What the hell is the abyss anyways?

[Nungali]

The veil of Paroketh;

 

" Mortals never learn from stories

How catastrophé becomes;How above the victor's gloriesIn the trumpets and the drumsAnd the cry of millions "Master!"Looms the shadow of disaster.Every hour a man hath said:"That at least is scotched and dead."Some one circumstance; "At lastThat, and it effects, are past."Some one terror--subtle foe!"I have laid that spectre low."They know not, learn not, cannot calculateHow subtly FateWeaves its fine mesh, perceiving how to wait;Or how accumulateThe trifles that shall make it master yetOf the strong soul that bade itself forget."

http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-rites-of-eleusis/sol.html

 

(and the whole rite actually )

Edited July 29, 2014 by Nungali

[BaguaKicksAss]

If he was the reincarnation of Kelly, it is quite clear that he didn't bring his previous memories with him...

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

To go back and quote from the Wikipedia article:

 

 

In the Golden Dawn and earlier traditions the Abyss was the abode of the Qliphoth, the abode of 'evil' spirits and the usages derive ultimately from the Greek concept of Tartarus where the Titans were imprisioned, thus my earlier reference to Hades and Tartarus. Hades is simply the abode of the dead, run by a respectable Olympian, Zeus' brother, Tartarus is the abode of 'cosmic' criminals, confined because they would mess up everything. The whole matter is very complex, both historically and in terms of the Golden Dawn's teaching on the matter. Right now I don't have time to say much more about this background.

 

Orignally the abyss was certainly not something that you 'went through', it was something that you passed over or around somehow and falling into it would have been considered to be like falling into a cosmic cesspool.

 

Crowley introduced his approach to it because he wanted to at least claim the grade of Magus, the second of the grades beyond the abyss, so that he could claim to be 'Magus of the New Eon' and for that reason, he had to get accross the abyss. Depending on ones attitude to Crowley, it is spiritual insight or a manifestation of his megalomania.

 

Well since you put it that way, probably not something folks should brag about. Bragging rights instead should maybe include "yeah I found the away *around* it on up to Binah!"

 

So if this is a Crowley creation and egregore, would it be sort of like wandering around in Crowley's own "spiritual insight, or, meglomania"?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Well, as long as we are going to be picky here, the 'plagiarism' started in the Seventheenth Century. Mathers would have been better off if he had read The True and Faithful Relation, as it is the Golden Dawn Adeptus minor curriuclum is based on Sloane 307, a Seventeenth Century transcript which introduces a confusion about attributes of the lesser angles which is reproduced in the Golden Dawn material. The Golden Dawn liber 'H' is pretty much a transcription of this manuscript. Also, he read a work from the pair of Dr. Rudd and Peter Smart, Harley 6482, which introduces the Goetic spirits to the Table of Practice. Mathers did get most of the systme, there was also more of if in higher grades then was published by Regardie in his original work on the Golden Dawn system.

 

Hmm, Sloeane 307, don't think I've read that one . Who was the author/who's handwriting?

 

Dr. Rudd.... I could start an entirely new rant about him.... his lining up the 72 Goetia (because he never found the Pseudomonarchia Daemonisum version of the Lemegeton I guess) with the 72 shemhamphoresh *grumble*.

 

And the whole bringing in some goetia stuff with a bunch of fancy 666's on the ensigns of creation... oy vey.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I do believe that a plagiarist is someone who copies others work without acknowledging others sources; using someone else's ideas as if they were their own.

 

So I guess you are claiming that Crowley didnt acknowledge Dee and Kelly?

 

In any case he may not have needed to .... being a reincarnation of Dee himself .

 

 

< prod prod .... listens for BKA and ZYT grumbling >

 

I think as far as Enochian goes, everyone already knew that was a system by someone else.

 

All I ask is could he have not mentioned "hey I changed a few things here"?

 

But I think maybe GrandmasterP was saying that ol Crowley uhm "borrowed" the whole Chronozon thing from the Enochian MS? Was that name known before this (I seriously can't remember now)

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hmm, Sloeane 307, don't think I've read that one . Who was the author/who's handwriting?

 

Dr. Rudd.... I could start an entirely new rant about him.... his lining up the 72 Goetia (because he never found the Pseudomonarchia Daemonisum version of the Lemegeton I guess) with the 72 shemhamphoresh *grumble*.

 

And the whole bringing in some goetia stuff with a bunch of fancy 666's on the ensigns of creation... oy vey.

