Anyone into strength training?

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There's a little something you guys are missing, but it's understandable, being so rare after all; but here are the hints: not needing muscular strength, takes twenty years to 'get it', and the pushee doesn't really feel like they got pushed, it's more like they "got seduced into flying through the air", and that is a quote.

 

This points to what i call Jedi methods, to be specific, pushing people without touching.  To do this, with or without touching, requires a certain type of body and mind conditioning, and it can appear spontaneously without the 'pusher' being aware of it.  In other words, they are using the Jedi method combined with the physical push.  The reason that they come up with all those silly explanations is because they don't really know they are doing it that way and/or they don't want the 'unbelievers' to know about it.

 

Fajin is similar but different = ) 

 

Felt it once. One minute in tui shou, next minute I had no idea how I was against the wall in a room the size of a tennis court. Was barely touched too. 

[Taomeow]

There's always a "next level" in taiji.    Much of what  @freeform says is what I would also say even a few months ago, but then my teacher got his advanced students to take up pole shaking.  

 

Started out as a form (beautiful and looking mighty intimidating :D ) based on what we already practice empty-handed -- an adaptation of Cannon Fist (the second, fast routine of Chen) plus some stuff from taiji weapons (spear, guandao, jian), and after a while got simplified a bit toward working on the individual moves more, the moves aimed at developing internal power to the max.  What's "internal power?"  No one answer answers this question both directly and correctly (take your pick -- you can give a direct wrong answer or a right answer that is quite like "beating about the bush" .)  When you redirect it from the core, everything gets involved -- but "how" is crucial.  Part of what internal power is has to do with a pattern of usage.  E.g., your arms, which do not participate in generating that power but have to guide and transmit it precisely once it is generated, have to be reasonably strong enough, especially the tendons and the joints.  Bulging muscles won't help one bit, and if whatever muscles you have are tempted to "add" to the strength of the move (typically covering up for either a lack of internal power or a lack of expertise in directing and using it), that's, at best, a prescription for tendonitis and pulled muscles.  The pole is too damn long and heavy and the ricochet of the high amplitude and high frequency vibration will tear them to shreds in no time if you use your arm strength.  But they have to be, like I said, reasonably strong or you will have trouble using them to do what they are supposed to do -- direct, guide and transmit, rapidly change angles and rotate, twist, coil in response to all the inner rotations, twists and coils.  And of course the legs have to be strong enough -- well, that's proprietary taiji territory, goes without saying.  But what is "internal power"?

 

As usual, a good way taoists found to pinpoint what something is is by starting from what it is not.  It is not external muscles, that has been established.  But what about internal muscles?  The psoas, the most powerful of them all?  Aha...  you need them for internal power generation, so it's not as simple as "internal power is not muscles," it's more like "part of internal power is internal muscles."  What about the pelvic floor muscles, what about your muscular inner organs?  Stomach, and in women, the muscle par excellence, the uterus?  If someone thinks that "dantien" is something "spiritual and immaterial only," try rotating it in a way that will cause that 7 1/2 foot wooden thing in your hands to come alive and coil and shake like a rubber hose doesn't...  like a cobra you've grabbed by the tail.  If you think it's "fascia only," you might do it for a minute and then you'll be out of breath and out of steam.  If you think it's "internal muscles only," you might think you feel them working but you won't be able to show it, the pole won't shake unless your external structure is cognizant of how to direct the inner strength outward.  And so on.  To scratch the surface of it...   

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

There's always a "next level" in taiji.    Much of what  @freeform says is what I would also say even a few months ago, but then my teacher got his advanced students to take up pole shaking.  

 

Started out as a form (beautiful and looking mighty intimidating ) based on what we already practice empty-handed -- an adaptation of Cannon Fist (the second, fast routine of Chen) plus some stuff from taiji weapons (spear, guandao, jian), and after a while got simplified a bit toward working on the individual moves more, the moves aimed at developing internal power to the max.  What's "internal power?"  No one answer answers this question both directly and correctly (take your pick -- you can give a direct wrong answer or a right answer that is quite like "beating about the bush" .)  When you redirect it from the core, everything gets involved -- but "how" is crucial.  Part of what internal power is has to do with a pattern of usage.  E.g., your arms, which do not participate in generating that power but have to guide and transmit it precisely once it is generated, have to be reasonably strong enough, especially the tendons and the joints.  Bulging muscles won't help one bit, and if whatever muscles you have are tempted to "add" to the strength of the move (typically covering up for either a lack of internal power or a lack of expertise in directing and using it), that's, at best, a prescription for tendonitis and pulled muscles.  The pole is too damn long and heavy and the ricochet of the high amplitude and high frequency vibration will tear them to shreds in no time if you use your arm strength.  But they have to be, like I said, reasonably strong or you will have trouble using them to do what they are supposed to do -- direct, guide and transmit, rapidly change angles and rotate, twist, coil in response to all the inner rotations, twists and coils.  And of course the legs have to be strong enough -- well, that's proprietary taiji territory, goes without saying.  But what is "internal power"?

