What the Hell?

[Marblehead]

Is no mind then a medatative thing , or is it a wordless ( un artifact ed , genuine )?

I agree with what GMP said.

 

But would like to add: it is a state of being without discrimination. That is because there are no dualities - no "this" and "that". You are not thinking, only being.

[GrandmasterP]

Yep.

When it 'works' there's balance.

Sorta like a fulcrum.

Easy enough to 'tip over' back into monkey mind ( for me anyhoo) but when it all sorta comes together then that's what makes the effort worth while.

Edited August 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Can one function when they are without discrimination , to say , work in the yard..

would one then not be able to descriminate that which is a weed?

 

If no mind is aspirational ( as in a thing to aspire to, but not achieve, because achievement of IT would end the aspiration for IT )

Would a sage also aspire to this no-mind,

or, already having this no-mind ,he no longer is able to do so much as pull a weed?

 

Or am I to read you GMP correctly that it is the antithesis of having ideas? , and exists only as a reduction in the number of ideas one has.

[Marblehead]

I still pull weeds and not my flower plants so I guess I'm not a Sage yet. Oh well.

 

Yes, we must discriminate in real life. And chop wood and carry water.

 

But when we feel stress building up it needs be released. For me, empty-minded meditation works wonders.

 

When Chuang Tzu spoke to this he was speaking with one of his students, discriminating between where the student was and where he should be and also discrinimating between the student and himself. It's not that we stay empty-minded. After meditation it back the the real world we go.

[Stosh]

I still pull weeds and not my flower plants so I guess I'm not a Sage yet. Oh well.

 

Yes, we must discriminate in real life. And chop wood and carry water.

 

But when we feel stress building up it needs be released. For me, empty-minded meditation works wonders.

 

When Chuang Tzu spoke to this he was speaking with one of his students, discriminating between where the student was and where he should be and also discrinimating between the student and himself. It's not that we stay empty-minded. After meditation it back the the real world we go.

Then no-mind is not wu wei?

[Marblehead]

Then no-mind is not wu wei?

Chidragon might disagree with me but my answer to that question is, No.

 

Although it is very easy to go into empty-minded meditation from the state of wu wei.

 

Remember, in the state of wu wei we are still conscious of everything around us and we are at time even taking action.

 

In meditation we are basically unconscious.

[Nungali]

Nice response. But I have no idea where to go with it as I agree with what you have presented.

 

But I will say that what you spoke of is why I practice "empty-minded" meditation. With a little luck some of it will rub off into my conscious living.

 

You can 'go' and carry agreement with you

 

Here is an observation: Once mind learns in concert with body, mind is not needed - brain, observation and reaction are, but mind is not needed. I know that as I often drive half of the 30 kilometers home from town with no mind what so ever. This was most noticeable when I would be driving home late, about 2- 4 am coming home from doing my radio show and then sometimes a bit of work at the bakery. After many years the road is very familiar.

 

​I am using my mind but it is somewhere different entirely. If conditions changed, my 'autonomous driver' would call mind back for assistance ... I noticed this most often in winter ... just before I would enter a bank of fog on the road , I would 'snap into it' and mind would be surprised that we had travelled quiet far, negotiated corners, braking gear changes, etc.

 

I find that remarkable and fascinating ... maintaining that 'mind-set' in a bokken match seems to really put the opponent off

 

 

 

Half my T.B.s post are written with no mind .....

Edited August 5, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Can one function when they are without discrimination , to say , work in the yard..

would one then not be able to descriminate that which is a weed?

 

Function better in some circumstances. I have been dealing with this potential weed infestation that came here on my car tyres . Its insidious, it can adapt its shape and form and hide and disguise itself; it has gone from a tall 1 metre high spiny shrub to a ground cover that spreads below the top of the grass ... of course it cant change its leaf profile. That is what my brain has learnt to identify. My mind has decided that I will focus on it to eliminate it - for some years now. Now I can let go of that, brain has learnt it. I can 'sense' where it is now, I walk along and stop and bend down and somewhere around it will be and I rip it out by the roots. Its nearly been eliminated.

 

I was talking to the oldest local neighbour farmer in town the other week ... a lovely old guy and VERY tuned in ... more than most realised ( I think he is magical shaman myself, but I keep that under wraps because he is also a very straight old Aussie dairy farmer ... but i notice hints in his conversation) , anyway, we were talking outside the bank and I started to get agitated and looked around and into the street planter .... there was some of that weed growing in it , I said "Excuse me, thats the source of my agitation." and started weeding the planter. He was most interested in what was happening.

 

If no mind is aspirational ( as in a thing to aspire to, but not achieve, because achievement of IT would end the aspiration for IT )

Would a sage also aspire to this no-mind,

or, already having this no-mind ,he no longer is able to do so much as pull a weed?

