Question on when to breathe in this practice (video)

[4bsolute]

As I have already posted before, but have to post again, due to lack of knowledge (on my side) and lack of proper translation on side of the author of this video (which you will see in the video).

 

When do you breathe in, in this video and when to you breathe out?

 

The practice does require (to my understanding) only one in-breath, when raising the arms at the beginning and then holding the breath, when turning the hands and pushing upwards from the shoulders. Keep holding the breath until you push your single hand outward, coming back and both hands down. Then he says "now breathe again".

 

Inbetween he is translating his knowledge unclear, so I might have grasped two version. The one I have just explained or the other one in which you breathe out, right in the beginning, when you have raised your arms, pushing up, slowly slowly breathing out until you are finished, pushed the hand forward, coming back and down. Then breathing in again.

 

One in-breath and holding the breath, out-breath after pushing hand outward, coming back and both hands down? Or one large outbreath, really really slow?

 

 

I did it by holding the breath. Required a getting used to. But the sensations after being able to breathe again, is fantastic. Not speaking of how much nonphysical energy you are gathering by not-breathing.

Edited July 29, 2014 by 4bsolute

[Marblehead]

I claim no knowledge but I do have experience regarding this so I will share it.

 

It has always been my understanding that one breathes in when pulling the body in and breathes out when pushing the body out. This is (unless intentionally altered) a natural process. It is my opinion that whatever exercises we do we should keep them as natural as possible. In this way we can use the full potential of our energy.

[Stosh]

I tiried a breath like that last night but got confused.

But, is he saying raise the ribs first in breathing in ( concentrating toward the top )

then expand the gut ( concentrating from the bottom up) , all as breathing in ,,

and then doing the reverse breathing out?

Im thinking that would use the full lung capacity and increase the duration of the air being at increased pressure.

[soaring crane]

I don't think it's a good idea to practice something like that based off a YouTube video. You'd really need a lot of instruction and practice to get any kind of positive results, conversely you probably just get cramped up doing it on your own.

 

My suggestion: try the movements but breathe naturally and harmoniously while doing it. Stay soft and supple.

[Daeluin]

Here is what I've been taught about breathing where I train.

 

The breathing should be heard only by the mind.

The breath should be natural and not stopped.

We breath in from the third eye down to the lower dan tien.

 

In application, we practice regular breathing, not reverse breathing. By only hearing the breath with the mind, we cultivate a very refined breath that is less about wind and more about energy, and naturally works more from the 3rd eye area rather than the nose area. By not stopping the breathing we maintain its natural rhythm - changes to the rhythm might allow exploration of different sensations, but the simplicity and purity of the cycle is more important.

 

Over time the lower dan tien fills with refined energy, and in emptiness one naturally begins to withdraw the yin phase of the breath rather than exhale with the yin phase of the breath, and one naturally begins to reverse breathe. At this point however the reverse breathing isn't just in one dan tien, but all three, and the whole body must be completely empty of though/emotion, and one begins to oxidize.

 

The breath slows naturally on it own... I think somewhere in The Secret of the Golden Flower is mentioned the aim is to refine the breath so that it is deep, but light, and ultimately the process feels like your mind is holding the strings of the marionette, directing everything, and yet the focus is everywhere but the mind. That's how it felt for me anyway.

 

So I don't think it is natural to try to emulate the slow breathing one might see in a demonstration. Adjust the speed so that it is slow but without straining the breath, and let it become slower with refinement rather than force.

[soaring crane]

Daeluin - what you write is of course very good information. But there are myriad approaches to breath work, and some pretty far out methods. Those techniques afaik generally occur within longer systems and have specific functions within those systems. See my post above, also see the video in question :-)

[ChiDragon]

As a rule of thumb for all breathing exercises....

At the initialize position:
One starts with the body in a relaxed position and exhale most of the air out. The movement should be coordinated with the breathing and vice versa. That said, one should start inhale as soon one moves the hands upward. When the hands reached to its peak position, that is where the inhalation stops. As soon the hands are going down, that is where the exhalation starts. Until the hands reach the lowest position, that is where the exhalation ends. There should be, only, a short pause in breathing between the time when the hands change position going toward the opposite position. For other words, breathing stops when the movement stops. Resume breathing when the movement starts again. One should never hold the breath while the body is in motion.

If one moves slow, then the breathing is slow. The breath should go as deep as possible. The realm is to have the breath reach deep down to the lower dan tian. However, one should never force the breath down to the LDT. It will happen one day after a long period of diligent practice.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

I for one ,like the advice being mentioned , but as a point of curiosity , what the heck is reversed breathing?

continual swinging back and forth , is the same as swinging forth and back continually, isnt it?

[ChiDragon]

Reverse breathing is when the abdomen was contracted during inhalation; and expands during exhalation. In normal breathing, it is the opposite.

[Stosh]

Well that does make a sense for the term, but a book said that it mimicked the breathing of a baby

( which as adults we dont usually copy)

but then said that the reason why the baby does it is because the ribs arent as forceful a bellows.

This belly against ribs plan seems like it would be less effective at oxygenation, is my source here confused? or is it still just me.

