What the hell is the abyss anyways?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Maybe of interest for all of you who are interested in crossing the Abyss.

 

http://www.theomagica.com/on-crossing-the-abyss

 

>Chris<

 

Interesting article, thank you .

 

Though I feel he's talking about the smaller abyss here, the one just before Tiphereth (if using a ceremonial magick version tree of life map). The 10 years minimum part also confirms this, as 12-15 years seems a common time for that particular experience, from what I have seen from several magicians. (though some who practice less or are in no hurry it may take longer). I would be curious to see what he thinks of his experiences in say 10 years after the fact. (It's entirely possible he did write this 10 years after the fact, but I don't think so).

 

On a different topic, I'm not sure what he means by returning. I feel you don't ever "return" from such things. Though it is very likely it is just the wording I'm at odds with, not the actual concept. I figure he just means "afterwards". If we return, we are sort of going backwards, due to the experience being a bit much or whatever.

 

Also, what he describes happens all the time throughout the magician's practice, just of varying degrees . If this sort of thing does not happen at least a few times along the path, you are likely not doing the work, imo. I mean to lesser degrees than crossing any abysses, but still quite profound. If one has not going through a complete transformation at least a few times, some more inner work is needed, IMO.

 

While no formal ritual is needed for the KCHGA, to fully get rid of "self" fully and for long enough to fully unite with one's HGA something more than self directed is required, again from my experience and all I've seen. I've known a lot of magicians....

 

Crossing the abyss, hmmm, after reading ZYD's thoughts on the matter, I think perhaps taking a boat over instead of hiking down into the vast ravine, then back up, might be a better approach .

[Seth Ananda]

Hmm, In Isaac Luria's Kabbalah its described quite differently to the more Hermetic Qabalah, if my memory serves me...? lol.

 

It isn't an actual place or thing, and certainly has no beings living within it. It is the 'false' limitation of our individual perception, that stops us from seeing the supernals or Divinity in everything, the oneness, the connectivity and all the other good Divine stuff.

 

One doesn't really cross it, but rather realises that it was never there to begin with...

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hmm, In Isaac Luria's Kabbalah its described quite differently to the more Hermetic Qabalah, if my memory serves me...? lol.

 

It isn't an actual place or thing, and certainly has no beings living within it. It is the 'false' limitation of our individual perception, that stops us from seeing the supernals or Divinity in everything, the oneness, the connectivity and all the other good Divine stuff.

 

One doesn't really cross it, but rather realises that it was never there to begin with...

 

Modern Hermetic Kabbalah is quite a bit different than any of the older Kabbalah actually .

 

Now taking a guess, that inverted tree stuff is newfangled too?

[Nungali]

It isn't an actual place or thing, and certainly has no beings living within it. It is the 'false' limitation of our individual perception, that stops us from seeing the supernals or Divinity in everything, the oneness, the connectivity and all the other good Divine stuff.

 

 

One doesn't really cross it, but rather realises that it was never there to begin with...

I wonder where the 'abyss' term came from ...in some traditions isnt it described as a veil?

 

Abyss connotates a need to leap or jump across or pass through. IMO it seems more a matter of dispelling the veil, or being able to see through it and only see from this side. There is a tradition of 'penetrating it though. Maybe some get caught up in the process, as if the veil was a bank of fog.

 

For me it separates the unknowable ideal realm before form takes form .... we can only know it by observing its effects and symbols.

 

Obviously I havent crossed the Abyss,

Edited July 31, 2014 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hmm, In Isaac Luria's Kabbalah its described quite differently to the more Hermetic Qabalah, if my memory serves me...? lol.

 

It isn't an actual place or thing, and certainly has no beings living within it. It is the 'false' limitation of our individual perception, that stops us from seeing the supernals or Divinity in everything, the oneness, the connectivity and all the other good Divine stuff.

 

One doesn't really cross it, but rather realises that it was never there to begin with...

 

Personally, I rather agree with a position more like what Seth Ananda describes here, though that is rather more based on my study of Platonism than Qabalah, and while I studied many flavors of Qabalah, forty and more years ago, I could not say for sure whether this is the Lurianic Qabalah or not. On the other hand:

 

Modern Hermetic Kabbalah is quite a bit different than any of the older Kabbalah actually .

