - and everything they do is counter productive to effecting a movement to well being with the exception of chemical and physiological damage.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Spotless

[Nungali]

My friend got sick, he said it was like the filter that separates his imagination and reality was broken.

 

Oh thats a good one! This filter also helps us distinguish between imagination and its application in reality; the distinction between memory of an actual event or imagined memory, dreams, movies or images or stories told to us.

 

Its a lot thinner than many realise but has been exposed in recent years where dodgy hypnotherapy has been uncovered, and in some cases, mostly those relating to sexual abuse in the family, has lead to disasterous consequences

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

 

and the actual implanting of those false memories:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories

[Nungali]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255894/Spiritual-people-likely-mentally-ill-think-life-meaning.html

 

I know that a vast majority of local 'spiritual' new age people are on medical antidepressants. The local town's chemist has the highest rate per population of distributing these than any other chemist in the state. And its a calm peaceful beautiful place with beaches, forest, rivers, world heritage national parks, nature , wildlife, good facilities, etc.

 

I get rather urked at them when they go around sprouting their 'together' philosophy, when they are just full of 'surface happy' drugs ... all good and fine, peachy keen sunshine and rainbows .... until one of them kills themself ... which has happened a few times - the last one , who was supposed to cool and popular and to whose real state I tried to inform her friends about, out of concern - but what would I know was found dead, hanged in her wardrobe ... she had been there 6 days before housemates noticed the smell ... they knew she had 'gone somewhere' but didnt think to .... think anything about that .

 

Maybe what is on offer as 'spirituality' isnt working for the times we now live in ? ? ?

[Nungali]

 

Western medical is entirely clueless to the subtle nature of the problem - and everything they do is counter productive to effecting a movement to well being with the exception of chemical and physiological damage.

 

Perhaps ... but not all western doctors of medicine

 

as I referred to above ... also;

 

http://e-swedenborg.com/tp/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

[Spotless]

Perhaps ... but not all western doctors of medicine

 

as I referred to above ... also;

 

http://e-swedenborg.com/tp/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

Very good!

Exactly my findings as well!

Great to see someone else looking at them from a similar perspective so long ago!

 

However, I stand by my assertion that Western Medical is clueless regarding even a hint of leaning in this direction what so ever.

Even those donned with a PHD are rarely more than lecturers and "people of interest", writing papers about papers regarding paper writers.

 

They are truely all hat and no saddle.

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

We have many filters - your friends way of explaining it was very keen.

 

Repairing them for someone is not particularly difficult and with exercises and disciplines of various sorts complete recovery and much more is possible.

 

Chemical imbalance (inherent) and physiological damage aside, most forms of insanity are very sad and very stuck complex spiritual maladies that can be cured but are often beyond either the scope of those attempting to effect a change to sanity in "the patient" or the patient is too far entangled to allow for the amount of funding and time it takes to bring an unwilling patient back into a state which requires willingness, and then for the slightly willing patient to then proceed long enough to overcome patterns that have become entrenched even though most if not all of the damaged areas have been put back in order.

 

This type of work can only be taught privately or it can be seen at some point by ones own merits.

 

I learned a great deal in looking at epilepsy - it is precisely as I stated above.

 

I had the great fortune once of watching an epileptic seizure take place in slow motion - meaning that I was able to observe the entire process quietly and clairvoyantly over a period of about 45 minutes leading to a complete epileptic fit on the floor of a lunch area. I was able to give immediate and effective action to the person from the moment they began moving toward the floor and ended the seizure as quickly as it had started.

 

The person/spirit to which it had happened was ashtonished to say the least when I brought him back quite forcefully into his body and the crowd was probably pretty bewildered by the bit of exchange the two of us then had.

 

It is possible to shock an insane person's space and hold them for a moment and talk to them as spirit - they are then quite aware they are in a very complex and gluey game and not unlike a kite flying in winds well beyond the flyers capacity to direct things significantly. This can be done in a waking walking space. It is much easier to speak with them as spirit out of their body in a clairvoyant space but is often troubled as well.

 

In the West we are not set up to do this kind of work - in India it is done.

Western medical is entirely clueless to the subtle nature of the problem - and everything they do is counter productive to effecting a movement to well being with the exception of chemical and physiological damage.

 

I find this very fortunate that here in the west we seem mostly limited by the allopathic medicine approach. I have heard about other cultures dealing with such things in very different, and much more healing, ways.

 

As such things are unfortunately quite prevalent, and many do actually suffer in this state, it is unfortunate that we are so limited with the treatments and tools. The west from all I have seen prefers to avoid or even shun people showing such signs, or lock them up safely away.

 

(though how we deal with more physical ailments isn't much better).

[BaguaKicksAss]

Oh thats a good one! This filter also helps us distinguish between imagination and its application in reality; the distinction between memory of an actual event or imagined memory, dreams, movies or images or stories told to us.

