Lama Dorje

[Cameron]

If the rockstar of kunlun desire to speaketh upon this great and interesting question so be it.

 

The LB shall remain in the state of clueless dopey blissiness.

 

namaste

[Ian]

I have a couple of questions for Chris/mantra if he would be so kind.

 

Firstly, I had a look at the book and the level one sitting practice. One thing I don't get is the raising of the heels. It seems to me, and I readily confess I'm no expert, that this makes it all less grounded and maybe pushes energy up through the kidney meridian. Can you say anything about what the purpose of raising the heels is and how it works?

 

Secondly, and I realise this may be like a fish asking about the finer points of running, I'm curious to know how bliss leads to/is connected with awakening/enlightenment/karmic release/whatever it is we're all after. Do people not get attached to blissful states and then go to bliss realms and fail to cultivate? Or are there safeguards against that?

 

In fact I'd love to know what bliss actually is. Is it a consequence of open channels and kind of physiological? Is it appreciation, desirelessness? Is there a difference?

 

Anyway, glad the bums had a good one, will check Max out if he comes to England. Good luck to all.

[Cameron]

Alright.

 

I am feeling compelled to just touch on one point and then I won't post for..well..atleast the rest of the week.

 

There is what I percieve to be major difference in Kunlun and other "Taoist systems" we have learned about.

 

One of those Taoist systems is the one our friend Pietro studies in.

 

Max said the first night at the bookstore. And he made a point to repeat this to me.

 

In Kunlun you do not focus on your blocks.

 

Max said when you focus on your blocks, you make them worse.

 

Quite, quite different from what I know of other "Taoist systems".

 

So. Without turning this into some kind of battle of methodoligies. I won't partake in them, do what you want to. Here is my take.

 

We all have blocks. I personally have quite horrible ones. What some other systems teach is to focus on a block. Then either use the mind to focus and move energy through them(microcosmic orbit) or "dissolve them from ice to water to gas"(water path/BK Frantzis).

 

From the perspective of Kunlun it feels to me both of these paths are rather off track. In Kunlun, you learn a simple, effortless, easy posture. This posture seems to just do everything.

 

The only thing that seems to be required is to surrender and let go to the experience.

 

It is a very natural path. It seems it is a path of allowing.

 

I don't know how it works. Of course that would be interesting to learn about. But the way I see it most guys(including myself) are very disconnected and too mentally focused. Like, after I had my little experience at the workshop people were coming up to me like "Cameron, what did you think about your experience".

 

It's the same thing on this board. Too much in the head.

 

I also find it interesting the remarks of so called Taoist from heavily male dominated lineages on this method. They havent practiced it. They don't know Max. Yet they are all too ready and willing to apply there own systems narrow male dominated methodolgies to a path that was found by a teenage girl.

 

Read the book people. There is a different energy connected to this lineage.

 

Ok..that's all from me for now. Peace and blessings.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Cameron

[joeblast]

I have a couple of questions for Chris/mantra if he would be so kind.

 

Firstly, I had a look at the book and the level one sitting practice. One thing I don't get is the raising of the heels. It seems to me, and I readily confess I'm no expert, that this makes it all less grounded and maybe pushes energy up through the kidney meridian. Can you say anything about what the purpose of raising the heels is and how it works?

 

Secondly, and I realise this may be like a fish asking about the finer points of running, I'm curious to know how bliss leads to/is connected with awakening/enlightenment/karmic release/whatever it is we're all after. Do people not get attached to blissful states and then go to bliss realms and fail to cultivate? Or are there safeguards against that?

 

In fact I'd love to know what bliss actually is. Is it a consequence of open channels and kind of physiological? Is it appreciation, desirelessness? Is there a difference?

 

Anyway, glad the bums had a good one, will check Max out if he comes to England. Good luck to all.

Ian, my take on the heels I can reference chia's cultivating male sexual energy - that was one tip he suggested to use while urinating in order to engage the kidney channels more. After wizzing on my toes (not literally ) for a month or so, it definitely does do just that. Relating that to kunlun 1, it doesnt sem like there's much focus on grounding in that stage and its more about activation, of sorts.