 

Now taking a guess, that inverted tree stuff is newfangled too? (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I spent a lot of time in the early Seventies with Mather's Kabbalah Unveiled, an English translation of Knorr von Rosenroth's Seventeenth Century translation of certain key texts of the Zohar into Latin and available online here:

 

Mather's, The Kabbalah Unveiled

 

And I quote from that source:

 

60. The fourth is the Asiatic world, OVLM HOShIH, Olahm Ha-Asia, the world of action, called

also the world of shells, OVLM HQLIPVTh, Olahm Ha-Qliphoth, which is this world of matter, made up of the grosser elements of the other three. In it is also the abode of the evil spirits which are called "the shells" by the Qabalah, QLIPVTh, Qliphoth, material shells. The devils are also divided into ten classes, and have suitable habitations. (See Table.)

61. The Demons are the grossest and most deficient of all forms. Their ten degrees answer to the decad of the Sephiroth, but in inverse ratio, as darkness and impurity increase with the descent of each degree. The two first are nothing but absence of visible form and organization. The third is the abode of darkness. Next follow seven Hells occupied by those demons which represent incarnate human vices, and torture those who have given themselves up to such vices in earth-life. Their prince is Samael, SMAL, the angel of poison and of death. His wife is the harlot, or woman of whoredom, AShTh ZNVNIM, Isheth Zenunim; and united they are called the beast, CHIVA, Chioa. Thus the infernal trinity is completed, which is, so to speak, the averse and caricature of the supernal Creative One. Samael is considered to be identical with Satan. (S. L. MacGregor-Mathers, The Kabbalah Unveiled, Introduction, p. 29-30, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I can assure you that the notions of the Qliphoth go back to the Zohar and the Middle Ages. As can be seen there is mention of an averse Tree and a hierarchy of demons. That is from the introduction, but is traditional, however the Zoharic texts are not that detailed in their discussion, but rather deal with the basic doctrine:

 

41. Now, we find that before the Deity conformed Himself thus--i.e., as male and female--that the worlds of the universe could not subsist, or, in the words of Genesis, "The earth was formless and void." These prior worlds are considered to be symbolized by the "kings who reigned in Edom before there reigned a king in Israel," and they are therefore spoken of in the Qabalah as the "Edomite kings." This will be found fully explained in various parts of this work. (Introduction, p. 22, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

and

 

But according to the Qabalah, before the complete form of the heavenly man (the ten Sephiroth) was produced, there were certain primordial worlds created, but these could not subsist, as the equilibrium of balance was not yet perfect, and they were convulsed by the unbalanced force and destroyed. These primordial worlds are called the "kings of ancient time," and the "kings of Edom who reigned before the monarchs of Israel." In this sense, Edom is the world of unbalanced force, and Israel is the balanced Sephiroth (Gen. xxxvi. 31). This important fact, that worlds were created and destroyed prior to the present creation, is again and again reiterated in the Zohar. (Introduction, p. 29, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Also Daath and the word 'abyss' can be found in the index of the book, but is not online and I cannot summarize those contents here, except to say that the word 'abyss' is used several ways. This book was first published in 1888 and was probably considered authoritative within the Golden Dawn, though there were also some 'esoteric' order teachings which are very interesting, but nothing like Crowley. Crowley, his followers and inheritors, certainly freely extrapolated on these.

 

All of these issues are way more complext than my short notes would imply.

[Asmo]

@BKA

 

"The 10 years minimum part also confirms this, as 12-15 years seems a common time for that particular experience, from what I have seen from several magicians."

 

Can't say much about this as i don't know many but on his site is a link to his first teacher who is still teaching.

It takes approximately 51 months to reach Adeptus minor V°, from there another 54 to reach Magus VIII°.

So i can reasonably conclude that he talks about the Abyss and not the Veil of Paroketh.

 

Frater Acher talks about the Veil of Paroketh aka the smaller abyss here:

http://www.theomagica.com/the-dweller-on-the-threshold/

 

o\

>Chris<

[Marblehead]

 

Obviously I havent crossed the Abyss,

Good thoughts there. Worthy of further consideration, I think.

 

No, I'm not going to help you think on this one. (That's a personal journey.)

[idiot_stimpy]

Very interesting links, thank you

[idiot_stimpy]

Is the Veil of Paroketh similar to seeing the emptiness of self, and the Abyss similar to see the emptiness of phenomena?

[BaguaKicksAss]

@BKA

 

"The 10 years minimum part also confirms this, as 12-15 years seems a common time for that particular experience, from what I have seen from several magicians."

 

Can't say much about this as i don't know many but on his site is a link to his first teacher who is still teaching.

It takes approximately 51 months to reach Adeptus minor V°, from there another 54 to reach Magus VIII°.

So i can reasonably conclude that he talks about the Abyss and not the Veil of Paroketh.

