Eating meat and the whole jazz around it. Was Sacrificing an act of love?

[Satya]

 

4bsolute, on 31 Jul 2014 - 07:30, said:

Honestly? How many individuals including myself stopped eating meat because of external information?

Many of them, no?

 

I never had to see an abattoir to stop, but, I was raised on a meat eating diet and so, this was 'normal' to me, and it was only after meeting others external to me, and hearing that they did not eat meat, and hearing some of the reasons why that made me question why I'd never questioned this before, and break this conditioning.

 

[GrandmasterP]

We're veggies by habit rather than by conviction.

I was raised veggie and never took a taste for meat eating and Mrs GMP has been veggie since teenage years.

It's what suits us and it's certainly a much cheaper diet given what they charge for meat products in the shops.

We'll eat fish or chicken at a pinch if dining out but we don't buy those and 'red' meat is a total non starter chez nous.

I've always thought that more people would be veggie if they had to kill their own animals for meat but they don't have to do that so I could be wrong.

Ethics I leave alone and choice is choice, good luck to anyone in whatever diet they enjoy.

It does seem a bit surreal though to pass good food through an animal in order to produce meat to eat when you could just eat the good food yourself and cut out the 'middle man' ( or ' middle cow') as it were.

The biggest factory farming operations round here produce milk.

Edited July 31, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

Ethics I leave alone and choice is choice, good luck to anyone in whatever diet they enjoy.

 

What I mean mainly here/above, is, choice IS choice, yes, and choice is important. But, the sentient creatures who people are eating (especially if it's cheap, tortured [that's not actually hyperbole, at all] factory farmed meat) do not have any choice in the matter. If we could talk to animals and sort out a kind of Logan's Run agreement, (old film where people live in 'paradise', but when they reach a certain age are sacrificed), and ask them: "Hey, do you mind if we raise you, but, when you hit 50 we kill and eat you?" then that'd be one thing, but, we can't, so, there's no choice. And that'd be just for kindly raised, non tortured meat. For the tortured stuff, that should be globally illegal, in my opinion. I actually found out recently that the UK adheres to something called the Five Freedoms, so, any livestock raised here is by law treated (compared to factory farming) well. So, for the UK, that's nice to know.

It does seem a bit surreal though to pass good food through an animal in order to produce meat to eat when you could just eat the good food yourself and cut out the 'middle man' ( or ' middle cow') as it were.

Yes, exactly, this is very strange, wasteful, uneconomical and un-ecological. And, as shown in my first essay, can't actually last if our population continues to multiply as it is.

 

I've always thought that more people would be veggie if they had to kill their own animals for meat but they don't have to do that so I could be wrong.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. From a slightly different angle, I think if people HAD to keep their own animals in cages where they couldn't move and they were in obvious pain, fear and suffering throughout their whole lives, then only severely mentally ill people would NOT be veggie.

 

Obviously, eating meat from healthy, kindly treated sources is 1000 times better than not. The animals are treated well, have relatively full lives and then are killed quickly. Tight, tight factory farming, from cheap horrible, antibiotic and chemical filled meat is the biggest problem for most all of the things on my list.

[i am]

but if that's simply The Way It Is -- why would you deem it 'sad'?

 

Exactly. It always makes me sad when someone looks at the natural world and is upset by how things are.

 

Why take the negative connotations popularly associated with the term "parasite" and turn all of life on earth into that negativity? What we are is: what we are. All life relies on other life to live. Yes, absolutely.

 

To understand that, and turn it into a somehow sick, negative thing is an unfortunate way to live life.

[C T]

'a number of hermits in Malaysia' isn't what I was asking about.

 

Is Wang Liping vegetarian? I know Jang Jwing-Ming isn't. And I had dinner twice recently with Lam Kan Chuen -- first time was at a gourmet steak house, and the next time was Greek, where he order a mixed grill platter with fries.

Im sorry, but your question was rather general.

[rene]

From one of the posts above, and also expressed by several in this thread:

 

I don't mind what people do in terms of their personal choices/freedom, just as long as it doesn't violate/harm others...

