Giving up

[idiot_stimpy]

Its hard to see things you're attached to and making the decision to let them go. Knowing if you had them you would have to give them up eventually, through a change in circumstances or in death.

 

I know longing for things I don't have leads me to more suffering, instead of being grateful for the moment I am living in.

 

Giving up can be quite painful. We think we will be happy when we get a certain thing, instead of realizing we can be happy for the sake of being happy right now not conditioned by anything.

 

 

I don't mean giving up and committing suicide, I mean giving up ambition and giving up striving for change.

 

 

If I am still striving for the truth, then I'm still striving.

 

 

Does anyone have any good pointers in regards to the path concerning ambitions/desire and its weakening or strengthening?

Edited July 27, 2014 by idiot_stimpy

[GrandmasterP]

Disciplined daily cultivation.

'Stickability'.

Get that in place and all else follows.

Butterflies seldom settle anywhere for long.

Edited July 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[silent thunder]

my experience of gratitude expanded radically

when i swapped ambition for authenticity

[Tibetan_Ice]

Its hard to see things you're attached to and making the decision to let them go. Knowing if you had them you would have to give them up eventually, through a change in circumstances or in death.

 

I know longing for things I don't have leads me to more suffering, instead of being grateful for the moment I am living in.

 

Giving up can be quite painful. We think we will be happy when we get a certain thing, instead of realizing we can be happy for the sake of being happy right now not conditioned by anything.

 

 

I don't mean giving up and committing suicide, I mean giving up ambition and giving up striving for change.

 

 

If I am still striving for the truth, then I'm still striving.

 

 

Does anyone have any good pointers in regards to the path concerning ambitions/desire and its weakening or strengthening?

I'm surprised by your post. I've seen you in the Buddhist sub forum. Have you never read about the four noble truths?

 

http://www.zenponies.com/tim/pathways/buddha/4_noble_truths.html

 

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

Edited July 27, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[idiot_stimpy]

I have read them. If all is suffering, what is the pont of having ambition to get further entangled in things? If happiness is the goal, and all things are suffering, I can see a slow or rapid letting go of ambition to gain things, as those attachments only lead to suffering in the end.

 

Is the desire for liberation or happiness also an attachment that has ambition behind it?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well, the last line in the first link that I quoted says this

 

"4. There is a path that leads from dukkha. Although the Buddha throws responsibility back on to the individual he also taught methods through which we can change ourselves. One formulation of these methods is known as the Noble Eightfold Path of right view, aspiration, action, speech, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and meditation."

 

So aspiration is part of the Noble Eightfold Path.

So is livelihood.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Nungali]

The 'trance of suffering' seems as far as some types (or interpretations) of Buddhism go. The 'field of trances' expands beyond this though. Maybe higher forms are more suitable for you ?

[Bearded Dragon]

Does anyone have any good pointers in regards to the path concerning ambitions/desire and its weakening or strengthening?

 

There are certain things I want to achieve. If I don't achieve them then it doesn't bother me because the path will be pointing towards something else. I arrived at this merely by having the acceptance of all outcomes. Acceptance does not mean liking it. Now I find that I point myself in a direction and sort of just go with it, without worry of the path morphing or changing.

[Hiroki]

I like this thread title, it could be talked about in great depth and I hope it is, let me start with this excerpt from Osho:

 

Go on dropping your desires, even the desire for being a master, the desire for being blissful, the desire for knowing God, the desire for nirvana. All desires have to be dropped.
Mind is so cunning: you can drop one desire and it immediately supplies you with another. And it may supply you with a more subtle desire. The gross desire can be understood by everybody, the subtle desire is more difficult to understand. For example, the desire for God is not thought to be a desire worth dropping. No Christian will say, no Jew will say, no Mohammedan will say, "Drop the desire for God." Drop all desire FOR God, but don't drop the desire for God.
It is only Buddha, the only man in the whole history of human consciousness, who has said the whole truth -- truth in its absolute purity, truth and nothing else. He is so insistent on the truth, that he says you will have to drop the master, and you will have to drop all kinds of desires. Otherwise, mind is very innovative, very creative, imaginative. You drop one thing and it immediately says, "Good. Now seek this, seek truth, seek God."
Now nobody can raise any objections about seeking God -- Buddha raises objections to that, too.