[ChiDragon]

No, it was not still just you.

The lungs of a baby are not fully developed to breathe yet. That is why they breathe with the abdomen.

[soaring crane]

Well that does make a sense for the term, but a book said that it mimicked the breathing of a baby

 

no, not baby -- embryo/fetus. It's umbilical breathing and practicing it can reignite the original condition. We've all practiced it for roughly nine months, and we were generally in a pretty good state of mind at that time. It's necessary for certain esoteric Daoist practices. It's quite profound, and more natural than it at first sounds.

[Stosh]

I claim no knowledge but I do have experience regarding this so I will share it.

 

It has always been my understanding that one breathes in when pulling the body in and breathes out when pushing the body out. This is (unless intentionally altered) a natural process. It is my opinion that whatever exercises we do we should keep them as natural as possible. In this way we can use the full potential of our energy.

By 'body ' I assume you mean gestures not gut right?

[Stosh]

no, not baby -- embryo/fetus. It's umbilical breathing and practicing it can reignite the original condition. We've all practiced it for roughly nine months, and we were generally in a pretty good state of mind at that time. It's necessary for certain esoteric Daoist practices. It's quite profound, and more natural than it at first sounds.

OOOHH ! , now I get the idea ( chi wise ,, though not exactly physically ' what to move -when' ) that the energies are to be sourced as from the umbilical area. Got it.

So if one is breathing in as from the third eye area , its the mental projection , not that Im supposed to feel the air going through my sinuses. Im supposed to be drawing a different mental picture than my normal body arangement associates with sensory info.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

....., its the mental projection , not that Im supposed to feel the air going through my sinuses.

 

Even though, you think "not that Im supposed to feel the air going through my sinuses" but just be sure it happens. Then, everything will be alright.

[Marblehead]

By 'body ' I assume you mean gestures not gut right?

Yes, the entire body. The inhale activates energy and the exhale releases it. But I do know that allowing the gut to expand when inhaling allows for a much deeper breathing as well as a slower breathing rate.

[Daeluin]

And this is why breathing is confusing.

 

Uh... I'm not expert at any of this, but here's what I can share from my experience.

 

Reverse breathing is when the abdomen was contracted during inhalation; and expands during exhalation. In normal breathing, it is the opposite.

 

So energy wise, in normal breathing the qi expands from the lower dan tien with the inhale, and contracts with the exhale. In reverse breathing one inhales the energy into the center of the dan tien, and on the exhale it issues out.

 

When putting movement to this, it might be better to focus on the expansion and contraction of the dan tien rather than the inhale or the exhale. There can be multiple breathing cycles to one expansion or contraction.

 

 

no, not baby -- embryo/fetus. It's umbilical breathing and practicing it can reignite the original condition. We've all practiced it for roughly nine months, and we were generally in a pretty good state of mind at that time. It's necessary for certain esoteric Daoist practices. It's quite profound, and more natural than it at first sounds.

 

And this isn't just reverse breathing - reverse breathing can be controlled. But fetal breathing is in sync with something deeper. I only feel it when I get to a super empty and refined state where the breathing is smooth, and then I notice a rise and fall, or perhaps an ebb and flow, that is separate from my breath. If I'm able to surrender myself enough I might be able to let the rise and fall of my breath become one with this other breath... and then all remaining ego just melts away.

 

OOOHH ! , now I get the idea ( chi wise ,, though not exactly physically ' what to move -when' ) that the energies are to be sourced as from the umbilical area. Got it.

So if one is breathing in as from the third eye area , its the mental projection , not that Im supposed to feel the air going through my sinuses. Im supposed to be drawing a different mental picture than my normal body arangement associates with sensory info.

 

I'll offer my opinion on this... this is just what makes sense to me, not anything I was taught. When I breathe through my nose, I feel the air enter from the nostrils at the bottom and move upwards. The nose is somewhat triangular, flat on the bottom with a point at the top between the eyebrows. When I breathe, I am aware of the air coming up from the bottom, but also the qi, which I feel throughout the whole nose, but most refined at the top between the eyes. The finer the breath, the finer the qi. I'm not sure about mental pictures and such; when I do it the mind is empty and unattached. Before I started noticing this, I did a lot of tai chi and qi gong to dissolve the body and mind with the qi, so this type of understanding is bound to be very different for others.

 

Even though, you think "not that Im supposed to feel the air going through my sinuses" but just be sure it happens. Then, everything will be alright.

 

The idea isn't to not feel the breath, but to make it finer - you still feel it. If you cover your ears with your hands and breathe, you'll notice it's easier to hear your breath. Try softening the breath until you can't hear it, and notice the quality of qi. When covering your ears. it helps to do so with the palms over the ears, the fingers going back behind the head, and the elbows sicking up. Relax your shoulders and let this posture straighten the spine. We focus on breathing into the lower dan tien the whole time.

 

As Soaring Crane mentioned, there are myriad approaches to breath work, and it sounds like this video might have specific purposes with the breath that are very different from what I've learned. Sorry to derail, just wanted to answer some of the questions that my last post stirred up.

[dawei]

When do you breathe in, in this video and when to you breathe out?