#2...as I understand, bliss is an ambiguous word, but to be living in the moment, free from attachment or emotional distractions...that sounds pretty blissful to me You must be free from the garbage before you can begin to be enlightened.

imho,

Dan

[三江源]

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Edited March 7, 2015 by 三江源

[gendao]

Secondly, and I realise this may be like a fish asking about the finer points of running, I'm curious to know how bliss leads to/is connected with awakening/enlightenment/karmic release/whatever it is we're all after. Do people not get attached to blissful states and then go to bliss realms and fail to cultivate? Or are there safeguards against that?

 

In fact I'd love to know what bliss actually is. Is it a consequence of open channels and kind of physiological? Is it appreciation, desirelessness? Is there a difference?

This is purely intellectual speculation since I haven't experienced the bliss myself yet...

 

But, I believe we seek the Source.

The root of the grapevine.

The fountainhead of the stream.

The empty mother of all forms.

 

When you want the purest, truest, unadulterated reality, we always seek the source.

Behind the masks.

Behind the manifestations.

Before the degeneration.

 

I think when you find the ultimate truth, everything else suddenly becomes trivial. As does all the drama, attached importance and suffering to them. Finally, you get the "Cosmic Joke." Ignorance is not bliss. Finding the light creating all the shadow play is naturally blissful. And not just intellectually, but in reality. Only when you feel it, have you actually found and done it. That's why alchemical meditation works on opening the energetic body as well as the mind. Because simply knowing is not enough.

 

Knowing is not doing. Feeling is doing (in the metaphysical world).

 

As Cameron said - I think keys to this practice are letting go and feeling. This makes it a particularly good challenge for me - who fears giving up control and am often stuck in my head. Whereas, I have to learn to trust the universe (more than my own limited ego) and feel. Women do tend to have a big natural advantage here.

 

But again, perhaps I have over-thought and said too much. As Bruce Lee said:

Don't think...feeeeel!

Edited September 26, 2007 by vortex

[Pietro]

Pietro,

You don't really know enough about Max and this situation to speak on it. So why bother?

I said nothing about the practice, because I know nothing of that practice. But I do know that unless you are learning inside a tradition you are betting your ass. Now, this guy comes and teaches a bliss practice. Ok, fair enough. Is he inside a tradition? Was he given permission to teach? If he had, good. If he hadn't we are betting our bums on him. This is what I am saying, not very hard to grasp, even for you. Do I have authority to say that if he cannot produce an approval from an external authority, something that has withstanded many generations, producing enlightened individuals along the way, we are just betting our bums? Oh yes I do. Because it is not based on experience but on logic. And my authority comes from my understanding of logic. Fairly simple.

 

Trunk, thank you very much your account; really adds to the reading of the situation and it seems a reasonable version, grounded and balanced. As well as a good explenation of what is going on.

[Pietro]

Additionally, I have been very courteous to people like Pietro and others

yep, being courteous is not the way to go with me. As soon as I feel that your heart is not in what you are saying I take it as sleaziness. I just value truth more than good manners. I suppose is a matter of priorities.

 

The fear they project is unfounded and simply a projection of their own minds.

I personally have a friend who has been istitutionalised because of doing the wrong meditations. Now you might claim that they istutionalised the wrong person, but the truth is that people do get crazy by practicing the wrong thing. Oh, yes, a friend of a friend of mine threw herself from a tower. Shit happens.

 

Either you know something or you don't. Why pretend?

This is false. There are many level in between and many complex concepts where you might know some things and not others. Similarly a person can be able to put you in bliss, and then ignore what to do when things go wrong. I know logic, and I know my experience, and I know that some practices are dangerous, and I have had direct experience of bliss. (Of course it is different from the divine bliss that only Your teacher can induce, I would never dare to say otherwise). I know for example that bliss often comes from rising energy. I know that rising energy is generally dangerouse if you don't have a strong enough downward flow. I know that putting your weight on the ball of the foot tend to rise the energy. I have done taoist meditation for some years, and you want it or not, there are often many elements in common. Among them the channels used are often similar. The danger and the pits where one can fall are often similar too. For this reason I could so easily relate to Trunk experience. In short I reckon I know enough to make an educated guess of the dangers involved, and the bets that a bum might be up to in the long run. If you don't like it, don't read me. And by god, don't pretend to be courteous to win my simpathy.

