Lama Dorje

[C T]

 

Are you asking CT to be even remotely consistent??

 

Good luck with that.

consistency does not exist. its a mind-trap.

[Owledge]

consistency does not exist. its a mind-trap.

A response like this indicates YOU are in a mind trap.

[C T]

A response like this indicates YOU are in a mind trap.

Really?

 

If consistency is real, you cannot even have a basis to draw such a conclusion.

[Yascra]

consistency does not exist. its a mind-trap.

 

Yepp, that's one of those dangerous aspects.

Common sense tells you that usually, if someone says one thing and then completely contradicts him- or herself this person is dishonest.

In spirituality you always have the excuse that we are all buddhas, and whoever is lying or behaving badly in another way is just using "skillful means", or that things like being consistent concerning the things you state are for those in "lower paths" or stuff like that.

Rubbish.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Yascra

[Owledge]

Yepp, that's one of those dangerous aspects.

Common sense tells you that usually, if someone says one thing and then completely contradicts him- or herself this person is dishonest.

In spirituality you always have the excuse that we are all buddhas, and whoever is lying or behaving badly in another way is just using "skillful means", or that things like being consistent concerning the things you state are for those in "lower paths" or stuff like that.

Rubbish.

There is an animated video I was reminded of that described this universal invalidating of arguments quite well, since apparently it is a widespread phenomenon. I can't find it right now, it had a title like "The Dharma Trap", but probably not exactly that.

[C T]

Yepp, that's one of those dangerous aspects.

Common sense tells you that usually, if someone says one thing and then completely contradicts him- or herself this person is dishonest.

In spirituality you always have the excuse that we are all buddhas, and whoever is lying or behaving badly in another way is just using "skillful means", or that things like being consistent concerning the things you state are for those in "lower paths" or stuff like that.

Rubbish.

if common sense is such a reliable yardstick, this world would be paradise now.

[Yascra]

if common sense is such a reliable yardstick, this world would be paradise now.

 

Anyway it's a problem if you declare that "lying is okay, as in absolute reality truth doesn't exist".

But well, maybe you're working in a system in which virtue is not estimated as worthwhile, such things do happen.

 

The mistake in this way of thinking is that karma indeed does affect even Buddhas. So one has to set priorities.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

Yepp, that's one of those dangerous aspects.

Common sense tells you that usually, if someone says one thing and then completely contradicts him- or herself this person is dishonest.

In spirituality you always have the excuse that we are all buddhas, and whoever is lying or behaving badly in another way is just using "skillful means", or that things like being consistent concerning the things you state are for those in "lower paths" or stuff like that.

Rubbish.

Sure, one has to be consistent in keeping to one's principles and values, that's a given.

 

But 'consistence' as a basis for how things are, on a macro/micro level, is an illusion. Everything is changing, every millisecond.

 

If consistency is prevalent, there is no need for adaptation. If there is no need for adaptation, you and i are already perfect. Why waste time here, talking nonsense?

[C T]

Anyway it's a problem if you declare that "lying is okay, as in absolute reality truth doesn't exist".

But well, maybe you're working in a system in which virtue is not estimated as worthwhile, such things do happen.

 

The mistake in this way of thinking is that karma indeed does affect even Buddhas. So one has to set priorities.

i dont recall ever making such a declaration.

[Yascra]

Sure, one has to be consistent in keeping to one's principles and values, that's a given.

 

I'd like to read your answer to #773 by Tibetan_Ice considering this.

[C T]

I'd like to read your answer to #773 by Tibetan_Ice considering this.

its difficult to respond to disingenuous posters.

[Yascra]

its difficult to respond to disingenuous posters.

 

Do you know each other extremely well or what made you conclude he or she is disingenuous?

Edited February 7, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

Do you know each other extremely well or what made you conclude he's disingenuous?

Did you not detect the condescending tone in his opening?

 

A sincere dialog does not begin by assuming the person already has all their concepts neatly boxed up. Since such a presumption has already been made, is further engagement necessary, or simply a waste of time?

 

you can draw your own conclusions however you please.

Edited February 7, 2014 by C T

[Yascra]

Did you not detect the condescending tone in his opening?

 

A sincere dialog does not begin by assuming the person already has all their concepts neatly boxed up. Since such a presumption has already been made, is further engagement necessary, or simply a waste of time?

 

you can draw your own conclusions however you please.

Sure, noticed that. But on the one hand I already had one experience with you in which you were very fast in drawing conclusions, on the other hand it might not necessarily be a waste of time. You state a genuine teacher acts in a certain way, Tibetan_Ice argues that two teachers to whom you might have some kind of a connection did behave in ways that undermine that some kind of cruelty, harshness and roughness were obviously very present in their behaviour.

 

You might call me disingenuous as well, but I think Tibetan_Ice definitely has a point there, so I'd like to ask you how you manage to bring this behaviour in accordance to your view of what you state should be charasterics of a good teacher.