 

Every action, and non-action, every choice within each moment and motion of change, is one of equal creation and destruction. It's not possible to cause no benefit. It's not possible to cause no harm. Such is the way.

 

warm regards

 

(Please excuse the slightly off-topic point, even though it very much applies here, as well.)

 

[Daeluin]

Every action, and non-action, every choice within each moment and motion of change, is one of equal creation and destruction. It's not possible to cause no benefit. It's not possible to cause no harm. Such is the way.

 

And this is more or less the Taoist view on karma. And Immortality is the path towards not causing harm, but living in a way to cultivate absolute harmony.

 

Anything we do creates ripples off into the universe. Some last longer than others. But whether good or bad, whether mere thoughts or destructive violence, what we project out there tends to ripple back to us as a reflection.

 

We cultivate harmony by dissolving polarity. Often creating harmony is considered valuable by others so we find ways to do it invisibly, taking no credit. By simply flowing with life, the situation we find ourselves facing are reflections of past karma, and opportunities to harmonize their polarity.

 

As far as food goes.... I see all food as life, and all life as sacred. Personally I agree with much that Spotless wrote. The cleaner my diet, the cleaner my energy, and at that point I tend to not feel very good when I eat heavier foods. When I was 15 I made the deliberate choice to become vegetarian, and I made it on my own without any outside pressure. It felt like the right way for me. A couple years ago I did explore eating meat, as some things I'd never even tried. My first bite of steak (cooked by a chef friend of mine) was fantastic. But heavy. Eating meat didn't really do it for me. The vegetarian diet does require some extra effort with grounding/rooting, for me, but I don't mind.

 

I've done some simple 7 day fasts. Diluted juices and teas. The first 3 days were always rough... but after that I didn't feel like stopping. I got plenty of sugars from the juices, and my body felt incredible. That was all before I started energy cultivation. I suspect, given my long term generally "light foods" diet, subsisting on little do no food wouldn't be very difficult, assuming I maintained my cultivation work. They say when the jing is full, there is no desire, when the qi is full there is no need for food and when the shen is full there's no need for sleep.

 

But yeah... just in general our "modern" society wages wars of perversion upon the environment. All sorts of traumatized energy is tied into that, and much of it is hidden from our brainwashed lifestyles. We're brainwashed by eating what we're told is good in advertising (talk about cultivating truth and sincerity, sheesh), and we're brainwashed by the chaos pulling us in every direction but our own hearts. We can't even see spirits.

 

It is what it is. There's a theory out there that our species is currently at the end of the 3rd chakra phase of evolution. Seems to resonate with truth.... so let's learn our lessons about power struggles with each other and with nature, and use those lessons to heal and move on to the next.

[silent thunder]

I recall something like 70% of the animals on this planet eat only plant material

 

I never understood how good they feel until trying a raw plant based diet myself for a week,

 

The bees must really be buzzing with a diet of pollen/ nectar

I think bees are the highest of the high... on their diet.

 

I've watched them for many many hours and they appear, blissed out to the point of drunken stupor.... often.

 

good on em.. flower and food bringers that they are, harvesters of liquid sunlight...

 

love them bees.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Not you buddy... this just me thinking out loud.

All respect to any and all dietary choices.

Whatever we grew up eating if we were lucky enough to get enough to eat... That's 'home' food.

Most people stick to that and maybe enjoy a few forays into different dishes.

It's all good.

Food faddists get to a place where dinner becomes a statement that somehow defines them...

" I am a veggie."

" I am a vegan."

" I am a meat eater."

.....

"YOU ( meaning the rest of us who eat differently to them) are all wrong. My diet is the only right diet!"

Well 'duh'... OK, be whatever you choose and chow hearty on whatever foods float your boat but don't preach it to others who have differing tastes and have made different dietary choices.

We can all of us respect difference and whatever goes into someone's mouth as food does not define them.

It's what comes out of folks' mouths as words that defines and delineates what's in their hearts.

 

Eating animal flesh is the default error in humanity at present (unconscious, tamasic)

 

Vegetarian/ Vegan could be considered a philosophical movement as Taoism/ Buddhism are...

 

Being vegetarian/ vegan tends to be much more than just what you eat.

