Magic and imagination

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I'm doing module 1 of the Quareia course, and I'd appreciate some explanation from you guys about what seems to be a fundamental aspect of magic - imagination. So far the lessons involve a fair amount of visualising/imagining stuff, which is fun.

 

Today I was doing the lesson 5 boundary exercise (http://www.quareia.com/s/QUAREIA_M1_L5.pdf) projecting greetings to a tree and having my own thoughts 'respond' stuff like "hello! Nice you're making contact now." I mean... was that just my own mind making up the other side of a conversation, or some form of contact with an entity living in a tree, or what?

 

I walked back indoors saying to myself 'I just spoke to a bloody tree.' I think either: 1) 'this is real already and I should trust it more' or 2) 'it's imagination at first, but gradually, using the imagination like this opens up genuine perception' or 3) 'you're going nuts, mate, just because something pops into your mind doesn't mean it's real'. Right now I'm not sure between 2 and 3.

 

It would feel different if I experienced something that I could objectively verify, like the tree 'saying' "help, I'm on fire!" and then seeing that it was.

 

I suspect those of you experienced in magic are going to say I have mistaken ideas about what imagination really is in the first place, or something like that. So what role does imagination have in magic?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hmmm Ask the tree what its leaves and bark are good for in magic. Then take some home and try it out to see if you perceived correctly. It just takes practice over time to figure out which is you and which is not you. If the tree is speaking in your usual manner of speaking it could be suspect. Also no thoughts at all during the exercise helps .

[Seeker of Wisdom]

^^^ good idea, thanks.

[Seth Ananda]

Imagination is the sacred door to much magic.

 

It can be a great trap on the other hand. This is seen readily in the world of new agers, and untrained magicians. You get all these people, with very poor left brain skills, an inability to think logically or clearly, who compensate for this by having very very active right brain attributes.

They really dont know how to discriminate between what is normal imagination and just the content of their own psyches, with possible traces of real intuitive processes, and when imagination has actually 'become the door' to real spiritual and magical experience.

 

You get people who talk to space elves one week, pleiadians the next, followed by their atlantean ancestors and visions of their past life as an Egyptian high priestess/sacred prostitute.

Observing them from the outside you will notice that none of their experiences really change them, or rarely results in anything.

They might get a 'contact high' of sorts that can last for a while, especially if they believe they are fulfilling some grand mission that they have been given, but thats about the end of it. As things don't go according to plan, they are quickly returning for another fix

 

Its insane and sad really. They have no Idea of whether they are tuning into an egregore, seeing their own fevered imaginations content and wish fulfillment patterns, or an actual real contact. It seems over time that any real beings who may have been there to begin with, eventually turn their backs on them in frustration, leaving them with just their imaginations...

They often turn sad and bitter as they no longer get the sweet nourishing feeling of real contact that they used to get. They know this inside, but are rarely willing to admit it to themselves.

Sometimes they get downright mean, and some end up willingly embracing the life of the charlatan.

 

 

Josephine McCarthy's stuff is awesome by the way. She should steer you away from those pit falls.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Seth you are reminding me of the very first time I walked into an occult store. The second sentence from the shop keep was that he is a reincarnation of Merlin...

 

Also Seeker of the Tao, as I understand it from looking at that site, you do get a bit of feedback from the teachers.. so I'm sure after you have been working with the exercises for a bit, if you are still not quite sure, you can always ask. Definitely a good thing to have guidance along the path.

 

Of course many of the newagers mentioned by Seth also had teachers, but weekend workshops mostly .

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Seth you are reminding me of the very first time I walked into an occult store. The second sentence from the shop keep was that he is a reincarnation of Merlin...

That's nothing. When I first got into cultivation, having joined a fairly new-agey forum, there was a guy on there who said that, as there are infinite universes, fiction in our world really exists in another universe... and he'd been a pokemon trainer in a previous life. He said he'd be really upset if anyone was critical, because he seriously loved pokemon and it got him through rough times.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Now the internet... that is another universe entirely ROFL.

[Nungali]

Oh, its all in your imagination !

 

The thing is, sometimes the 'imagination' can seem to cause effects in the physical world.

 

Of course, on this topic, I have to do it again .....

 

recommend this

 

http://www.harpur.org/PJCHsecretfire.htm

[Apech]

“The imagination is not a state: it is the human existence itself.”

 

― William Blake

 

The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the eyes of others only a green thing that stands in the way. Some see Nature all ridicule and deformity ... and some scarce see Nature at all. But, to the eyes of the man of imagination, Nature is imagination itself.

 

~ William Blake, in The Letters of William Blake (1906). Letter to the Reverend John Trusler (23 August 1799)

 

To me this world is all one continued vision of fancy or imagination, and I feel flattered when I am told so. What is it sets Homer, Virgil and Milton in so high a rank of art? Why is the Bible more entertaining and instructive than any other book? Is it not because they are addressed to the imagination, which is spiritual sensation, and but mediately to the understanding or reason?

 

~ William Blake, in The Letters of William Blake (1906). Letter to the Reverend John Trusler (23 August 1799)

[Seth Ananda]

“The imagination is not a state: it is the human existence itself.”