[portcraig]

I am glad that a lot of the "logical" people do want to attend the seminars with Max because they are getting pretty crowded. The first one had about 20 people and the next one about 60 people. Lots of people are telling their friends of their good experiences and the seminars are getting larger each time. Perhaps the next one will have over 100 people. My wife is never interested in spiritual things but after attending the lecture with Max she told me that she wanted to attend the next workshop.

 

It is interesting to me how the real intellectual people have a problem with Max. They need to have everything fit into a nice box so it fits their expectations. The teacher has to belong to this lineage or that lineage and teach in a certain way. Don't they always say you need to have a child like mind to enter the kingdom of heaven? The real intellectual people have a problem with this.

 

All I know is that it works for me, and it seems to be also working for a lot of other persons. Of course it is not going to be right for everyone because we all need to find the path which is right for ourselves. Craig

[joeblast]

yep, being courteous is not the way to go with me. As soon as I feel that your heart is not in what you are saying I take it as sleaziness. I just value truth more than good manners. I suppose is a matter of priorities.

I personally have a friend who has been istitutionalised because of doing the wrong meditations. Now you might claim that they istutionalised the wrong person, but the truth is that people do get crazy by practicing the wrong thing. Oh, yes, a friend of a friend of mine threw herself from a tower. Shit happens.

This is false. There are many level in between and many complex concepts where you might know some things and not others. Similarly a person can be able to put you in bliss, and then ignore what to do when things go wrong. I know logic, and I know my experience, and I know that some practices are dangerous, and I have had direct experience of bliss. (Of course it is different from the divine bliss that only Your teacher can induce, I would never dare to say otherwise). I know for example that bliss often comes from rising energy. I know that rising energy is generally dangerouse if you don't have a strong enough downward flow. I know that putting your weight on the ball of the foot tend to rise the energy. I have done taoist meditation for some years, and you want it or not, there are often many elements in common. Among them the channels used are often similar. The danger and the pits where one can fall are often similar too. For this reason I could so easily relate to Trunk experience. In short I reckon I know enough to make an educated guess of the dangers involved, and the bets that a bum might be up to in the long run. If you don't like it, don't read me. And by god, don't pretend to be courteous to win my simpathy.

Pietro, it sounds like you are splitting hairs. You havent really said anything substantiative other than continually questioning lineages and who authorized Max to teach.

Manners are a gesture of good will toward the other party - you come across as placing no weight on this at all. Noone is being courteous to you with the intent of 'winning your sympathy.' You're not seeing honesty and goodwill at its face value! FWIW...

Edited September 26, 2007 by joeblast

[三江源]

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Edited March 7, 2015 by 三江源

[gendao]

I know for example that bliss often comes from rising energy. I know that rising energy is generally dangerouse if you don't have a strong enough downward flow. I know that putting your weight on the ball of the foot tend to rise the energy.

Well, Max said that qigongers who leave energy in their head are the ones who can go funny..

 

That's why this meditation (and many others) is concluded by returning all energy to your dantien area.

 

I also feel this practice is inherently on the safer side since it's about letting things happen, not forcing them to. It is a Yin water path. So worst case, I figure simply basically nothing happens. I mean, how dangerous is sitting in a chair doing nothing?

Edited September 26, 2007 by vortex

[三江源]

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Edited March 7, 2015 by 三江源

[Cameron]

Hehe...

 

I just realized for me not to post I should just avoid logging on. I read something and then it's like I have to say something.

 

I asked Max about closing down, returning energy down to earth etc.

 

He basically said that in the practice of Kunlun the energy starts to go where it needs to go. It goes down when it needs to go down etc.

 

Then I asked him about standing meditation/yiquan. He said yiquan is very good.

 

So as a safety valve fopr myself I will probably be combining Kunlun with some yiquan(though Max didn't say it is necissary and probably isn't)

 

The Red Phoenix practice he teaches at the workshop is another animal. You need to bring energy down after doing that one.

 

Hope that is atleast a little helpful.

 

ps. If Chris would like to clarify any of what I wrote there that would be more than welcome.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Cameron

[sunshine]

I mean, how dangerous is sitting in a chair doing nothing?

 

This is the worst

[joeblast]

Pietro is right. Wrong practice is very dangerous.

I did fail to acknowledge that bit...