You can't deny it's contradictive, at least to some extent.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

Sure, noticed that. But on the one hand I already had one experience with you in which you were very fast in drawing conclusions, on the other hand it might not necessarily be a waste of time. You state a genuine teacher acts in a certain way, Tibetan_Ice argues that two teachers to whom you might have some kind of a connection did behave in ways that undermine that some kind of cruelty, harshness and roughness were obviously very present in their behaviour.

 

You might call me disingenuous as well, but I think Tibetan_Ice definitely has a point there, so I'd like to ask you how you manage to bring this behaviour in accordance to your view of what you state should be charasterics of a good teacher.

You can't deny it's contradictive, at least to some extent.

Good point.

 

There are many, many accounts (or stories) in the Tibetan tradition of how devotion develops between disciple and master. If we were to discuss a subject pertaining to, say, loving kindness and compassion, would it not make more sense to draw from more appropriated accounts, of which there are scores and scores of them, rather than pick one that is, on the surface, completely in contradistinction to the subject matter, and then.... and then, as if seizing a perfect opportunity, go, "Hah! suck that, dude. I stumped you!!"

 

Alternatively, if someone wants to highlight that not all Tibetan masters, or buddhist teachers in general, demonstrate wisdom and compassion in ways we can fully comprehend, or expect, and the reasons why this is so (which is pretty obvious, btw), then i would be quite open to understanding why such an observation was made, and may even be able to engage such a line of questioning.

 

In modern day living, Loving kindness and compassion are very active principles in which the primary objectives are targeted at dissolving ego-clinging, not so much for baby-sitting and spending hours listening to students' woes or answering begrudging emails telling of the difficulties and challenges since the day they began to take refuge with the guru.

 

Guru yoga is a practice only few Westerners will want to engage in. But without it, a very fundamental aspect of Vajrayana will be missing. However, its not that massive an issue. There are other traditions to discover, where this factor of the practice is less emphasized, or not at all. There is no need for everyone to enjoy the same flavours, the same dishes, the same desserts.

 

Is that fair enough for you?

[Yascra]

Is that fair enough for you?

Guess so ;-)

 

Nice answer, thanks. I for my part would have added some grains of criticism, but fits well

[C T]

Guess so ;-) Nice answer, thanks. I for my part would have added some grains of criticism, but fits well

a well-worded question deserves attention.

[Yascra]

a well-worded question deserves attention.

Oh. Keep calm anyway

Greetings

Edited February 7, 2014 by Yascra

[RongzomFan]

rather than pick one that is, on the surface, completely in contradistinction to the subject matter

 

 

But you yourself just recently mentioned such crazy yogis in another thread:

 

Slaps, spitting in people's faces, and other practices deemed preposterous are all common tales which tell how ill omens and bad luck have been deflected from the ones at the receiving end. Such are the nature of their blessings, in accordance with their wisdom.

[RongzomFan]

its difficult to respond to disingenuous posters.

Yes it is

[zen-bear]

Honestly, I don't know why I bother !

I live in the same locality as Mr. Peter Young (Yeung, Dr, Sifu, Professor, Lama), or whatever he chooses to call himself these days. He is well-known as a bully, liar, fraud, cheat and con-man. The only titles he has are the ones he's made up for himself. He has no authority to teach, either martially or religiously.

He has limited skill, at best. The only skill he has is that he's an expert on hoodwinking gullible students.

But hey, don't just take my word for it:

 

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13442

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=9597

http://tibetanaltar.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/tibetan-buddhist-cults-run-amok.html

http://thetaobums.com/topic/23785-lama-dondrup-dorje/

http://thetaobums.com/topic/4088-lama-dorje-number-two/page-2

adept,

Thanks for the links and clarification. I have no direct knowledge of nor experience with Buddhist groups in the UK or Europe. I am aware of the Buddhist schools in the U.S. to some extent, as I am friends and collaborator with a fine filmmaker David Cherniack in Toronto, Canada who has done doc's on American Buddhist movement (and various schisms, etc.) and also has direct access to the Dalai Lama, who permitted him to do several films on Tibetan Buddhism, including the "Oracle", for which he was allowed to film the state oracles of Tibet, including the Neichung Oracle. (at www.allinonefilms.com)

 

Hmmm, the number of negative reports does seem to indicate that there may be some cult intent and methods employed over there at Pathgate. And no working links to the late Penor Rinpoche's org is also brow-raising. Teaching martial arts is one thing, but teaching Tibetan Buddhism in full regalia as a lama completely unsanctioned--if what you and the other protestors say are true-- is something that I thought no one in their right mind would do. For I understand there are karmic consequences for profaning the dharma as there all in all monastic spiritual traditions.

