Getting terms straight: Negative = detrimental?

[4bsolute]

Kindergarten ABC

 

Basic terminology

 

The term negative. We learn through such holistic concepts like Taoism, that negative is equal to positive. Without the other one would not exist.

 

But then we have such terms like "detrimental" which refer to everything destructive in nature.

 

But then we say "things are negative" when we mean they are destructive. While negativity in essence is not destructive, isn't it?

 

It is difficult to understand and accept that such extremes like war, slaughter and genocide arepossibly in essence negative, while peace and harmony is positive. That straight out can not be (says this young ego structure).

For example, harmony in essence is something greater than simply peace. I (personally) can understand that war only exists when there is peace. Yes and I can understand that this is hard to understand for many individuals. When we say we want peace, we want something greater than simply the opposite of war. We want to understand what lead to war, transform it and uplift our entire existance one octave. Coming in greater cycles where such dualistic principles no longer rule. It's not that you have such extreme constant fluxes like war and peace the entire process back to Tao. They belong here, they might be even more extreme one octave lower in Nature. But they (and nothing in general) trails us, once we have understood it. It's not that we then avoid it forever, it simply bothers us no longer and we can work with it, transform it with ease.

 

How does this apply to the term "negativity" in the larger picture?

Edited July 24, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Nungali]

'negative' = receptive ?

[idiot_stimpy]

I'm not sure but possibly the best I've heard is,

 

Negative - separation

Positive - integration

[GreytoWhite]

Huh... I have never equated negative to detriment in practice. My first teacher was an electrical engineer and my education is in computer hardware and networking so we always treated negative as a polarity of energy without further connotation.

[Nungali]

Isnt negative polarity in electricity a receptive or passive pole and positive a giving out of energy and active pole?

 

If you see negative ' as a polarity of energy without further connotation', then how is it different from positive ?

[4bsolute]

See? That is why I ask. No clear wording but we use these terms so loosely, not really knowing their true meaning

[GrandmasterP]

For any debate to proceed, the participants must first carefully define; in order to agree upon any technical terms.

Hence negativity in relation to and compared to what?

Once we've agreed which 'negative' we are talking about, at that point but not before- then we can begin discussions.

That applies to all slippery concepts and words.

Politicians build careers on imprecise or self-serving 'owned' definitions.

"Welfare" for example.

There's another term with myriad and all self-serving definitions each dependent upon the user thereof.

Edited July 25, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GreytoWhite]

Isnt negative polarity in electricity a receptive or passive pole and positive a giving out of energy and active pole?

 

If you see negative ' as a polarity of energy without further connotation', then how is it different from positive ?

 

Sorry for being vague, yes, there is further connotation but I was referring to morality/emotion/whatever. Of course there are further qualities to the energy that help one understand it.

[GrandmasterP]

A linguistics professor was lecturing her class.

"In the English language," she said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. There is no language, however, wherein a double positive can form a negative."

Just then, a voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right!"

 

 

[Brian]

Uh-huh, sure...

[joeblast]

this is confusing the moon with the finger pointing at it.

 

 

sometimes language has a word that can be used in so many different contexts that unless it is made clear the context, the word doesnt have too specific of a meaning. e.g. how many different uses can one find for the chinese word Yang - english translation, with no ability to bring out the subtle differences via the native "script." its all context.

 

 

the negative polarity (-) has little to do with negative "detrimental"....and if you confuse the context, you're just doing a word jumble in your head.

 

 

 

 

*slap* dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory

[Michael Sternbach]

A linguistics professor was lecturing her class. "In the English language," she said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. There is no language, however, wherein a double positive can form a negative." Just then, a voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right!"

That's an interesting observation. Do you see the parallels with the mathematical use of these terms? A negative number multiplied with another negative number results in a positive number. And a double positive is also still a positive.

 

My own concise definitions in the contexts of physics, biology, and metaphysics:

Negative: Entropy - going from a state of higher to a state of lower order - decay - energy being spent

Positive: Ectropy - going from a state of lower to a state of higher order - build-up - energy being gained

 

Obviously, both forces are needed as there would be no room for new developments without it ever getting cleared by the force of decay. In this sense, positive and negative are both neutral or even "good".

 

But to thus assume that everything is somehow "equally desirable" (as some spiritual seekers are prone to do) is a non sequitur and often serves as a cover-up for indifference, cowardliness, resignation etc.

 

This should eliminate all unambiguities.

 

Cheers,

Michael

[Brian]

I would point out that an imaginary number times a real number is an imaginary number.