After numerous complaints from the neighbors, Harry sadly agreed to have a veterinarian render his cat fit to guard a sultan's harem.
"I will bet," said one neighbor, "that that ex-tom of yours just lies on the hearth now and gets fat."
"No, he still goes out at night. But now he goes along as a consultant."

If you cannot do anything, at least you can function as a consultant; but the going continues. Nothing has changed, the operation has failed.
Remember, if you are a real seeker... and this is a strange paradox: if you are a real seeker, you will have to drop all seeking as such. Otherwise you will go on seeking one thing after another, and there is no end to it.
When all seeking stops, you are suddenly at the very center of your being. Seeking drives you outside, seeking takes you away from yourself. Jesus says: Seek and ye shall find. Knock and the doors shall be opened unto you. Ask and it shall be given.
Buddha will not say that. Buddha will say, "Seek and you will not find. Knock and the doors will never be opened for you. Ask and you will not be given."
Then why does Jesus say so? Is Jesus not a buddha? Jesus is also a buddha, but the difference of their statements is because of the audience. Jesus is talking to ordinary people, and Buddha is talking to very evolved disciples. Jesus is talking to the crowds. If he had said to them, "Seek and ye shall never find," they would not have understood him. They would have thought him mad, absolutely mad.
Seek and you shall not find? Ask and it shall not be given to you? Knock and the doors shall not be thrown open unto you? He was talking to ordinary people, hence he has to use very ordinary expressions.
Buddha is talking to adepts, initiates. Jesus was not so fortunate as Buddha. Jesus' disciples were very ordinary, even those twelve apostles were very ordinary, unconscious people. Buddha had thousands of BODHISATTVAS, thousands of disciples who were just on the verge of becoming buddhas any moment. Thousands were just on the verge of bursting into a flame of eternal light. He could talk without any fear of being misunderstood; hence he says: RELY ON NOTHING UNTIL YOU WANT NOTHING.
The greatest moment in life is when there is no desire left inside you, when desirelessness settles, absolute desirelessness. In that very moment all is attained, because all has always been there inside you. It was because of desires that you were running hither and thither, not looking inside. When all running has stopped, suddenly your own truth explodes with all its beauty, with all its benediction upon you.
Listen to Buddha, meditate over his sutra. It will give you great insight -- insight into desire and its futility. It will help you to drop all desires. And the moment you are desireless you have arrived home.
Enough for today.

 

-OSHO

 

Ok, so firstly I want to say giving up should not be painful. Clinging is painful. Giving up is painful when you are clinging to an attachment strongly. You have to renounce things naturally, at your own pace. This is all I have to say so far. Will continue later.

[Tibetan_Ice]

What a load of crap you quoted there, from Osho. But thank you very much for further establishing that Osho really had no understanding of Buddhism, nor did he have any understanding of Jesus.

 

Boddhicitta is the aspiration, wish or desire of the mind that strives towards enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Bodhichitta

 

Khenpo Pema Vajra defines bodhichitta as "the wish to attain enlightenment in order to free all other sentient beings from the sufferings of existence and lead them to the unsurpassable bliss of omniscience."[2]

 

Khenpo Tsöndrü defines the generation of bodhichitta as "a special type of mental consciousness endowed with two aspects, inspired by the cause, longing to bring about the welfare of others, and accompanied by the support, longing to attain complete and perfect awakening."[3]

 

 

Perhaps Osho could show us a school of Buddhism that does not have boddhicitta as an integral part of the path. (Or you, for that matter)

 

A wish is an aspiration, is a desire, is the only desire that Buddha did not say to drop, except maybe during practice.

And Jesus has every right to say seek an ye shall find, because prayers are answered, and sometimes personally by Jesus.