 

― William Blake

 

The tree which moves some to tears of joy is in the eyes of others only a green thing that stands in the way. Some see Nature all ridicule and deformity ... and some scarce see Nature at all. But, to the eyes of the man of imagination, Nature is imagination itself.

 

~ William Blake, in The Letters of William Blake (1906). Letter to the Reverend John Trusler (23 August 1799)

 

To me this world is all one continued vision of fancy or imagination, and I feel flattered when I am told so. What is it sets Homer, Virgil and Milton in so high a rank of art? Why is the Bible more entertaining and instructive than any other book? Is it not because they are addressed to the imagination, which is spiritual sensation, and but mediately to the understanding or reason?

 

~ William Blake, in The Letters of William Blake (1906). Letter to the Reverend John Trusler (23 August 1799)

 

Nice. I was thinking that the subject of what Imagination actually is, {at least from an esoteric view} had yet to be addressed.

 

In many old schools of thinking, all of existence is Imagined into being by the Mind of God, the Divine Mind or however you like to conceptualise it. That is how 'God' creates. It is the creative power. God Imagines the world/existence within hirself, and thus the world exists, within and made out of the substance of the Mind of God.

Within the world, God Imagines beings {humans} who have all Hir qualities (in a limited capacity) also within them. We are a mircocosm of that Infinite being. In our limited state we dont just Imagine things into being Like God {normally}. We Imagine them and then our hands have to bring them forth. {which may cover the Will aspect in its limited state}

But, Our Imagination is the divine door that in its true state, separated from fantasy, is connected to the Macrocosmic Divine mind.

 

It can create, change events, and all the other beings and phenomena in existence are also Imaginal. So it is our door for sensing and exploring the deeper layer of things, and for making contact with beings that are not readily seen/experienced with the other senses.

It is actually another sensing organ in its own right.

 

But it takes training to use it properly.

[nine tailed fox]

That's nothing. When I first got into cultivation, having joined a fairly new-agey forum, there was a guy on there who said that, as there are infinite universes, fiction in our world really exists in another universe... and he'd been a pokemon trainer in a previous life. He said he'd be really upset if anyone was critical, because he seriously loved pokemon and it got him through rough times.

 

hmmm forget about pkemon

 

but i was reading about the author of narnia chronicals

 

he said that he saw the lion in his vision and that lion somehow helped him unfold the whole saga, every bit of the story

 

so it is actually quite possible that many of the super hit fictional work is written by some other worldly beings through telepathy or something

 

i dont know but lets be honest it is possible

 

i remember i have read somewhere that buddha also said that there are some millions of worlds into the three lokas

 

and tjere exist different type of beings who even needs different cutlivation methods

 

i dont know for sure

 

just my 2 cents

 

just think about it

 

tao has infinite possibilities to manifest itself, even beyond our imagination

 

we cant put boundries on it

[solxyz]

I walked back indoors saying to myself 'I just spoke to a bloody tree.' I think either: 1) 'this is real already and I should trust it more' or 2) 'it's imagination at first, but gradually, using the imagination like this opens up genuine perception' or 3) 'you're going nuts, mate, just because something pops into your mind doesn't mean it's real'. Right now I'm not sure between 2 and 3.

 

The correct answer is all three. The problem, as one of my teachers would repeat again & again, is that the intuition is a dark and shadowy place. Your imagination can be full of personal projections and whatever other crap you put there just because you felt that you needed to get an answer. On the other hand, it absolutely can be a real mode of perception. Usually it is some blend between the two. As you practice more, not only does that mode of perception open up, but you get better and better and discerning when youre getting a clear signal, and when it is just your own thoughts filling the gap. At some point you will start to have some very clear and powerful contacts with a clear sense that "those dont feel like my thoughts at all" - they will have a different tone to them - its hard to describe, but if you keep going, im quite sure youll have a chance to experience it. Once this happens over and over, you will start to be able to pick out subtle signs that indicate whether you are getting a real signal or not.

 

In the meantime, you should practice trusting your imaginations, since they are the doorway into this practice. In time you will also be able to get external confirmation of some of these experiences, ie getting a very specific peice of information through spirit contact which you can then go confirm if it is true or not, but I dont think you should start putting these practices to the test to early, since it could undermine the basic trust that you need to proceed.

[Nungali]

... The problem, as one of my teachers would repeat again & again, is that the intuition is a dark and shadowy place. Your imagination can be full of personal projections and whatever other crap you put there just because you felt that you needed to get an answer. On the other hand, it absolutely can be a real mode of perception. Usually it is some blend between the two.

 

 

Smart teacher !

 

I see some 'intuitions' and 'imaginings' as circulating forces from a feedback loop with personna/environment informing transperson psychological processes that form the Superego, which feed back down to modify the Ego Id in the personal realm.

 

The problem is short-circuits; ie. it might be a direct surfacing of an Ego or Id drive ascending into consciousness mistaken as a Superego modification descending down into Ego.

 

Thats why psychologists, psychiatrists and magicians have ways of testing them.

 

Simplistic modern views on this seem to deny the need for any testing and just accept any 'communication' at face value.

 

Tut tut !

Edited August 4, 2014 by Nungali