 

(5) to preach religion and not practise it is to be lot a parrot saying a prayer; and this is a grievous failure.

(6) The giving in alms and charity of things obtained by theft, robbery, or deceit, is like lightning striking the surface of water; and this is a grievous failure.

(9) Performing meritorious actions in order merely to attain fame and praise in this world is like bartering the mystic wish-granting gem for a pellet of goat's dung; and this is a grievous failure.

(7) Seeing that unfaithfulness to the religious vows will result in one's going to the miserable states of existence, it is useless to have entered the Order if one live not a holy life.

-- from Precepts of the Guru's in "Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines" by W.Y. Evans-Wentz

 

Perhaps the Mahayana vehicle is too wide in this respect and is in need of policing. But karma will do its ineluctable reckoning just the same. At any rate, I'll pass on the info and question my student and friend a bit more about his experience.

 

ZB

Edited February 8, 2014 by zen-bear

[zen-bear]

Because of misdirected motives, i guess. Karma and ignorance begins to roll at that level, even before any 'doing' takes place. The prevalent mind states just prior to taking any action are the main causes for the accruement of karma and its perpetuation, not just the action itself.

Of course the mental and emotional states that motivate action are what generates karma--in this case, karma of the very long, aeonic, suffering kind.

 

The karmic consequences for falling under the control of a phoney guru using cult psychological methods--and giving up one's free will-- are indeed severe and grave--and go far beyond the wasting of time and energy believing in false and perverse doctrines and emulating the charlatan. It can be a ticket to hell.

 

But as to why people go in for cults, the basic answer is that they need to--out of a psychological addiction. Due to a real or imagined deficiency or inadequacy--the feeling that something's missing (usually, the idealized version of the absent or non-demonstrative father--or mother)--and the identification with "the guru" as the fully- satiating provider of what is believed and felt to be missing. The power of psychological addiction is great and is just short of that of chemical addiction (e.g., to opiates). Manipulated by a diabolical mind, it can be very, very dangerous and deadly--as Jonestown, the Branch Davidian (David Koresh), and Hail Bopp cult (aka, "Heaven's Gate"--the most bizarre and weakest-ass nonsense ever to cause people to give up on life--and yet the most deadly mass suicide in American history (41 deaths)--in Rancho Santa Fe, California in) are tragic testaments to. The genocides and war atrocities committed by the Nazi's in Europe and the Japanese throughout Asia during WWII; Cambodia; Iraq (ag. the Kurds); recently in Ruwanda; and the readiness of the country of North Korea to do the same to its neighbors is the same phenomenon on a more massive scale.

 

**Then there have also been interesting studies in America on cult participants that found that the average stay organized cults for most people was a little over 3 years, and that most of these short-timers were in their late teens, 20's, and early 30's and needed the cult as a transition to exit from their family systems. So as to why some people need to follow a cult leader--even a disreputable one, one answer is to get closure on an adolescent, pre-adult stage of development. One last stab and trying to "learn" from the "perfect parent."

 

One of the very best (and inadvertant) studies of cult phenomenon is a very hard-to-find film titled "Ashram", which was made by a German filmmaker in the late 1970's or early 1980's who was a devoted follower of of the deceased bagwan sri rajneesh (latest commercial resurrection is "Osho", btw) but who, when he finally completed the film, realized that the film record he made of the guru's manifested "teachings" at Rajneeshpuram, was a terrifying picture of sheer bedlam--a stunning and irrefutable indictment of a pernicious cult leader, filled with unfathomable depths of anger at and contempt towards people (I recall the film showed "mass therapy sessions where dozens of couples sitting naked on muddy ground playing "paddy cakes", an "encounter group where a woman was beaten and raped, and, even Tai Chi being taught by the cult's resident psychiatrist who was the most wooden, Frankenstein-ish person that I had ever seen to this very day--and I have seen a lot in my 59 years, 40 of them spent studying Chinese martial arts). This film was played in the art house circuit in America for years in the early to mid- 1980's, but then the rajneesh org. spent its formidable resources to try and have every copy of it destroyed. Hopefully there's a copy of that film and its been preserved digitally. It is an accidental masterpiece that should be made available for study by anyone afflicted by or in the vicinity of any type of cult manipulator--and especially by law enforcement--and of course, by mental health professionals and spiritualists dealing with brain-washing and mind parasites, respectively. 2nd to that film the CBS 60-Minutes special on the cult was very well done and informative. Amazing interviews with his followers.

 

And since "adept" was kind enough to refer me to links to the majority opinion about Dondrup Dorje over in Europe, I will urge here that anyone not old enough to know about Dalles, Oregon, U.S.A incident in 1984, and who has been seduced by the writings of "Osho", to read this and related news articles carefully, to see how far a cult manipulation can go--and to avoid a frightful disillusionment (and worse) down the road: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack

 

(Rise and fall of Rajneeshpuram)

 

*And I just now happened to find this fascinating Australian 60 Minutes episode and viewed it for the first time, which shows rajneesh answer numerous questions posed to him by the Australian news journalist: http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/the-orange-people/x101q8c

 

 

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin...