 

Apparently Osho never heard of Amitabha, the "ask and ye shall receive Buddha"

 

 

Through his efforts, Amitābha created the "Pure Land" (净土, Chinese: jìngtŭ; Japanese: jōdo; Vietnamese: tịnh độ) called Sukhāvatī (Sanskrit: "possessing happiness") . Sukhāvatī is situated in the uttermost west, beyond the bounds of our own world. By the power of his vows, Amitābha has made it possible for all who call upon him to be reborn into this land, there to undergo instruction by him in the dharma and ultimately become bodhisattvas and buddhas in their turn (the ultimate goal of Mahāyāna Buddhism). From there, these same bodhisattvas and buddhas return to our world to help yet more people.

 

 

Just call on Amitabha and you shall....

 

Further, according to Dudjom Rinpoche, Osho has blown any kind of samaya by putting down Jesus, and even by comparing Jesus to Buddha...

 

From: Counsels from My Heart by Dudjom Rinpoche

 

 

We must refrain from criticizing other traditions and schools, and stop entertaining wrong notions about them. We are in a foreign country; we should not make an exhibition of our bad behavior! Even if we are unable to have pure vision regarding each other, we should at the very least aim and aspire not to criticize and have wrong views about each other.

 

So please don't bring up the hypocritical Osho, with his limousines, group sex, and his whining about impotency as he aged. He is by far the worst example of someone whom has overcome desires. You are insulting our intelligence here..

 

Edited July 28, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Nungali]

Give up attachment to Osho .

 

Even Osho taught that (not that they listened to him) .

Edited July 28, 2014 by Nungali

[GrandmasterP]

Osho on Chuang Tzu here...

Free book ...

http://www.oshorajneesh.com/download/osho-books/Tao/When_the_Shoe_Fits.pdf

 

 

[Hiroki]

What a load of crap you quoted there, from Osho. But thank you very much for further establishing that Osho really had no understanding of Buddhism, nor did he have any understanding of Jesus.

 

Boddhicitta is the aspiration, wish or desire of the mind that strives towards enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Bodhichitta

 

Perhaps Osho could show us a school of Buddhism that does not have boddhicitta as an integral part of the path. (Or you, for that matter)

 

A wish is an aspiration, is a desire, is the only desire that Buddha did not say to drop, except maybe during practice.

And Jesus has every right to say seek an ye shall find, because prayers are answered, and sometimes personally by Jesus.

 

Apparently Osho never heard of Amitabha, the "ask and ye shall receive Buddha"

 

Just call on Amitabha and you shall....

 

Further, according to Dudjom Rinpoche, Osho has blown any kind of samaya by putting down Jesus, and even by comparing Jesus to Buddha...

 

From: Counsels from My Heart by Dudjom Rinpoche

 

So please don't bring up the hypocritical Osho, with his limousines, group sex, and his whining about impotency as he aged. He is by far the worst example of someone whom has overcome desires. You are insulting our intelligence here..

 

Lol, I do apologize. I knew a Zen practicioner from years ago who studied Osho, I find some of his quotes interesting. But I will stop reading his stuff, had no idea about all that garbage tied to him.

 

Personally I would much rather call on the Buddha's name and pray to Kuan Yin daily. Lol, my desire spurred me to dig up an Osho quote yet again.

 

Life just threw me another curve ball today, and it seems as I will be giving up my rampant use of the internet due to a brutal new job.

 

Namo Amituofo.

[ChiForce]

You mean, how to become an outcast when you have been told that you need to improve your social and economic status of your life and yourself. Meditate on your center channels and to realize compassion for injustice and for people who are less fortunate than you. And stop judging people who you admire. Treat them like a normal person and to see them for what they are. You should be able to live a peaceful life without causing karma.

 

You must realize that there are people in power who you may admire but they may lack certain moral quality or ethical standard. These people maybe very self centered. Or they only see people as means to their ends to gain more power, prestige, or money. If you want to follow the path, keep a distance from these people.

