What the hell is the abyss anyways?

[GrandmasterP]

He didn't quite plagiarize Dee and Kelly. (unless you just count borrowing one name and spelling it differently) Mathers went to the British museum and read through the Enochian manuscripts. It was far more difficult to get manuscripts back then, so he unfortunately only got about 1/10th of the system. He likely also read a True and Faithful Revelation. Then.... he proceeded to change everything around *grumble* so it fit his idea of colours, directions, everything based on elements and etc. Then Crowley came into the picture, and really liked the whole Aethyre idea and ran with it. What he came up with was pretty awesome, lets travel these things! However I feel that his visions and experiences were biased by his own previous ideas of how the universe works and their own system.

 

I forgot to warn TTBs, don't get me started on Enochian magic and Crowley/Mathers lol.

 

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Enochian magic has nothing to do with Crowley. It came about centuries before he was even conceived: Exactly the same could be said about Qabalah, but I know that are particularly sensitive about Enochian magic, as am I also, but I was rushed, as usual, and didn't observe the nicities like:

 

The Abyss, Crowley inspired Pseudo-Qabalistic Interpretaion

 

The Abyss, Crowley inspired Pseudo-Enochian Magic Interpretation

 

There, happy now?

 

We can leave it to Nungali to come post a vociferous defense of Crowley when he comes on.

 

ROFL your editing of the link titles ROFL.

 

I had left out the Kabbalah dig that I sometimes add .

 

Oh Crowley did have a lot of good to input into magic.... I just am still working on forgiving him and Mathers for what they did to enochian .

 

I am curious though, was Crowley the first to come up with the whole abyss thing? Surely magicians before him must have experienced this same thing? It seems sort of universal?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Is there a Taoist or Buddhist equivalent to this whole abyss thing? It would be difficult to imagine only ceremonial magicians happening across it...

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Pet peeves aside, should I read what Crowley has to say or is he a crappy source? IYO.

 

Regarding Enochian, no. Regarding the abyss, yes I think so, if that particular path is something you follow and you are drawn to. Which path/s do you follow? Crowley has some really good stuff in there, but he most definitely isn't for everyone.

 

Not a path I personally follow, but did do some golden dawn stuff for a decade when I first started. (hey I was doing some ATRs on the side, it's all good ).

 

There are much better sources on Enochian (Geoffrey James for example).

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'll suggest that we could inspect thoroughly why we experience the emotions we experience, especially the negative ones, after certain encounters. It's not about the emotion but rather the "why?" of the emotion. Total honesty is required.

 

Definitely a good full time practice!

 

And one can even add the bit the medical qigong folks love in there... "how does this make me feel?" "when is the first time I felt this way/this happened?"

[GrandmasterP]

Is there a Taoist or Buddhist equivalent to this whole abyss thing? It would be difficult to imagine only ceremonial magicians happening across it...

 

西 West = " Abyss".

In Bagua.

 

[Marblehead]

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

I think you might want to look at your calendar and watch. But then, you may be talking from a prespective of circular time and for me that is much like a circle jerk.

[GrandmasterP]

Ecclesiastes buddy, in the Bible.

Ch1 verse 9 I think.

' What comes around goes around' is maybe another way of putting it.

I was thinking of it in relation to the 'chicken and egg' of Crowley / Dee etc and Enochian magic.

Somebody had to come up with it 'first' and we don't know who but after they did then all the dudes afterwards were recycling and re-inventing around an existing set of ideas.

We get similar at work when, every few years; new managers come up with some big initiative which, on closer inspection generally turns out to be some rebranded and renamed old idea that we tried and failed with a few years previously.

Edited July 28, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

 

Regarding Enochian, no. Regarding the abyss, yes I think so, if that particular path is something you follow and you are drawn to. Which path/s do you follow?

Well I have been and primarily am purely philosophical with some meditation , but Im considering shifting to some other things , Ive gone as far as I think I am going to get without some new input, I'm looking at Qigong for health reasons ( arrhythmia and Im getting older ) but my curiosity runs to all sorts of things,, but really not supernatural stuff.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

He didn't quite plagiarize Dee and Kelly. (unless you just count borrowing one name and spelling it differently) Mathers went to the British museum and read through the Enochian manuscripts. It was far more difficult to get manuscripts back then, so he unfortunately only got about 1/10th of the system. He likely also read a True and Faithful Revelation. Then.... he proceeded to change everything around *grumble* so it fit his idea of colours, directions, everything based on elements and etc. Then Crowley came into the picture, and really liked the whole Aethyre idea and ran with it. What he came up with was pretty awesome, lets travel these things! However I feel that his visions and experiences were biased by his own previous ideas of how the universe works and their own system.