[ChiDragon]

See? That is why I ask. No clear wording but we use these terms so loosely, not really knowing their true meaning

 

The term "negative" is an universal term. Each field has its own definition and meaning. As long as one stays within the definition in the field of interest, then, everything will be fine.

Edited July 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

As what definitions we choose to use I reckon that we can all of us recognise 'negative' people those thankfully few times when we're unfortunate enough to have dealings with those.

There are some folks who can suck the joy out of any company and only seem 'happy' if they are bringing down the mood.

Not depressives, those poor folk are poorly .. Just wilfully negative types.

My ex father in law ( RIP) was one such.

The highest praise I ever heard him utter was that something was 'not bad'.

We took him to Batley Variety Club one time for a birthday treat and Charlie Williams ( black guy, old timey ex miner Yorkshire stand up comedian) was the headline act.

People were literally on the floor with laughter.

Father in Law ( we'll call him Albert for that was his real name) sat stony faced throughout sipping a single pint all night and not saying a word.

In the taxi home his missus the ex Mom in Law, still chuckling; says something to the effect that...

" That Charlie Williams is the funniest man I have ever see or heard."

Albert spoke for the first and only time of that evening and gloomily pontificated ....

"Aye, he's alright I suppose. If you like laughing."

Edited July 25, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Daeluin]

Kindergarten ABC

 

Basic math is absolute. Tao is about reading between the lines.

 

People want to see things in black and white, and get way stressed out when stuff isn't presented in black and white terms:

 

 

Basic terminology

 

 

The term negative. We learn through such holistic concepts like Taoism, that negative is equal to positive. Without the other one would not exist.

 

yin

yang

 

negative

positive

 

heavy

light

 

earth

heaven

 

Earth in terms of tao tends to represent things that attach to self and other. Our bodies are Earthly on an Earthly planet. As opposed to the working of Heaven which operate more like light, changing without attachment when invited to. Our minds and spirits are Heavenly.

 

Between Heaven and Earth things have properties of both Heaven and Earth. Our minds can act like light, or compose and fixate on attachments of understanding. Our bodies and organs, muscles, tendons, bones have physical mass, but are also merged with processes of flow and change.

 

But then we have such terms like "detrimental" which refer to everything destructive in nature.

 

bad

good

 

detrimental

benign

 

backward

forward

 

Then we have Change. Direction forward in time. Evaluation of what something was before and after change.

 

But then we say "things are negative" when we mean they are destructive. While negativity in essence is not destructive, isn't it?

 

This is an interesting exploration on the merging of dimensional polarities.

 

One might think we're just bad at math and that we lump polarities of one dimension with polarities of another dimension, and thus we lump bad, heavy, negative and detrimental all into the same boat.

 

And it does add up, in some ways:

 

In general, when something changes in our life and results in a "bad" feeling, we tend to feel depressed, heavy, sinking, more attachment oriented energies. Conversely, when something changes and results in a "good" feeling, we tend to feel lighter, less attached, more expansive energies.

 

Earthly polarity is self-other related, and mathematically is oriented to oppositional forces that tend to clash with one another, right angles, squares. Mass forms new mass when it shatters against other mass under pressure. The Heavenly side of this polarity is more harmony related, but - in the principle - without preference for keeping its shape, and is oriented towards non-oppositional angles like triangles and circles.

 

As we experience more "good" changes, we to follow the principle of Heaven more. As we experience more "bad" changes we follow the principle of Earth more.

 

It is difficult to understand and accept that such extremes like war, slaughter and genocide are possibly in essence negative, while peace and harmony is positive. That straight out can not be (says this young ego structure).

 

Life is the harmonious balance between the principles of Heaven and Earth. War, slaughter and genocide take things strongly in the direction of Earthly principle, and in the end we our left with a lot more mass without life.

 

 

For example, harmony in essence is something greater than simply peace.

 

Yes, simply taking things to the extreme Heavenly direction would result in no identity or ability to self-change. This what happens when we lose our Earthly body and die, becoming trapped by karma without being able to change it until we reincarnate. Depending on how balanced the subtle energies are when we lose our form, that is.

 

 

I (personally) can understand that war only exists when there is peace. Yes and I can understand that this is hard to understand for many individuals. When we say we want peace, we want something greater than simply the opposite of war. We want to understand what lead to war, transform it and uplift our entire existance one octave. Coming in greater cycles where such dualistic principles no longer rule. It's not that you have such extreme constant fluxes like war and peace the entire process back to Tao. They belong here, they might be even more extreme one octave lower in Nature. But they (and nothing in general) trails us, once we have understood it. It's not that we then avoid it forever, it simply bothers us no longer and we can work with it, transform it with ease.