 

Regardie himself says in the Golden Dawn that the Golden Dawn Liber H is a transcription of Sloane 307, The Golden Dawn, Book One, Vol. 1, p. 85 (Third Edition, 1970). Dr. Thomas Head, well known as an authority, had been kind enouth to give me a copy of the Liber H in the mid 1970s and when I requested the Enochian microfilms from the British Library in the late 70s Sloane 307 was on the list. It is an anonymous manuscript in a very legible Italic hand and was much easier to read than the Enochian originals in their Secretary hand. Judging by the contents the author only had access to the True and Faithful Relation. He misreads the section in the True and Faithful Relation on the attributes of the lesser angles and this mistake is repeated in the Golden Dawn usage, compare The Golden Dawn, Book 2, Vol. 4, p. 327(Third Edition, 1970) to Turner's treatment in Elizabethan Magic, p. 68 (Element Books, 1989), based on Dee's orignal transcription. Frederick Hockley apparently had Sloane 307 copied in the middle of the Nineteenth Century, and this may explain the Golden Dawn's using it. I take Sloane 307 to be late Seventeenth Century and one of the curious things about it is that, rather then being merely notes, it seem to be written like instructions. I thought at the time it might have been written as instructions for a small group or something trying to practice in the Seventeenth Century from material in the True and Faithful Relation

 

The 666s in Rudd appear because of misreading the Secretary hand 'b', a mistake which could not be made by someone with access to the Tabula Bonorum and enough smarts to make the connection.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I think as far as Enochian goes, everyone already knew that was a system by someone else.

 

All I ask is could he have not mentioned "hey I changed a few things here"?

 

But I think maybe GrandmasterP was saying that ol Crowley uhm "borrowed" the whole Chronozon thing from the Enochian MS? Was that name known before this (I seriously can't remember now) (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I think as far as Enochian goes, everyone already knew that was a system by someone else: Actually in the original Golden Dawn in the 1890s, few people, if any, may have recognized it and it may not have been attributed to Dee and Kelly. Apropos of this, there was the Naure's Finer Forces mini-scandal when some members complained that some of Philosophus Grade instructions were an unatributed precis of this work, written by Rama Prased and published by the Theosophical Society.

 

All I ask is could he have not mentioned "hey I changed a few things here"? : Those weren't changes, they were divine revelations. (heavy irony smiley face)

[BaguaKicksAss]

Regardie himself says in the Golden Dawn that the Golden Dawn Liber H is a transcription of Sloane 307, The Golden Dawn, Book One, Vol. 1, p. 85 (Third Edition, 1970). Dr. Thomas Head, well known as an authority, had been kind enouth to give me a copy of the Liber H in the mid 1970s and when I requested the Enochian microfilms from the British Library in the late 70s Sloane 307 was on the list. It is an anonymous manuscript in a very legible Italic hand and was much easier to read than the Enochian originals in their Secretary hand. Judging by the contents the author only had access to the True and Faithful Relation. He misreads the section in the True and Faithful Relation on the attributes of the lesser angles and this mistake is repeated in the Golden Dawn usage, compare The Golden Dawn, Book 2, Vol. 4, p. 327(Third Edition, 1970) to Turner's treatment in Elizabethan Magic, p. 68 (Element Books, 1989), based on Dee's orignal transcription. Frederick Hockley apparently had Sloane 307 copied in the middle of the Nineteenth Century, and this may explain the Golden Dawn's using it. I take Sloane 307 to be late Seventeenth Century and one of the curious things about it is that, rather then being merely notes, it seem to be written like instructions. I thought at the time it might have been written as instructions for a small group or something trying to practice in the Seventeenth Century from material in the True and Faithful Relation

 

The 666s in Rudd appear because of misreading the Secretary hand 'b', a mistake which could not be made by someone with access to the Tabula Bonorum and enough smarts to make the connection.

 

Thank you for bringing 307 up; would be nice to read a historical account of an Enochian working. Oh this is frustrating, my Sloanes are on other hard drives... stored somewhere. I also have some on actual microfilm! (307 isn't on the microfilm though). So I'm not sure whether I have it or not. I will have it soon though if not. I'm also interested in reading Ashmole's Enochian workings.... but a lot to read through to find them. I hear they aren't very exciting, but still... would save money on rat traps in the spring perhaps.

 

I love Turner's book! It really does help to figure out the whole Enochian map and the aethyres thing. I was fortunate enough to team up with someone who's hobby is historical maps from various time periods. He helped me figure out what Dee meant by each area/country, and translating it into where it would be in modern times.

 

All this talk of MS, I think I should go burn all my magical diary notes now, just in case! lol

[BaguaKicksAss]

I think as far as Enochian goes, everyone already knew that was a system by someone else: Actually in the original Golden Dawn in the 1890s, few people, if any, may have recognized it and it may not have been attributed to Dee and Kelly. Apropos of this, there was the Naure's Finer Forces mini-scandal when some members complained that some of Philosophus Grade instructions were an unatributed precis of this work, written by Rama Prased and published by the Theosophical Society.

 

All I ask is could he have not mentioned "hey I changed a few things here"? : Those weren't changes, they were divine revelations. (heavy irony smiley face)

 

Yeah I've had some "divine revelations" with Enochian magic too....

 

I had been reading too much Grant at one point and thought I'd go venture into the aethyres and see if there were any "inverted" ones!

 

Ah youth..

 

ROFL.