 

I forgot to warn TTBs, don't get me started on Enochian magic and Crowley/Mathers lol.

 

Well, as long as we are going to be picky here, the 'plagiarism' started in the Seventheenth Century. Mathers would have been better off if he had read The True and Faithful Relation, as it is the Golden Dawn Adeptus minor curriuclum is based on Sloane 307, a Seventeenth Century transcript which introduces a confusion about attributes of the lesser angles which is reproduced in the Golden Dawn material. The Golden Dawn liber 'H' is pretty much a transcription of this manuscript. Also, he read a work from the pair of Dr. Rudd and Peter Smart, Harley 6482, which introduces the Goetic spirits to the Table of Practice. Mathers did get most of the systme, there was also more of if in higher grades then was published by Regardie in his original work on the Golden Dawn system.

[Marblehead]

Also from what I understand, staying too long in the abyss is a very bad thing, you get sort of stuck... again from trying to take a big of "you" across.

This is important, I think.

[Nungali]

The Abyss ?

 

The gap between mind and brain ?

The 'separation' between the ideal and the manifest?

A flat piece of paper with NO thickness ?

Edited July 28, 2014 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I am curious though, was Crowley the first to come up with the whole abyss thing? Surely magicians before him must have experienced this same thing? It seems sort of universal?

 

To go back and quote from the Wikipedia article:

 

In the Qabalistic system of Crowley, the Abyss contains the 11th (hidden) sephira, Da'ath, which separates the lower sephiroth from the supernals. This account derives from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's view of Genesis, in which Da'ath represents the fall of man from a unified consciousness into a duality between ego and divine nature. Wikipedia on Abyss in Thelema, Emphasis mine, ZYD

 

In the Golden Dawn and earlier traditions the Abyss was the abode of the Qliphoth, the abode of 'evil' spirits and the usages derive ultimately from the Greek concept of Tartarus where the Titans were imprisioned, thus my earlier reference to Hades and Tartarus. Hades is simply the abode of the dead, run by a respectable Olympian, Zeus' brother, Tartarus is the abode of 'cosmic' criminals, confined because they would mess up everything. The whole matter is very complex, both historically and in terms of the Golden Dawn's teaching on the matter. Right now I don't have time to say much more about this background.

 

Orignally the abyss was certainly not something that you 'went through', it was something that you passed over or around somehow and falling into it would have been considered to be like falling into a cosmic cesspool.

 

Crowley introduced his approach to it because he wanted to at least claim the grade of Magus, the second of the grades beyond the abyss, so that he could claim to be 'Magus of the New Eon' and for that reason, he had to get accross the abyss. Depending on ones attitude to Crowley, it is spiritual insight or a manifestation of his megalomania.

[Marblehead]

The distance between this and that. Sometimes insurmountable. Othertimes undetectable.

[Nungali]

It's one of those concepts that you think you know, then you realize later that you don't at all.

 

I also have some pet peeves with he concept since I see time and time again people talking on end about having crossed it, but coming out still depressed and angry on the other side??

 

... or battling those guys who also crossed .... no you didnt !

 

.... did too ! Here's the medal and sash!

 

From what I understand, doesn't it bring you through your internal, and the external personal underworld (for lack of better wording, sorry) sort of thing, while you completely release and get past all concepts of who/what you were before you ventured through it? A gargantuan change for the positive... yet a quite dangerous journey since you could end up not making it and come out of it pretty messed up.

 

IMO the ToL ( assuming that is the abyss in question ? ) is about manifestation ... it doesnt work well as a map of the psyche ... which is why I developed my own 'Tree'. Psychologically Mars doesnt belong up there .... energetically it does .... for starters. So if you leap into a 'psychological abyss' from Mars ... or near it ... I'm not surprised people come out angry then. The 'underworld' IMO is a totally different concept.

 

 

I'm curious about different Bums' takes on this .

 

(on a side note I have this theory that there is a mini abyss on your way just before Tiphereth; from a ceremonial magick standpoint). Mini meaning still just nearly as intense and life changing as the big cahuna, but just earlier on in the path.

 

You mean 'the Veil of Pakoreth' ?

 

I think its better to see these things as veils.

 

Abyss seems to relate to the idea of what you have to 'loose' to be able to rise up above a certain 'viewpoint'. From 'below' its more of a veil to a level we cant quiet see into from where we stand.

[Nungali]

*grumble* *grumble* *grumble* Enochian magic has nothing to do with Crowley. It came about centuries before he was even conceived *grumble*. (though he did go and swap things around later and come up with his own very odd theories about parts of it and grab bits he liked and stuff it into his own system of symbolism) *grumble*

 

LOL

 

Edit to add: *grumble* no such thing as any "abyss" or Kronzon hanging out in the 10th aethyre in the original Enochian diaries *grumble*.