 

As usual, a good way taoists found to pinpoint what something is is by starting from what it is not.  It is not external muscles, that has been established.  But what about internal muscles?  The psoas, the most powerful of them all?  Aha...  you need them for internal power generation, so it's not as simple as "internal power is not muscles," it's more like "part of internal power is internal muscles."  What about the pelvic floor muscles, what about your muscular inner organs?  Stomach, and in women, the muscle par excellence, the uterus?  If someone thinks that "dantien" is something "spiritual and immaterial only," try rotating it in a way that will cause that 7 1/2 foot wooden thing in your hands to come alive and coil and shake like a rubber hose doesn't...  like a cobra you've grabbed by the tail.  If you think it's "fascia only," you might do it for a minute and then you'll be out of breath and out of steam.  If you think it's "internal muscles only," you might think you feel them working but you won't be able to show it, the pole won't shake unless your external structure is cognizant of how to direct the inner strength outward.  And so on.  To scratch the surface of it...   

 

Hey you do “stick gong” too as we call it in Xin Yi. Really great for power.

[Taomeow]

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Hey you do “stick gong” too as we call it in Xin Yi. Really great for power.

 

I learned a couple of "stick" routines in the past, but haven't been practicing them so I don't remember much.  There's only so many hours in the day, days in a year...    I do some qigong with my students, but for myself, typically I have my hands full with so much taiji to-do that there's no room for qigong except sporadically.  Mercifully, in my teacher's opinion, taiji neigong is enough at this point.  Whew.  

[Earl Grey]

23 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I learned a couple of "stick" routines in the past, but haven't been practicing them so I don't remember much.  There's only so many hours in the day, days in a year...    I do some qigong with my students, but for myself, typically I have my hands full with so much taiji to-do that there's no room for qigong except sporadically.  Mercifully, in my teacher's opinion, taiji neigong is enough at this point.  Whew.  

 

From Xin Yi, there are eight exercises that make strength drastically increase. Combined with Zhan Zhuang, contracting and linking, and the tuishou, and one has some power that is very hard to see visibly, but is felt by others eventually like standing shoulder deep in water at the beach and feeling tired after a half hour of waves crashing into your body. 

 

I only know four of those long stick exercises so far and they are not to be taken lightly as they make tuishou feel like you're playing with an infant even against muscular people. 

[Taomeow]

58 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

From Xin Yi, there are eight exercises that make strength drastically increase. Combined with Zhan Zhuang, contracting and linking, and the tuishou, and one has some power that is very hard to see visibly, but is felt by others eventually like standing shoulder deep in water at the beach and feeling tired after a half hour of waves crashing into your body. 

 

I only know four of those long stick exercises so far and they are not to be taken lightly as they make tuishou feel like you're playing with an infant even against muscular people. 

 

I've heard a bunch of good things about xinyi, but never practiced it.  Never touched hands with a xinyi person either, strangely enough -- maybe I will encounter one someday.   

 

Ah yes, "muscular people" are no challenge with enough tuishou, if you don't count the challenge of convincing them to observe the rules of engagement.    Some respond to the frustration of "what the hell is going on here" by abandoning them and trying to do "whatever," and then it's about deciding whether you can avoid hurting them to prevent them hurting you, and then your control (a huge part of internal power) is put to the test.  And total control is the top level skill, so why do they (sometimes) count on the other party having mastered it, without knowing one way or the other?    It's a really stupid idea to try to do "whatever" against an experienced internal arts practitioner of unknown level, because, well, we have reflexes too and only some of us are at the total control level...  so don't go grabbing my ankle and exposing your freakin' back of head, neck, spine...  you leave me with a split second choice of putting a knee in your face or landing an elbow on your Jade Pillow -- and if you think I am experienced enough to stop myself in time from doing either, how the hell do you know that, I don't know it myself!..  Rules of engagement are there for a reason.       

 

I'm very glad that I've added the core strength building routine that is no joke, because I've often felt like an impostor when people assessed my status, after a tuishou practice, as "very strong" -- I know I'm not, get by on whatever skill and technique I have, but don't feel particularly "powerful" at all.  It seemed, subjectively, like a different kind of fake from being gym style externally muscular for the appearance of a strong physique: being internally competent but without huge resources to back that up in a pickle.  To me, inner power is something rather all-encompassing...  a kind of sturdiness that can withstand whatever is thrown at it.  Comprised of a patient heart, a courageous and resilient spirit, a nails-digesting stomach, and core muscles developed to back it up physically under any kind of stress, physical or nonphysical.  There's never "enough" of any of that if one is honest with oneself, always somewhere to go.  Thanks and bows to all the taoist gods and teachers for charting the way.    