 

 

[Anoesjka]

@Hiroki: No need to throw away wisdom, even if someone else told you the source is worthless. If you recognize truth in it, there is truth in it.

[Anoesjka]

About giving up: yesterday my ego was so sad and scared, because it felt it had to go. It cried and cried. But it's only a construct that is sad and scared.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

my experience of gratitude expanded radically

when i swapped ambition for authenticity

 

This may have been said in part by others here, but I think the main thing is know that you are okay without attaining.

 

It's still great to have goals and ambitions, imo. You learn a lot about yourself and everything else when striving for them. But you need to do so with the right perspective. "Don't sell your soul to gain the world."

 

The other thing is that too often ambitions are seeking to aggrandize the self, or substitute for the self. This of course will end up empty handed, and in more want with less hope. Best to be free of such a need in the first place. To me, this is the point of transcending ambitions.

 

How better to train the self against difficult people than by being with difficult people? How better to transcend ambitions than by striving for them? Whatever issues you have towards them will pop up, allowing you to recognize and work on those issues. It's more of the "push you out of the nest" way of learning, but also the most "real world" experience way. You also need a regimen to keep you connected to your pursuit though, which is greater than the ambitions themselves.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[silent thunder]

This may have been said in part by others here, but I think the main thing is know that you are okay without attaining.

 

It's still great to have goals and ambitions, imo. You learn a lot about yourself and everything else when striving for them. But you need to do so with the right perspective. "Don't sell your soul to gain the world."

 

The other thing is that too often ambitions are seeking to aggrandize the self, or substitute for the self. This of course will end up empty handed, and in more want with less hope. Best to be free of such a need in the first place. To me, this is the point of transcending ambitions.

 

How better to train the self against difficult people than by being with difficult people? How better to transcend ambitions than by striving for them? Whatever issues you have towards them will pop up, allowing you to recognize and work on those issues. It's more of the "push you out of the nest" way of learning, but also the most "real world" experience way. You also need a regimen to keep you connected to your pursuit though, which is greater than the ambitions themselves.

 

Very timely response...

 

Of late, it seems that release is where I'm resonating.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35749-muddiest-water-rests-in-clarity/

 

 

Though this does not judge or preclude the benefits of my prior, nor anyone's current of future efforts or ambitions...

[doc benway]

Its hard to see things you're attached to and making the decision to let them go. Knowing if you had them you would have to give them up eventually, through a change in circumstances or in death.

 

I know longing for things I don't have leads me to more suffering, instead of being grateful for the moment I am living in.

 

Giving up can be quite painful. We think we will be happy when we get a certain thing, instead of realizing we can be happy for the sake of being happy right now not conditioned by anything.

 

 

I don't mean giving up and committing suicide, I mean giving up ambition and giving up striving for change.

 

 

If I am still striving for the truth, then I'm still striving.

 

 

Does anyone have any good pointers in regards to the path concerning ambitions/desire and its weakening or strengthening?

 

 

I have read them. If all is suffering, what is the pont of having ambition to get further entangled in things? If happiness is the goal, and all things are suffering, I can see a slow or rapid letting go of ambition to gain things, as those attachments only lead to suffering in the end.

 

Is the desire for liberation or happiness also an attachment that has ambition behind it?

 

 

I think the Mahayana path was developed in response to exactly your problem.

We need to eliminate desire, but how to eliminate the desire to eliminate desire?

How to eliminate the desire to seek liberation?

By working for the liberation of all others first!

 

Demello saw through this as well. He saw that there are different levels of selfishness -

1. The more coarse is to give my self the pleasure of pleasing myself

2. The more refined is to give my self the pleasure of pleasing others

3. The worst is to be motivated by avoidance of negative emotions

His approach was to simply be aware of this. If we are fully aware in every moment, then everything falls into place.

 

My current practice is Dzogchen. As you know, the bottom line is to first recognize and then rest in the nature of mind as much as possible. When you are able to really access that stillness, silence, and spaciousness that is there for all of us, there is no need to do anything, change anything, become anything, it is all already there and perfect. There is no need to suffer and no need to avoid suffering. The challenge is to be with that and in that space always... not easy.