 

Frater Acher talks about the Veil of Paroketh aka the smaller abyss here:

http://www.theomagica.com/the-dweller-on-the-threshold/

 

o\

>Chris<

 

Someone having crossed the abyss, and gotten past most of their ego in less than 10 years? Not from what I have ever seen in the few hundred ceremonial magickians I have met over the years. I beleive that most orders rush people through the grades far too quickly and give them a much higher level/rank than they have achieved. I have mostly seen no indication of letting go of most of the ego by that time in most unfortunately. In all actuality about that time period it usually seems quite enhanced (in a bad way). Yes I mean folks with teachers in lodges.

 

Also the tree of life map, is from start to finish (enlightenment, godhead, or such), kether being finish.. would logically take a lifetime to get there. The average magician would spend 50-60 years at this. So if getting up to Binah in 10.... making it most of the way there with that little practice, even if done daily (most don't do more than half an hour to an hour per day, if even daily), I'm very very highly doubtful of.

 

There are some folks who beleive you can't get to binah in your physical body... while I wouldn't go quite that far, I don't feel you can make binah as a regular centered in thoughts and ego still having most control, state.

 

There are some folks I've met who have been at it over 40 years, and if they use that particular map, I would say they have made it that far.

 

Though now I'm sort of curious, and I'm going to ask some golden dawn folks I know, and discuss my thoughts on it .

[3bob]

"You know the prayer 'Holy God, Holy the Firm, Holy the Immortal'? This prayer comes from ancient knowledge. Holy God means the Absolute or All. Holy the Firm also means the Absolute or Nothing. Holy the Immortal signifies that which is between them, that is, the six notes of the ray of creation, with organic life. All three taken together make one. This is the coexistent and indivisible Trinity".

From "In search of the Miraculous"

[Stosh]

In Crowley's case, he felt so, yes. But it is an example. For myself I personally made myself go to a Christian church and attend a service. If you can see how these 2 things, his method and mine are similar you have the picture.

Yes , I can , ,, santa Claus creeped me out as a kid. It wasnt the suit ,or the beard or any of that really , it was the juxtaposition of adults all acting like it was real , when It clearly wasnt , that lent the situation a bizzaro unhealthy crazy flavor. And I can see perhaps the stained glass and hanging corpses , turns a church into a bizzarro dungeon , OR it could be sentiments about being out of ones territory , alienated , jugement and hell etc etc.

 

I wonder if phobias revolve around the need to maintain ones sanity...

anyway however that may be , clearly the idea is that by dealing with things one rebels against there may be potential for growth,, thing is, that I dont think every growth is desirable, I like my ego worldview gender identity etc and transgression of those , intentional humiliation of those , I just dont consider to be growth Id want.

People also grow cold , confused , angry, insecure etc.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yes , I can , ,, santa Claus creeped me out as a kid. It wasnt the suit ,or the beard or any of that really , it was the juxtaposition of adults all acting like it was real , when It clearly wasnt , that lent the situation a bizzaro unhealthy crazy flavor. And I can see perhaps the stained glass and hanging corpses , turns a church into a bizzarro dungeon , OR it could be sentiments about being out of ones territory , alienated , jugement and hell etc etc.

 

I wonder if phobias revolve around the need to maintain ones sanity...

anyway however that may be , clearly the idea is that by dealing with things one rebels against there may be potential for growth,, thing is, that I dont think every growth is desirable, I like my ego worldview gender identity etc and transgression of those , intentional humiliation of those , I just dont consider to be growth Id want.

People also grow cold , confused , angry, insecure etc.

 

Actually it was more disgust than fear...

 

I had not heard of religion until I was 12 years old, then I found this halloween mask, and asked my parents what it was. It was the devil apparently. So I got a brief 5 minute synopsis on god and the devil. Didn't hear about religion again until I was 15... when the completely and totally insane christians in my city would scream that I was the devil, or possessed or a demon. Apparently heavy metal tshirts terrified these poor pathetic folks! That definitely didn't give me the best impression of them; I figured mean and crazy lol. Remember the whole satanic panic of the 80's? Yeah that. My other experience with them has been them knocking at my door trying to sell me something (their religion) so I viewed the like I do every door to door salesman.... Anyways, fortunately in my 30's I met some really nice and grounded christians who actually followed their path. This definitely changed my view on the whole thing. Though I was still a little annoyed at the whole witch trials thing. I figured going to church would be a good exercise; I'd never been to one. I found it quite boring actually, some guy just lecturing at you, no actual spiritual work during the service??? Perhaps I should have gone to catholic mass, I hear they are much ore interesting .