 

Of course the real aethys ( prod prod ... < listens for more grumbles > ) were described in the Llewellyn books by .... ( oh dear his name has been forgotten) who points out very clearly if you dont defeat dude .... at level ... with your .... you fail!

 

No wait ... that's dungeons and dragons .... no wait ... that is enochian magic !

 

Actually you will fail if your experiences aren't the same as his

[Nungali]

Yep.

One name...

 

Choronzon.

 

Crowley was a great mountaineer but a notorious plagiarist ripping off Dee and Kelly.

 

 

 

I do believe that a plagiarist is someone who copies others work without acknowledging others sources; using someone else's ideas as if they were their own.

 

So I guess you are claiming that Crowley didnt acknowledge Dee and Kelly?

 

In any case he may not have needed to .... being a reincarnation of Dee himself .

 

 

< prod prod .... listens for BKA and ZYT grumbling >

Edited July 28, 2014 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Actually you will fail if your experiences aren't the same as his

How many times before have I heard that? Hehehe.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I do believe that a plagiarist is someone who copies others work without acknowledging others sources; using someone else's ideas as if they were their own.

 

So I guess you are claiming that Crowley didnt acknowledge Dee and Kelly?

 

In any case he may not have needed to .... being a reincarnation of Dee himself .

 

 

< prod prod .... listens for BKA and ZYT grumbling > (Empahsis mine, ZYD)

 

He claimed to be a reincarnation of Kelly.

[Nungali]

Well ,Im glad Kali will only need me to be sincere,

because I sincerely dont care to have gay sex in the desert sun.

 

Thats supposed to be a step toward divinity !?

 

Thanks, Ill bow out

 

Just be careful who is behind you when you bow ...

[Nungali]

In Crowley's case, he felt so, yes. But it is an example. For myself I personally made myself go to a Christian church and attend a service. If you can see how these 2 things, his method and mine are similar you have the picture.

 

So ... you went to a Christian Church to get some gay sex did you ? Whatever ..... do what thou wilt

[Nungali]

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

 

Did you write that ?

[Nungali]

To go back and quote from the Wikipedia article:

 

 

In the Golden Dawn and earlier traditions the Abyss was the abode of the Qliphoth, the abode of 'evil' spirits and the usages derive ultimately from the Greek concept of Tartarus where the Titans were imprisioned, thus my earlier reference to Hades and Tartarus. Hades is simply the abode of the dead, run by a respectable Olympian, Zeus' brother, Tartarus is the abode of 'cosmic' criminals, confined because they would mess up everything. The whole matter is very complex, both historically and in terms of the Golden Dawn's teaching on the matter. Right now I don't have time to say much more about this background.

 

Orignally the abyss was certainly not something that you 'went through', it was something that you passed over or around somehow and falling into it would have been considered to be like falling into a cosmic cesspool.

 

Crowley introduced his approach to it because he wanted to at least claim the grade of Magus, the second of the grades beyond the abyss, so that he could claim to be 'Magus of the New Eon' and for that reason, he had to get accross the abyss. Depending on ones attitude to Crowley, it is spiritual insight or a manifestation of his megalomania.

 

yes, good distinction between the two types ... which often seems confused in modern western magick .

 

The first, I am wondering if it a type of receptacle, or containment of aberrant, 'mutated' or averse 'Platonic Forms' (for want of a better expression) .... possibly that relates to a 'qlippoth' concept ?

 

'Crossing it' seems to have got this concept mixed up with another.

 

Crowley as a 'To Mega Lomanion' is an interesting subject ... i wrote a paper on 'Magical Madness' examining that and other ideas relating to ; can magical practice balance psychological imbalances , should we let those with mental health issues into magical practice, etc, it didnt get a good reception ... but with some of you here, you might be able to read it with more of an open mind.

 

(PS I really dont think it was that much of a 'trial over aversion' for Crowley to involve himself with gay sex ... in the desert or elsewhere )

[Nungali]

Paroketh is known as the 'Veil of Illusion' because the traveler approaching from Yesod will see reflected back at him all of his unresolved fear and desire, projected into forms that appear 'objectively' real. If the traveler has a strong belief system, this will be projected and appear to be real, and the traveler may believe that he has passed through the Veil when in fact he is still lost in an illusion made up of his own preconceptions.

 

(shameless plagiarism)

[Nungali]

He claimed to be a reincarnation of Kelly.

Oh ! ... You know more about him than I do!