 

The practice does require (to my understanding) only one in-breath, when raising the arms at the beginning and then holding the breath, when turning the hands and pushing upwards from the shoulders. Keep holding the breath until you push your single hand outward, coming back and both hands down. Then he says "now breathe again".

 

This is correct.

 

video example time vs breathing:

 

3:18 - start inhale

3:22 - hold breath (hands turn to sky)

4:02 - exhale

 

Inbetween he is translating his knowledge unclear, so I might have grasped two version. The one I have just explained or the other one in which you breathe out, right in the beginning, when you have raised your arms, pushing up, slowly slowly breathing out until you are finished, pushed the hand forward, coming back and down. Then breathing in again.

 

To get to the video goal, you probably want to first follow a natural point of inhale and exhale and then find the places where you can begin to skip.

 

 

By the time you get to doing the video goal, it is not 'holding the breath' as much as it is umbilical breathing (mentioned by Soaring Crane).

 

You may want to do a thread (or here) on that topic. There is a book often recommended:

 

Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing

[dawei]

I for one ,like the advice being mentioned , but as a point of curiosity , what the heck is reversed breathing?

continual swinging back and forth , is the same as swinging forth and back continually, isnt it?

 

Interesting you mention swinging back and forth... there is a swaying back and forth which can be done at the sole of the feet... it grounds and releases and grounds and releases. One can sync that up with movements if they want.

[ChiDragon]

And this is why breathing is confusing.

When putting movement to this, it might be better to focus on the expansion and contraction of the dan tien rather than the inhale or the exhale. There can be multiple breathing cycles to one expansion or contraction.

 

Sorry, this is where your confusion was. The normal breathing rhythm, in one cycle, is the abdomen expands when inhale and contracts when exhale.

 

"There can be multiple breathing cycles to one expansion or contraction." is a big NO NO. This will break the breathing rhythm.

[Spotless]

This is not a particularly advanced practice in the sense of any danger in doing this on your own.

However, it is not something one just up and does easily (without cheating).

 

The exercise is done precisely as the teacher demonstrated though if he were not speaking it would have much better flow.

 

Eventually as you practice Qi Gong you will come to understand the breath in ways that cannot be understood by reading a thousand volumes on it - but I can tell you something that will come to your practice eventually and it may actually help to know:

 

In long effortless holding the muscles from the very back of your upper throat will withdraw back some of the fat and skin and give you a much large air passage. This is not something someone with a great deal of practice has trained themselves to do - it is something they will discover themselves doing as they attain these levels. It took me about 3 years of what some consider fairly intense practice to find myself doing this as I also found myself effortlessly holding without any breath for far longer than I had ever been comfortable with and still in no effort or concern and equally so while holding with a full breath.

 

It is somewhat like meditating in awareness out of trance for hours - you will find yourself more and more erect, more and more awake and more and more effortless in it. The spine will straighten up all by itself just as the back of your throat will widen as I have stated above.

In Qi Gong one does not become more and more relaxed, one becomes immersed in the elements above and below and without and within. Flows of energy into whirls of containment and compression and then flows outward, more aware and awake with each movement, all the joints oiled with energy and exchange. ( of course it depends on your particular practice and why you are there)

 

This is not a simple exercise shown on the video and yet at the end of the original post the poster says he did it - kudos to you!

 

On another VERY helpful note:

You will find this exercise nearly impossible after a meal or after a large glass or two of water - particularly if you are already overweight. Being overweight makes this tougher even if you have eaten nothing for a day and your bowels are empty.

 

I know this from experience:)

 

Regarding cheating - obviously you could hyperventilate prior to doing this and make it through easily - but then you did not actually do the deed and the only one you are fooling is yourself. How strange it then would be for you to be pissing on your boots and telling yourself it's raining?

Edited July 30, 2014 by Spotless

[soaring crane]

And this isn't just reverse breathing - reverse breathing can be controlled. But fetal breathing is in sync with something deeper.

 

 

just a short note to mention that the 'rising/sinking' motion in standing Qigong practice automatically induces the reverse breath, on a very subtle, effortless level. On rising, the belly will contract slightly all on it its own. This is commonly the motion to coordinate with the intake of fresh air/qi. On sinking, the belly will expand slightly, and then it's time to expel the old.

[Stosh]

_{Whats 'fine chi' versus ,,,coarse chi?}

[ChiDragon]

_{Whats 'fine chi' versus ,,,coarse chi?}

 

Good question....!!!

[ChiDragon]

The idea isn't to not feel the breath, but to make it finer - you still feel it. If you cover your ears with your hands and breathe, you'll notice it's easier to hear your breath. Try softening the breath until you can't hear it, and notice the quality of qi. When covering your ears. it helps to do so with the palms over the ears, the fingers going back behind the head, and the elbows sicking up. Relax your shoulders and let this posture straighten the spine. We focus on breathing into the lower dan tien the whole time.

 

The idea is to feel the breath/chi deep down in the lower dan tian which is more important than hearing it. It is very correct to "focus on breathing into the lower dan tien" the whole time. In Chinese term: 意守丹田(focus on the dan tian).