 

During those time when we cannot be in that place, there are lots of things we can do (purification practices, tantric practices, sutric practices, yogic practices) but nothing is better than being of service to others who need help - especially when you get nothing tangible in return.

 

So I would suggest something like setting up a schedule of visits to a hospice or a nursing home.

Read to someone who is blind or hold the hand of someone who is lonely or dying.

Volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen.

Lots of things like this can help us let go of our attachments, including our attachment to liberation.

[Tibetan_Ice]

@Hiroki: No need to throw away wisdom, even if someone else told you the source is worthless. If you recognize truth in it, there is truth in it.

Yes, definitely, truth is where you find it. Unfortunately Osho had very little wisdom as we can tell by reading the garbage he wrote. Why would he tell men to meditate on the third eye and tell women to meditate on their breasts?

 

There comes a point where you have to be discerning. You have to be very careful what you accept as truth because if you have no idea about what is true, if you blindly accept someone else's word at face value, you may be setting yourself for bad karma.

 

Hint: would you buy a topical solution for growing hair from a bald salesman?

[DreamBliss]

I don't know that I have any answer for you.

 

But it is my understanding that in Buddhism, suffering comes from seeking, from attachment to something or aversion from something,

 

My understanding may be wrong, but if not, perhaps you need to redfine what causes suffering.

 

I would say suffering comes not from seeking, but a failure to realize you are already perfect, and you already have everything you need. You only think you need or want these things. You only think you need to give up.

 

These feelings are all coming from thoughts. They are all illusion or maya. They are not the Truth. You are one with the Source, so you are one with all. You can never gibe up or loose anything. You are already one with whatever it is you need or want.

 

Understand that your happiness is not derived from having, or sadness derived from giving up. Who you really are, inside, that part of you that lives on, remains unaffected.

[idiot_stimpy]

I don't know that I have any answer for you.

 

But it is my understanding that in Buddhism, suffering comes from seeking, from attachment to something or aversion from something,

 

My understanding may be wrong, but if not, perhaps you need to redfine what causes suffering.

 

I would say suffering comes not from seeking, but a failure to realize you are already perfect, and you already have everything you need. You only think you need or want these things. You only think you need to give up.

 

These feelings are all coming from thoughts. They are all illusion or maya. They are not the Truth. You are one with the Source, so you are one with all. You can never gibe up or loose anything. You are already one with whatever it is you need or want.

 

Understand that your happiness is not derived from having, or sadness derived from giving up. Who you really are, inside, that part of you that lives on, remains unaffected.

 

Beautiful

[Anoesjka]

Yes, definitely, truth is where you find it. Unfortunately Osho had very little wisdom as we can tell by reading the garbage he wrote. Why would he tell men to meditate on the third eye and tell women to meditate on their breasts?

 

There comes a point where you have to be discerning. You have to be very careful what you accept as truth because if you have no idea about what is true, if you blindly accept someone else's word at face value, you may be setting yourself for bad karma.

 

Hint: would you buy a topical solution for growing hair from a bald salesman?

Are you afraid of bad karma?

 

I recognize truth when I hear it. Or rather, the not-I does. Whoever speaks them is of less importance. Even the most lowly person can speak deep truths.

 

As Donald Rumsfeld once said:

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

 

Now that was a big truth coming from someone I wouldn't even want to be in the same room with.

[DreamBliss]

I am learning to be with the place where I don't know. To be OK with that. This need to know comes from the intellect. But as many here and in the books I have read have said, you can not think your way to enlightenment. You can't even think your way to an experience of God. All subjects spiritual are unthinkable and unknowable. We only think we know them

 

To explore the spiritual, move away from the intellect, and towards intuition. Feel your way forwards spiritually. Allow yourself tyo be guided, to do the things that don't make any sense on an intellectual level. I think perhaps this is the way to proceeed, assuming anyone is going anywhere.