--"Help and Health to all my brothers and sisters", a Lakota Sioux invocation upon entering/exiting the sweatlodge (place of prayer and healing)

 

Zen-Bear

 

_{www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html}

Edited February 10, 2014 by zen-bear

[zen-bear]

Ok, I ordered his book.

 

Kieth..he says 1 hr of his system is equivelent to 100 years of other systems.

 

I think maybe we should check it out!

Yeah, right.

[Aetherous]

It's fairly profound.

[zen-bear]

Wonder if this is similar to what Max taught you Cameron:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Health-Gong...s/dp/B0008EN6LI

 

Editorial Reviews

 

Product Description

CHI KUNG means "energy exercise," the ancient Chinese yogic art that cultivates one's internal energy, the vital life force--or "chi." For centuries it has been practiced for healing, rejuvenation and vibrant longevity. Chi Kung For Health is the ground-breaking series by Terence Dunn, creator of the popular Tai Chi for Health series. Chi Kung for Health teaches the very rare and powerful Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Meditations - a remarkable system of medical chi kung created more than 400 years ago by a legendary Taoist master, Feng Tao Teh, of the Ehrmei Mountain school. Carefully preserved through six generations of an impeccable Taoist lineage, this sacred knowledge is now available to the public as a precise, safe, and dynamic program for natural health, healing and illumination.

Hi Oolong Rabbit and everyone else on this thread,

 

Nice DB screenname, btw, Oolong!

 

I just happened to see this thread now in the list of forums and I decided take a look... and the daobums software took me to this page where the first thing that met my eye was this post of the text on the back panel of my Chi Kung For Health DVD series teaching the Ehrmeishan Flying Phoenix Qigong.

 

*I had posted to on this thread about Lama Dorje in 2014 when one of my Tai chi/Qigong students went for a week-long training he gave at his center in the U.K.  All I know is that Lama Dorje was quite controversial at the time in the U.K.

 

And to answer your question:  NO. This would not be similar to what Max (Lama Dorje) would teach anyone.

 

There is no Qigong art similar to Flying Phoenix Qigong.  The closest thing--which isn't very close, actually-- is the Sunn Yi Gong art that is taught by my classmate, Sifu Garry Hearfield, in Sydney, Australia.   There is nobody else in the world learned in "Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Kung" ("Fei Feng San Gong")  or sanctioned to teach it because I am the sole preserver of this art since my teacher, Grandmaster Doo Wai retired 8 years ago.  And I have not taught this art in its entirety to any of my students nor authorized any of them to teach it.  (I do have a few advanced students who are nearing an instructor's certification.)

 

Flying Phoenix Qigong is an authentic Taoist monastic Yoga that was created in the early 1600's and impeccably preserved by 6 generations of my teacher's family lineage called "Ehrmeishan Bok fu Pai"("Ehrmei Mountain White Tiger Kung Fu School").  As a stand-alone Qigong art, it is a vast system.

Just the Basic Level of the art that is only partially taught by my DVD series Volumes 1 through 5, consists of 3 static standing meditations, 9 complex moving meditations, and one long and very complex moving meditation (on Volume 4)--capstone of the art and subsumes the practice of all preceding standing meditations, and 24 seated moving meditations, collectively called the "Monk Serves Wine" Meditations.  These are video clips of this capstone Flying Phoenix Qigong exercise, circa 2004 and circa 2016, respectively:

 

 

 

One of the Kung Fu systems contained in Bok Fu Pai is Ehrmei Mountain Bak Mei (White Eyebrow) Kung fu, which my classmate and friend, Sifu Garry Hearfield, in Australia is the sole preserver of.

 

Information on Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Kung can be found here:

 

www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

 

• And a lively worldwide discussion about FP Qigong practice, now in its 8th year, is on this daobums thread that was started by a enthused FP practitioner and DVD customer in Nov. 2009:

 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/12639-flying-phoenix-chi-kung/page-255?hl=%20flying%20%20phoenix%20%20chi%20%20kung

 

Ever since the initiator of the FPCK thread, "Fu_doggy" asked me to join and answer questions in 2009, I have been answering all posted questions there on a weekly basis.

 

As of today:  4,067 posts; 516,000+ views.   The reason for this longest-running thread on daobums:  the Flying Phoenix Qigong system, as taught on the DVD series, produces results--and does so instantly for thousands of people, who then naturally have something to say about their practice.

 

Thanks for quoting the back-panel text on my Chi Kung For Health DVDs in your post.

 

Regards to all,

 

Sifu Terence Dunn

Edited March 3, 2017 by zen-bear