[Andrei]

Voyages to Hell-Buddha Tse Kong and Yang T'Sien (1976)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/147991588

[Zhongyongdaoist]

All this talk of MS, I think I should go burn all my magical diary notes now, just in case! lol

 

Dee and Kelly found it wouldn't work. See this excerpt from the Liber Resurrectionis, April 30, 1586:

 

E.K. then came to me and said, "I think there is some wicked spirit that would elude me," and he told and said to me, as is before noted. Then said I, I will go into the garden, and bade E.K. come with me. We went down that way which this creature did go: but nothing we saw, went to the banqueting house in the vineyard, but that place pleased us not: so, we went along in the way by the cliffside, and sat down on the bank by the great pile of vine-stakes lying in the very south end of the vineyard. And we had not sat there half a quarter of an hour, but I espied under the almond tree, and on the south side of it, being the westerly almond tree, that is it which is standing on the westerly side of the straight path which leadeth from the north toward the south in the vineyard. I espied (I say) like a sheet of fair white paper lying tossed to and fro in the wind. I rose and went to it, and (to the praise of God His truth and power,) there I found three of my books lying, which were so diligently burnt the tenth day of April last.

 

1 The three books were, Enoch his book.

 

2 The 48 Claves Angelica.

 

3 And the third was the book of my gathering of the thirty airs, and entitled Liber Scientia terrestris auxilii & victoriæ.

 

Thereupon E.K. coming to me, I fell on my knees with great thanks yielding to the God Almighty, and so did E.K. whose mind and body were marvelously affected by the sight of the said books, having no show or sign that ever they had been in the fire, neither by color or favor, or anything wanting. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

You can read more here:

 

Blog on Dee and Kelly

 

Of course this is written off as just more of Kelly's 'cozening' conjuring tricks, but who knows.

 

One of the amazing things about this material is how much of it actually survived. According to Elias Ashmole a servant of one of the previous owners had:

 

They made no great matter of these bookes &c: because they understood them not, which occasioned their servant maide to wast about one halfe of them under pyes & other like uses, which when discovered, they kept the rest more safe. (Twilight Grotto, Ashmole's preface to Dee's Diaries, Emphasisi mine, ZYD)

 

Yet there still seems to survive almost the whole system.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Dee and Kelly found it wouldn't work. See this excerpt from the Liber Resurrectionis, April 30, 1586:

 

 

You can read more here:

 

Blog on Dee and Kelly

 

Of course this is written off as just more of Kelly's 'cozening' conjuring tricks, but who knows.

 

One of the amazing things about this material is how much of it actually survived. According to Elias Ashmole a servant of one of the previous owners had:

 

 

Yet there still seems to survive almost the whole system.

 

I had forgotten about that! lol First there is the fire from the neighbors who thought they were evil. Then in another house, they burned them themselves. Then they tried to hide them inside a false drawer. Then a heap of them were used to wrap fish and pies....

 

But I guess any entities which can manifest a physical skrying ball in front of you, can probably decide if your diary notes are going to survive or not. My teacher one day strongly suggested I write them in code. Well we saw how well that worked for Soyga MS 7.

 

Anyways, this all really makes me wonder what is missing? At a guess how to use those 49 damndable 49X49 tables to start...

[Nungali]

If he was the reincarnation of Kelly, it is quite clear that he didn't bring his previous memories with him...

 

 

No ... just the scam artists skills

 

 

[Nungali]

" which occasioned their servant maide to wast about one halfe of them under pyes & other like uses,"

 

What! Is that pies ? They used enochian manuscripts as pie baking paper.

 

What happend if you ate one ? (Sounds as risky as 'demonic chocolate' )

 

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

" which occasioned their servant maide to wast about one halfe of them under pyes & other like uses,"

 

What! Is that pies ? They used enochian manuscripts as pie baking paper.

 

What happend if you ate one ? (Sounds as risky as 'demonic chocolate' )

 

 

 

 

Is that a direct reference to my Daemon hot cocoa ritual?

 

I'm not sure if I posted about it on here or not... it started as a joke, and well we thought it would be a good idea. Daemon seals etched into squares of chocolate! Free trade organic chocolate of course. We also added some milk, raw sugar, and maple liquor .

[sunchild]

i'm pretty sure the abyss is that last stretch of 'guilty conscious/compassion/personalduality' that serial killers cross over before they commit their 'atrocities' against humans

 

freedom/purity

[Nungali]

I'm not sure if I posted about it on here or not...

 

Well ... you have now !

 

No, you didnt post about that here before.

 

 

Hang on a minute !

 

Maple liquor ?

 

....

 

Maple Liquor ? ? ?

 

Like a liquor made from real maple syrup? Oooooooo I never heard of that before ..... I need that !

 

... another wonderful product of Canadia!

[Nungali]

The Chocolate abyss awaits thee ;

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Nungali

[silent thunder]

mmmm dark chocolate.....

Edited July 29, 2014 by silent thunder

[BaguaKicksAss]

.

Edited July 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

The Chocolate abyss awaits thee ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

ROFL

 

Looks to be the "there goes your diet" demon... .

Edited July 30, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

[silent thunder]

dear god it's real...

[Nungali]

Edited July 30, 2014 by Nungali

[Asmo]

Maybe of interest for all of you who are interested in crossing the Abyss.

 

http://www.theomagica.com/on-crossing-the-abyss

 

>Chris<