 

It needs balance. Balance of Heaven and Earth, Yang and Yin. Balance of the Five Phases.

 

Too much Earth and we create stagnation and kill life. The Earthly principle is about attachment, and thus has trouble adapting to change. But with out change and adaptation we cling to patterns that bring security and expect them to persist unchanging... but of course they never do.

 

Too much Heaven and we don't overcome challenges and can't survive within the Earthly side of things, and also die. The Heavenly principle easily flows with change, but on it's own is just an ideal in the imagination, without being grounded and manifested INTO life.

 

The ideal of "make love, not war" is great, but follows the Heavenly principle. To manifest it into reality requires a lot of hard work. The Balance of the Five Phases can really help with this.

 

 

Water (jing) is Earthly when Compared with Fire (shen), which is Heavenly.

Water desires to create and fire follows its lead.

 

Metal (po) is Earthly when Compared with Wood (hun), which is Heavenly.

Metal sense, withdraws, constricts, controls, stiffens, while wood grows, expands, arouses, vibrates.

 

In a holistic system, the phase of Earth holds them all together, not letting the denser phases get too rigid to support life, and not letting the looser phases scatter beyond being able to support life. Earth holds water up, gives metal a place to contract while still maintaining a dynamic relationship, gives Wood a place to plant roots, and gives fire the ability to manifest ideas into physicality.

 

But in terms of Humanity and Virtue, the phase of Earth represents Sincerity, Integrity, that which holds all else in balance, the intention to keep things balanced. Truth.

 

When wisdom (water) is based on truthfulness, he says, knowledge (metal) is not used randomly; you are free from greed and ambition, your mind (fire) is peaceful and its energy is harmonious. Then you are pleased with reality and produce courtesy from within wisdom. When courtesy is based on wisdom, you can harmonize with those unlike yourself and you do not do anything discourteous; impatience sublimates, so that you no longer become angry but instead become just.

 

When justice (metal) is based on courtesy (fire), you are just without bias, able to adapt to changes while following guidelines in your actions. Then you delight in good and develop kindness (wood). When kindness is based on justice, you are kind without being weak, as good as possible, without evil, sincerely whole-hearted, without duplicity. Then you are free from selfish desires and are therefore truthful.

 

When truthfulness is based on kindness, forming the final link in the circle, you are steadfast and unwavering; true will appears, and wandering attention quiets down. Celestial and mundane intentions combine, so that you can be joyful, angry, sad, or pleased, all without selfish desire.

 

Here Liu Yiming describes the controlling cycle of the Five Phases in terms of Yin (Earthly Principle) Expressions (desire, impatience, bias, anger, duplicity) and Yang (Heavenly Principle) Expressions (wisdom, courtesy, unbiased justice, kindness, truthful). The Yin Expressions in the controlling cycle lead to separation, while the Yang Expressions lead to unity.

 

 

How does this apply to the term "negativity" in the larger picture?

 

In terms of War and Peace, a lot of solutions are very serious and scientific minded about it, which is the Metal phase. Metal tends towards negativity all on it's own, though black and white proclamations of right and wrong, oversensitivity which leads to bias and reaction, and placing rules and regulations around situations such that they become so constricted there is only built up pressure. Metal has an important role in arriving at Peace, but more from setting frameworks that support freedom of expression and change. The USA "Declaration of Independence" is such an example of the use of Metal to support non-negativity, but without understanding the principle of Metal, now this grand Declaration has had many additional restrictions welded onto it.

 

As the Metal phase is inherently denser, it follows the Earthly principle more than the Heavenly principle. As we've (hopefully) seen, the Earthly principle is inherently related to negativity in the sense of removing nourishment of life over the course of change.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Daeluin

[GrandmasterP]

Well if all that gets one through the day then it's possibly useful to some.

'How to' diagrams tend to work best in colour and on paper though.

Real life's a tad 'messier'.

Edited July 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Daeluin]

Yeah blueprints follow the Heavenly principle, and to be of any worth need to manifest their yang into yin. Personally this framework is much simpler to me than most, and when following it in real life has application everywhere. Just takes some practice at phase discernment.

[Bearded Dragon]

Like every case of potential you cannot form any reasonable rationale without a reference point. In the case of the examples given the reference point is yourself. Killing creates impurities in the body therefore it's negative. Peace and harmony does not. In terms of purification and self-refinement it would clearly be detrimental to form impurities. My guess is that once you HAVE liberation then the reference point can shift and the reference of "yourself" no longer exists and hence the negativity is not what it once was. Perhaps.