 

Its aspirational .... to be held ... ... perhaps 'practically ideal' is better than aspirational ... IMO it is often achievable as a state ... I get a distinct feeling of release, expansion and 'non-locality' when I enter 'no-mind'. Some people get really disconcerted by it .... when I do it I mean . It's like there is no ground under their feet. Then I .... (hmmm, words are hard here ) ... decrease my circumfrence-less sphere , and focus on them a bit ... and smile, then they relax and feel at ease.

 

Or am I to read you GMP correctly that it is the antithesis of having ideas? , and exists only as a reduction in the number of ideas one has.

 

You dont have the ideas .... the ideas are ... 'in the field' - 'having' the ideas connotes ownership or construction of ideas.

Ideas should not be generated by mind ... but mind can analyse ideas.

[Nungali]

Chidragon might disagree with me but my answer to that question is, No.

 

Although it is very easy to go into empty-minded meditation from the state of wu wei.

 

Remember, in the state of wu wei we are still conscious of everything around us and we are at time even taking action.

 

In meditation we are basically unconscious.

 

 

Ohhh the Lama I meditated with would whack you for that !

 

he actually admonished people for being like they were unconscious when meditating. he screamed at them ... yelled very loudly in the middle of a session. people just about jumped out of their skin ... they had gone so far into themselves.

 

I was ready for it ... I sensed a tension building 'outside', opened my eyes, looked at Lama, he was taking a very big breath in, then he 'busted me' ; he opened his eyes and looked at me watching him and winked. Then he yelled, after that he told everyone they were not meditating, that was not awareness, now you are meditating and aware ( they were frightened out of their wits actually ... then they started to come down ...

 

Lama; "No . no ! You are loosing it , hold it ... hold it ..... ohhhh , you lost it .' Then he laughed.

 

I guess I better try to find out what Wu wei is ?

[Marblehead]

Yes, in my understanding, and this is just from what I have gathered from talking with others, there is a significant difference between most, if not all, Buddhist based meditation and what I am talking about, which is based on Chuang Tzu's writings.

 

With your Lama, if you went unconscious you deserved the wack. Hehehe.

 

There are a couple good threads in "Taoist Discussions" that speak very well to the concept of "wu wei".

[GrandmasterP]

The Rinzai Zennists go in for whacking.

Story goes that at Mount Baldy Zen Centre ( Leonard Cohen's place) there was a retreat and the whacking guy was patrolling the zazenners who were sitting alongside the regular monks in the zendo.

Whacking guy goes up to one sitting monk.

Monk takes off his bib and bows to whacking guy who then whacks the monk's shoulders, bows and moves on to a retreatant just down the line and stands in front of him.

Retreat dude stands up, punches the whacking guy hard in the mouth and walks out.

 

 

Now that's true Zen comrades.

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[thelerner]

Its disconcerting to outsiders, but they whack you on your meatier parts, creating a sharp pain that says wake up. Its not done maliciously. The massage technique we'd use in Aikido after meditation was called Clopping. Done using loud open handed relatively hits around the shoulder and back area. Mostly relaxing and a little bit painful for the one it was done too, often surprising to those around.

[GrandmasterP]

Those whacking sticks are like slapsticks and make more noise than ever they do damage I reckon.

That said if ever anyone attempted it on me I'd tend towards a similar response to that of the retreatant at Mount Baldy.

Anyone who pays out good money for a retreat and allows some twonk with a stick to whack them is pretty whacky IMO.

That Rinzai sect always was a tad masochistic though.

All those endless koans.

It's like being on a TV quiz show but without the prize money and with whacking.

Edited August 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Catholic nuns in schools used to whack as well , with rulers, and any way they want to defend that act , I still think they are trying to beat dominate punish ,, though they may feel its in someones best interest.

As a grown man , if a "master" whacked me , I can take it as a correction , I can take it as a gesture in my interest...because I can walk away If I choose , then again If I read it in some derogatory fashion or an attempt to 'get a leg over' , I might just snatch his pebbles , having crafts of my own to teach.

[Marblehead]

Its disconcerting to outsiders, but they whack you on your meatier parts, creating a sharp pain that says wake up. Its not done maliciously. The massage technique we'd use in Aikido after meditation was called Clopping. Done using loud open handed relatively hits around the shoulder and back area. Mostly relaxing and a little bit painful for the one it was done too, often surprising to those around.

I would rather have a massage by a pretty woman.

[Nungali]

I'd rather have one from a competent woman ... like Kay McPhearson who, yeaaaars ago, used to be my osteopath (as well as the top football teams masseur ) man was she a strong and penetrating masseur! Roght down to the bones and the ligamnets inside joints ... torturous ecstasy

 

Kay baby ... where are you ? .... COME BAAAACK !