 

Its a lot thinner than many realise but has been exposed in recent years where dodgy hypnotherapy has been uncovered, and in some cases, mostly those relating to sexual abuse in the family, has lead to disasterous consequences

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

 

and the actual implanting of those false memories:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201211/implanting-false-memories

 

Definitely interesting.

 

It makes me wonder, so how could we use this to create some positive change?

 

For example "oh I have never been able to talk to people, I just freeze up my entire life" over to adding a change of concept of such memories, having the ones where the person did do very well in such situations being the stronger and more important of the gambit of past memories.... Perhaps not something to mess with, but would be interesting research .

 

I had a time, where I was meditating and doing my practices for several hours per day everyday. I ended up having trouble telling the difference between my dreams and "reality". They sort of meshed and merged; which was real, and which was not, or perhaps both. Needless to say that at that point I decided it was time to go lighter on my practice .

 

That would suck living like that long-term!

[BaguaKicksAss]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255894/Spiritual-people-likely-mentally-ill-think-life-meaning.html

 

So is it that spiritual practices can make folks a bit more unbalanced, or is it that folks who are a bit unbalanced seek out the spiritual (as well as likely many other things) to help set things right?

 

Also, unfortunately, if most people were to tell most Doctors their experiences, for example what we view as pretty common conversation on these forums), they would be prescribed some drugs.

 

Spiritual practices do open up parts of ourselves that we don't usually spend much time with, nor acknowledge. This can lead to problems if done to quickly, without any help (therapist or teacher, or just many random practices from different sources.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I know that a vast majority of local 'spiritual' new age people are on medical antidepressants. The local town's chemist has the highest rate per population of distributing these than any other chemist in the state. And its a calm peaceful beautiful place with beaches, forest, rivers, world heritage national parks, nature , wildlife, good facilities, etc.

 

I get rather urked at them when they go around sprouting their 'together' philosophy, when they are just full of 'surface happy' drugs ... all good and fine, peachy keen sunshine and rainbows .... until one of them kills themself ... which has happened a few times - the last one , who was supposed to cool and popular and to whose real state I tried to inform her friends about, out of concern - but what would I know was found dead, hanged in her wardrobe ... she had been there 6 days before housemates noticed the smell ... they knew she had 'gone somewhere' but didnt think to .... think anything about that .

 

Maybe what is on offer as 'spirituality' isnt working for the times we now live in ? ? ?

 

I think for some, spirituality is used to avoid or mask underlying issues. As are many other things we do in life. It would be interesting to do similar studies on say people who go clubbing all the time, or watch TV 7 days per week... for example.

 

The interesting thing though is that spiritual practices focus around working through such things and in theory should offer relief. I guess it depends on how you go about it. Unfortunately most spiritual practices that one can easily find don't have much of any grounding involved. Also finding an expert to help when one runs into problems, is quite difficult, as many "experts" can make matters worse. I wonder if things go better or worse now that anyone can come onto the internet and ask folks who have been at it quite some time for advice on their practice?

 

When it comes to magic, I have quite often seen that the practices people choose, or the way of going about them just seem to exacerbate what is already going on.

Edited July 26, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[MooNiNite]

dunno if i'd call it insanity, but madness. is usually, from a daoist perspective, not being able to control energies.

[MooNiNite]

i could be more elaborate, but that is kinda risky =D

[BaguaKicksAss]

Perhaps ... but not all western doctors of medicine

 

as I referred to above ... also;

 

http://e-swedenborg.com/tp/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

There are some awesome ones out there, sometimes therapists, psychologists and ... well OK likely not Psychiatrists...... who are open to other realities. Fortunately according to the DSM if something is part of someone's religious practices or beleif, that voids it from being classified as a disorder . (though in very extreme cases I'm sure that would be ignored)

 

Unfortunately though, Doctors can, and some have, loose their license for doing anything out of the standard "normal" and accepted by the medical industry thoughts on such things. Doctors have to be extremely careful what they say to a patient.

[BaguaKicksAss]

dunno if i'd call it insanity, but madness. is usually, from a daoist perspective, not being able to control energies.

 

I like that perspective .

[Nungali]

Definitely interesting.

 

It makes me wonder, so how could we use this to create some positive change?

 

I need a model to help explain it, I find the best one , in this case, to be Exo-psychology.

 

'Filter realities' need to be changed on a deep level; firstly the specific level needs to be identified, within which of the first 4 circuits the issue lies. Then appropriate reprogramming can be done using circuit 6 with the appropriate psycho-active (and set, setting, 'therapist', etc. as well ... unless you are good enough 'magician. to do it yourself ) ... pretty far out but Leary and Lily had success in some USA jails with supposedly 'incurable' nasty and violent criminals ... until the programme got shut down and the researchers driven off, hounded and persecuted (resulting in Leary spending a long time in maximum security prison himself, including solitary confinement on an original charge of having 2 joints in his pocket. )

 

- There is the main danger -

 

 

For example "oh I have never been able to talk to people, I just freeze up my entire life" over to adding a change of concept of such memories, having the ones where the person did do very well in such situations being the stronger and more important of the gambit of past memories.... Perhaps not something to mess with, but would be interesting research .