[mantis]

cameron and the other max group seem to be like the disciples of jesus and pietro being the roman empire. as for me, i am with cameron and the others. if it works for you then it works for you and that's it. everyone has a different way of approaching enlightenment, which is why there is no set recipe or guarantee you will become enlightened. it is the way of the skeptic, pietro's approach that is. you must verify and calculate everything when in the end there is nothing to verify or calculate - everything simply is.

[VeeCee]

This is the worst

 

Uh oh - I'm in trouble then because sitting is my favorite form of cultivation (next to sleeping).

[sunshine]

Uh oh - I'm in trouble then because sitting is my favorite form of cultivation (next to sleeping).

 

I share with you the sleeping one... and I am actually a master of it

 

by the way: what's up with calling you late for dinner?

 

Edited September 26, 2007 by sunshine

[Trunk]

Me, Max, SeanD, Cam after a nice lunch on Sunday.

[三江源]

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Edited March 7, 2015 by 三江源

[VeeCee]

by the way: what's up with calling you late for dinner?

 

It's just an old joke. It basically means I answer to pretty much anything.

Edited September 26, 2007 by VeeCee

[Trunk]

Trunk, you must be Sean Connery.

Thanks for the props, but I listed us faithfully, left to right:

I'm the dweeby guy with the glasses.

[Mantra68]

I have a couple of questions for Chris/mantra if he would be so kind.

 

Firstly, I had a look at the book and the level one sitting practice. One thing I don't get is the raising of the heels. It seems to me, and I readily confess I'm no expert, that this makes it all less grounded and maybe pushes energy up through the kidney meridian. Can you say anything about what the purpose of raising the heels is and how it works?

 

Secondly, and I realise this may be like a fish asking about the finer points of running, I'm curious to know how bliss leads to/is connected with awakening/enlightenment/karmic release/whatever it is we're all after. Do people not get attached to blissful states and then go to bliss realms and fail to cultivate? Or are there safeguards against that?

 

In fact I'd love to know what bliss actually is. Is it a consequence of open channels and kind of physiological? Is it appreciation, desirelessness? Is there a difference?

 

Anyway, glad the bums had a good one, will check Max out if he comes to England. Good luck to all.

Hey Ian,

Lifting the heels allows the legs to activate. After they are active the energy can move up.

 

I wouldn't say you get attached to the blissful state, it is just very apparent when you have moved away from it. Fortunately it is easy to activate your Kunlun and get right back to balance and emptiness.

 

There is no thought in Kunlun. The bliss is a feeling which when experienced leads to a knowing. After living at the higher vibration one will start to experience some unique things.

[Mantra68]

yep, being courteous is not the way to go with me. As soon as I feel that your heart is not in what you are saying I take it as sleaziness. I just value truth more than good manners. I suppose is a matter of priorities.

I personally have a friend who has been istitutionalised because of doing the wrong meditations. Now you might claim that they istutionalised the wrong person, but the truth is that people do get crazy by practicing the wrong thing. Oh, yes, a friend of a friend of mine threw herself from a tower. Shit happens.

This is false. There are many level in between and many complex concepts where you might know some things and not others. Similarly a person can be able to put you in bliss, and then ignore what to do when things go wrong. I know logic, and I know my experience, and I know that some practices are dangerous, and I have had direct experience of bliss. (Of course it is different from the divine bliss that only Your teacher can induce, I would never dare to say otherwise). I know for example that bliss often comes from rising energy. I know that rising energy is generally dangerouse if you don't have a strong enough downward flow. I know that putting your weight on the ball of the foot tend to rise the energy. I have done taoist meditation for some years, and you want it or not, there are often many elements in common. Among them the channels used are often similar. The danger and the pits where one can fall are often similar too. For this reason I could so easily relate to Trunk experience. In short I reckon I know enough to make an educated guess of the dangers involved, and the bets that a bum might be up to in the long run. If you don't like it, don't read me. And by god, don't pretend to be courteous to win my simpathy.

I am not interested in your sympathy and I don't appreciate the way you talk to our friend Cameron. Your apologetic, condescending tone rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Nasty and arrogant.

 

Also, your fears are unfounded. This practice awakens the bliss, but it is the cooling downward flow as source. Not Kundalini.

 

We are dealing with more of a magnetic energy.

 

Additionally, Max does not "cause" you to feel bliss, it is self generated, self allowed, and self enlightenment follows. It is you and Tao.

 

Your teacher must be very patient with you.