 

Now about the whole you have to have same sex relations for a particular degree in the order... sounds pretty fishy to me! Less fishy if Crowley didn't get anything out of it. Anyways, no one should ever have to do sexual practices they are uncomfortable with, imo, especially in the name of spirituality. I think they call that a cult or something. Now if the person is fine with it and feels it would help them, then by all means... but requirement? I feel that's just as bad as religions and groups who state no sex. controlling diet and sex are 2 of the primary things on the "is this a cult" checklist.

[GrandmasterP]

A 'cult' is a religion without political power.

Most religions began life as cults and gradually gained political power.

The ones that don't gain political power remain as cults.

Hence...

Paganism is a cult whereas the Church of England is a religion.

Edited August 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Actually it was more disgust than fear...

 

I had not heard of religion until I was 12 years old, then I found this halloween mask, and asked my parents what it was. It was the devil apparently. So I got a brief 5 minute synopsis on god and the devil. Didn't hear about religion again until I was 15... when the completely and totally insane christians in my city would scream that I was the devil, or possessed or a demon. Apparently heavy metal tshirts terrified these poor pathetic folks! That definitely didn't give me the best impression of them; I figured mean and crazy lol. Remember the whole satanic panic of the 80's? Yeah that. My other experience with them has been them knocking at my door trying to sell me something (their religion) so I viewed the like I do every door to door salesman.... Anyways, fortunately in my 30's I met some really nice and grounded christians who actually followed their path. This definitely changed my view on the whole thing. Though I was still a little annoyed at the whole witch trials thing. I figured going to church would be a good exercise; I'd never been to one. I found it quite boring actually, some guy just lecturing at you, no actual spiritual work during the service??? Perhaps I should have gone to catholic mass, I hear they are much ore interesting .

 

Now about the whole you have to have same sex relations for a particular degree in the order... sounds pretty fishy to me! Less fishy if Crowley didn't get anything out of it. Anyways, no one should ever have to do sexual practices they are uncomfortable with, imo, especially in the name of spirituality. I think they call that a cult or something. Now if the person is fine with it and feels it would help them, then by all means... but requirement? I feel that's just as bad as religions and groups who state no sex. controlling diet and sex are 2 of the primary things on the "is this a cult" checklist.

Catholic Masses can be done in different manners , there could be singing of various types , it could be presented in different fashions,, but I agree , no , there is little real spiritual work done at a christian mass IMO, ( its quite a stark thing from my perspective now just how SO... that is) the sentiments are generally private though there are actions which occasion certain sentiments , like confession , communion , psalms ,,etc.

The church of my childhood was gothically beautiful , and the holiday services were really grand , If you do end up going to a catholic mass A ) just copy everyone else, and B.) go for Christmas. they may have candles and flowers and frankincense going on.

 

In some versions of Taoism one 'unites Yin and Yang ' physically with an unimportant partner and irrespective of 'evil-lust based sentiments' ... just sayin'

Edited August 1, 2014 by Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Say whatever one likes about Roman Catholics but they have some transcendentally beautiful music....

 

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[silent thunder]

true enough, although the phrase that comes to mind is

'even a broken clock is right twice a day' (amended: analog that is)

[Stosh]

true enough, although the phrase that comes to mind is

'even a broken clock is right twice a day' (amended: analog that is)

Hey now! credit where credit is due !

Edited August 1, 2014 by Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Mount Saint Bernard Abbey is just up the road from us.

http://www.mountsaintbernard.org/

Those are Strict Cistercians ( Trappists).

It's a popular drive out for an afternoon, they have a tea shop and really nice gardens, very peaceful.

A jollier crowd of guys you could not hope to meet.

One old monk does paintings to order and did one from a photo of our dogs, pretty darn good it is too and it was all I could do to make a donation towards the cost. He wasn't for accepting anything.

Another monk does really nice pottery.

Factor out the shonky dogma and I reckon that for those who are suited to it that's not a bad way to live.

Edited August 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[silent thunder]

Hey now! credit where credit is due !

no idea who came up with that one... who was it?

 

there are so few original jokes... much like songs, they are heavily recycled.

[GrandmasterP]

no idea who came up with that one... who was it?

 

there are so few original jokes... much like songs, they are heavily recycled.

 

The oldest recorded British joke dates back to the 10th Century and reveals the bawdy face of the Anglo-Saxons --

Q: "What hangs at a man's thigh and wants to poke the hole that it's often poked before?"

 

A: " A key."

[silent thunder]

my son laid this one on me:

 

what did the ocean say to the beach?

 

nothing, it just waved

[Nungali]

Actually it was more disgust than fear...