Edited September 3, 2019 by Taomeow

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I've heard a bunch of good things about xinyi, but never practiced it.  Never touched hands with a xinyi person either, strangely enough -- maybe I will encounter one someday.   

 

Ah yes, "muscular people" are no challenge with enough tuishou, if you don't count the challenge of convincing them to observe the rules of engagement.    Some respond to the frustration of "what the hell is going on here" by abandoning them and trying to do "whatever," and then it's about deciding whether you can avoid hurting them to prevent them hurting you, and then your control (a huge part of internal power) is put to the test.  And total control is the top level skill, so why do they (sometimes) count on the other party having mastered it, without knowing one way or the other?    It's a really stupid idea to try to do "whatever" against an experienced internal arts practitioner of unknown level, because, well, we have reflexes too and only some of us are at the total control level...  so don't go grabbing my ankle and exposing your freakin' back of head, neck, spine...  you leave me with a split second choice of putting a knee in your face or landing an elbow on your Jade Pillow -- and if you think I am experienced enough to stop myself in time from doing either, how the hell do you know that, I don't know it myself!..  Rules of engagement are there for a reason.       

 

I'm very glad that I've added the core strength building routine that is no joke, because I've often felt like an impostor when people assessed my status, after a tuishou practice, as "very strong" -- I know I'm not, get by on whatever skill and technique I have, but don't feel particularly "powerful" at all.  It seemed, subjectively, like a different kind of fake from being gym style externally muscular for the appearance of a strong physique: being internally competent but without huge resources to back that up in a pickle.  To me, inner power is something rather all-encompassing...  a kind of sturdiness that can withstand whatever is thrown at it.  Comprised of a patient heart, a courageous and resilient spirit, a nails-digesting stomach, and core muscles developed to back it up physically under any kind of stress, physical or nonphysical.  There's never "enough" of any of that if one is honest with oneself, always somewhere to go.  Thanks and bows to all the taoist gods and teachers for charting the way.    

 

You've seen the video of the long fajin of our late teacher already, so there's an idea. I'm not technically Xin Yi until I graduate and I only finished rewiring the body after years of training this year finally, the key is to finish the rewiring to program it to efficiently fajin. We can touch hands then as it will be better for me as representative of the school, though I still have a ways to go after Xin Yi to go up in Tai Chi skill, the next level as my teachers agree. 

 

That total control part is quite accurate, by the way: in the beginning were a Spider-Man-like spider sense, later on, the reactions, then a point where the body moves faster than the mind even realizes what it's doing, and finally, where my Xin Yi master is at, he already has an instinct that allows him to see like a chessmaster every attack that comes his way and give six different possible efficient counters and follow-ups in a split second. 

 

Last I checked, someone attempted to assault me and I side-stepped and blocked his swinging of his bag at me without realizing it while remaining totally calm and telling him to chill out, as there appeared to be a misunderstanding and he was a grouch (he tripped over me while texting on his phone in a crowded landbridge and started shouting while accusing me of hitting him on purpose).

 

My goal and current program is building a foundation based on stretching, Zhan Zhuang, bodyweight exercises for calisthenics and isometrics, and muscle control (a very rare practice these days) before any of my students do any serious internal training. It allows them to not only have the body and reflexes of a warrior, but feel ready like a soldier and an action hero. 

 

A cousin of mine is a pure external fighter in Filipino Martial Arts, buff as hell, and she has zero tolerance for bullshit to go with her explosive temper. She still can barely believe I can keep up with her when she's had years in FMA and I've had just my own internal training, but will eventually do FMA to get stick and knife proficiency. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Stick!

 

Stick work is the bomb, both mastering the forms with sung power, transmitting power to and through the stick and so on and so forth!

 

I am passionate about sticks, spears and polearms in general but the classic staff is the Sage of weaponry. Preferrably a 2 meter-ish Double Headed Dragon (equal diameter [20-30 mm] along the whole lenght) made out of rattan (no varnish!!) and correctly maintained with (linseed imho) oil on the inside. They are alive and glad to be so in caring hands that have control and power.

Making one of those resonate either in a curve or a circle is serious training, my oh my!

Spears, the supreme General of weapons, do up the ante somewhat in power-cultivation but every spear technique you can do with a stick and not all stick techniques are applicable for spears so the Sage is more adaptable than the General.

 

A good rattan stick is perfect for sparring too, used correctly they clack and bounce and make the room smell of cooked sulphur from their curing treatment. Doing these ”wobbling” or shaking exercises force a practicioner to use their internal power and structure correctly, the more exerted they are the less correct the exercise is done. Bouncing and tapping drills show the way. Doing the forms force a student to use correct footwork and alignment, but the real challenge comes in doing paired sparring routines, where zero sloppyness in body- or footwork is allowed. Without shaking and wobbling training it’s impossible to actually use the stick correctly at all.

 

I’m so happy others to this too! It means stick-skill is alive! I’m seriously celebrating over here with some more coffee!