 

Oh ... 'we' can do that ! Just need to identify where it lies in the psyche and what started it, then re-enact with the appropriate set, setting and psycho-active and reprogramme.

 

I had a time, where I was meditating and doing my practices for several hours per day everyday. I ended up having trouble telling the difference between my dreams and "reality". They sort of meshed and merged; which was real, and which was not, or perhaps both. Needless to say that at that point I decided it was time to go lighter on my practice .

 

I found that one of the great and surprise effects of practicing Liber Resh, 4 times a day, for months on end ( even years) without a break and having at least 1 sleep cycle 'magically interrupted'.

 

I have posted on that in a few other places, which I think you read about, so I wont repeat it here, except to say .... eventually, the concept of identity has to be nutted out and incorporated into one's 'magical unified theory of the Universe and my place in it' - is it me leaving the note in the middle of the night for the unconscious me that cant remember being up late at night ?... or is that the real me and the one that blunders through the day, (not remembering his magically programmed awakened night self) is the illusion ? ... ( or was it really just Apech sneaking in and leaving those notes as he suggested )

 

Some people dont like to talk about this ... it seems to 'crack' their potential Multiple Personality glue .

 

I referenced it again the other day somewhere here and linked to the novel; 'The Strange Profession of Jonathan Hoag'.

 

That would suck living like that long-term!

 

There is an initial difficulty , after a while the filter settles in a different way ... there is not much distinction in certain areas, sometimes that is immensely valuable ! Other times, embarrassing : " Hey, BKA here is that $50 you leant me."

 

"What $50 what are you talking about ... I actually have never met you and live 1/2 a planet away."

 

(Of course, you being a 'clever magician' would just say; thanks ... my paypal account is at .... )

 

But it maintains where it is important ... the system will work it out eventually IF this is from a balanced deliberate process relating to dissolving part of the filter between L and R 'hemispheres' ( the 5th or Neuro - somatic circuit) and not clinical or psychological damage. ... or some hypnotist prick messing with you

 

[Nungali]

So is it that spiritual practices can make folks a bit more unbalanced, or is it that folks who are a bit unbalanced seek out the spiritual (as well as likely many other things) to help set things right?

 

Also, unfortunately, if most people were to tell most Doctors their experiences, for example what we view as pretty common conversation on these forums), they would be prescribed some drugs.

 

Spiritual practices do open up parts of ourselves that we don't usually spend much time with, nor acknowledge. This can lead to problems if done to quickly, without any help (therapist or teacher, or just many random practices from different sources.

 

Yep ... hence the value of a properly staged step by step programme. A valid teacher, system or initiating tradition or 'Order' should well realise that and structure the progress accordingly.

 

Its a rather good idea to learn how to pedal and balance before one races downhill 'no hands' . . . . or starts fiddling with the wires without being an electrician.

[Nungali]

I think for some, spirituality is used to avoid or mask underlying issues. As are many other things we do in life. It would be interesting to do similar studies on say people who go clubbing all the time, or watch TV 7 days per week... for example.

 

The interesting thing though is that spiritual practices focus around working through such things and in theory should offer relief. I guess it depends on how you go about it. Unfortunately most spiritual practices that one can easily find don't have much of any grounding involved. Also finding an expert to help when one runs into problems, is quite difficult, as many "experts" can make matters worse. I wonder if things go better or worse now that anyone can come onto the internet and ask folks who have been at it quite some time for advice on their practice?

 

When it comes to magic, I have quite often seen that the practices people choose, or the way of going about them just seem to exacerbate what is already going on.

 

yep! maybe thats part of our nature? It was mine.

 

You know .... I , myself, used to be great! Fantastic actually. Then I got a teacher and they recommended Liber Resh specifically for me .. HA! What would they know! I am such a Lunar person ... solar meditations just were not my thing.

 

- silly teacher ! ... but I started them anyway. Eventually .... boy did that open a new Universe for me!

 

I have seen potential students deliberately (sort of) do the opposite; a woman, a bit unstable, just starting out in 'magical pre-school' wants to borrow a book from my library "Sure ... that section there has heaps of books on what your recommendation and study programme outline." ... She starts looking them over so I leave her be. Later I notice they are all still there ... ?

 

Later again I realise (of all books ) from a totally different section , the Necronomicon is missing . When I asked if she took it she gets all defensive and abusive about 'restriction' and me trying to control her. within 3 months she was institutionalised.

[Nungali]

i could be more elaborate, but that is kinda risky =D

 

Risky for who ?