 

I had not heard of religion until I was 12 years old, then I found this halloween mask, and asked my parents what it was. It was the devil apparently. So I got a brief 5 minute synopsis on god and the devil. Didn't hear about religion again until I was 15... when the completely and totally insane christians in my city would scream that I was the devil, or possessed or a demon. Apparently heavy metal tshirts terrified these poor pathetic folks! That definitely didn't give me the best impression of them; I figured mean and crazy lol. Remember the whole satanic panic of the 80's? Yeah that. My other experience with them has been them knocking at my door trying to sell me something (their religion) so I viewed the like I do every door to door salesman.... Anyways, fortunately in my 30's I met some really nice and grounded christians who actually followed their path. This definitely changed my view on the whole thing. Though I was still a little annoyed at the whole witch trials thing. I figured going to church would be a good exercise; I'd never been to one. I found it quite boring actually, some guy just lecturing at you, no actual spiritual work during the service??? Perhaps I should have gone to catholic mass, I hear they are much ore interesting .

 

Now about the whole you have to have same sex relations for a particular degree in the order... sounds pretty fishy to me! Less fishy if Crowley didn't get anything out of it. Anyways, no one should ever have to do sexual practices they are uncomfortable with, imo, especially in the name of spirituality. I think they call that a cult or something. Now if the person is fine with it and feels it would help them, then by all means... but requirement? I feel that's just as bad as religions and groups who state no sex. controlling diet and sex are 2 of the primary things on the "is this a cult" checklist.

 

Sorry ... I was just reading that and got to the last paragraph and thought WTF? I am not sure how that relates and links to the para befor it or to the rest or what it refers to .

 

Did I miss a bit ?

 

The only sense I can seem to make of it is you are suddenly referring to the OTO (since you mentioned 'order' and 'Crowley' and the subject matter).

 

Are you saying you also considered the OTO as some type of other option as outlined in your second para ? But got put off as you thought you would be forced into some type of same sex activity?

 

If you are, and the last para is a follow on, you really got some bad and wrong info there. Compulsory sex with anyone is NOT part of the OTO and actually goes against the whole concept of 'Love Under Will' and Crowley's comments and writings on it.

 

Who fed you that stuff ... it wasnt Kenneth Grant 'OTO' stuff was it ? (or was it some pseudo 'initiate' dyke that fancied you and couldnt come up with a better line ? )

 

Seriously, if any one tries this on you, especially claiming to be OTO , punch them in the face !

 

" -Review of Ida Craddock’s “Heavenly Bridegrooms” in “The Tank” from The Equinox III:1 - Crowley ' *

“There shall be no property in human flesh. The sex-instinct is one of the most deeply-seated expressions of the will; and it must not be restricted, either negatively by preventing its free function, or positively by insisting on its false function. What is more brutal than to stunt natural growth or to deform it? What is more absurd than to seek to interpret this holy instinct as a gross animal act, to separate it from the spiritual enthusiasm without which it is so stupid as not even to be satisfactory to the persons concerned?

The sexual act is a sacrament of Will. To profane it is the great offence. All true expression of it is lawful; all suppression or distortion is contrary to the Law of Liberty. To use legal or financial constraint to compel either abstention or submission, is entirely horrible, unnatural and absurd.”

 

* remember Ida .. from the other thread? The sexual and tantric educator that got put in an asylum ?

 

http://www.idacraddock.com/

 

The above views and Ida's stance and moral fortitude against sexual repression are of the sort initiates in the OTO should emulate and revere. If there are people in the OTO going around suggesting such things as you seemed to be outlining BKA .... may the dogs devour their carcassess, may they mutilated and be no more a man (or woman) ... thats a magical law ... you try to rape someone, you might just end up loosing the 'equipment' to do so ... anyone that is in the OTO should know that.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Nungali

[BaguaKicksAss]

Nah that was my reply to the post above, the person commenting about he feels the whole same gender sex thing isn't his personal preference for a spiritual system method .

[Nungali]

Nah that was my reply to the post above, the person commenting about he feels the whole same gender sex thing isn't his personal preference for a spiritual system method .

 

Oh good ... then I wont have to put Mrs Nungali on to tear strips off you ....

 

I had to trace all those quotes, quoting quotes to find out what you meant .... not wanting gay sex in the desert sun comment.

 

Still, dont see how that relates to any Order as such and ' you have to have same sex relations for a particular degree in the order' and ' ut requirement? ' ... unless there is some Crowley Order based on his personal take on Enochian (puts hands up above head ... backs into corner - no I am not defending them ... he was on strong drugs too - heaven forbid ! )

 

... anyway, I am glad you didnt have to go Bagua all over a Typhonian Dike's butt

 

.... with your little 'tickler'

 

.