Edited August 1, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Similar experience with Alcohol Spotless

Edited August 1, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

I have been a vegetarian for most of my life, with the exception of the time when my daughter was small. I was 12 when I became one, influenced by my hippie brother.

 

My motivation is very mixed, health plays a part, compassion, and the realization that for so many people on this planet to have something to eat, we'll have to reduce meat intake.

 

I sometimes eat meat, when I feel I have to, and I did so yesterday. But my guts can't handle it anymore, I have cramps and a lot of gas.

 

Since a while I'm pondering upon going fruitarian, I don't like a lot of tastes anymore, but I like sweet things and fruit. Are there some fruitarians here, or people with experiences in that direction?

 

I am maybe 50%? fruitarian ahah

 

For breakfast + lunch generally I have lots of fruit. At the moment I am eating organic cara cara oranges (very sweet) and bananas daily (very enjoyable) . Some combination of 10 or a little more. Last breakfast I had 2 oranges and 10ish bananas. Some will be 5 oranges and 5 bananas, all depends.

 

Dinner/ Afternoon at present I'll have a cooked meal. I prefer quinoa, buckwheat, lentils sometimes with an avocado. Meals are usually pretty basic, but I find them enjoyable and efficient.

 

Some will have a large salad/greens at dinner, you could have fruit again also. I know of a guy who did 6 months on oranges alone, says he was buzzing like the bees

 

I have done a week of mangoes and oranges in the summer and have never felt better in all aspects.

 

Can take awhile to find what works best for you / experiments etc

 

I want to experiment more with a salad at night to see how that goes.

 

Sleeping is great too, very relaxed and hydrated. Waking up with a fresh breath + body is happiness.

 

 

 

 

[soaring crane]

 

I am maybe 50%? fruitarian ahah

 

 

 

I assume you're aware of this guy:

 

http://www.thefruitarian.com/

 

[silent thunder]

About 12 years ago, during Summer, while working insane hours (84 days straight) on a film during a heat wave, I started just eating fruit. It was ridiculously hot 115-125 every day in the shop and on the black top and my body just felt awful if I ate anything heavy.

 

There was no plan, it wasn't a detox, it was just purely listening to what made me feel good and what I wanted and it was so awesome. I felt light, had loads of energy and wasn't thinking anything about health, just feeling good.

 

That has become my body's natural response now whenever there is a heat wave.

I just switch to fruit and love it, but it never lasts more than a few weeks.

[Junior Western Bacon Chi]

Though I think it's a shame that some animals that are bred for slaughter aren't given better lives before their time comes, my opinion is that if people refuse to eat that animal out of protest, then that animal died for nothing. Yes I like the taste of meat and it's the main reason I wouldn't be willing to never eat it again, but I also think it's important to respect and give thanks to those animals that died and sometimes suffered to put food on my plate.

 

No disrespect to anyone. Just my opinion.

[silent thunder]

honesty always works mate

isn't always easy

doesn't always win you friends

but it'll win you the right ones.

 

cheers.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I assume you're aware of this guy:

 

http://www.thefruitarian.com/

 

 

Ya

[Satya]

From one of the posts above, and also expressed by several in this thread:

 

 

Every action, and non-action, every choice within each moment and motion of change, is one of equal creation and destruction. It's not possible to cause no benefit. It's not possible to cause no harm. Such is the way.

 

warm regards

 

(Please excuse the slightly off-topic point, even though it very much applies here, as well.)

Yes, but, you can cause more or less harm.

 

Example, someone who's had a horrible day, they've been fired from their job, is a bit angry, and has had a drink, they're walking home and the anger is raging through them. They see some young people being noisy in the street, and it annoys them further, seeing their joy, and how they play carefree.

 

Scenario 1: He goes further in that direction of hate, judgement, feeding it, building it, and then goes and kicks the shit out of them. = A lot more harm in the world.

 

Scenario 2: He reasons with himself that they're just kids playing, and that he shouldn't take his anger out on them, even if they are annoying him. = A lot less harm in the world.

 

If you're on the receiving end of the oppression from any of the more rather than less harm scenarios, then, I don't think you'd be quite so indifferent to the actions of others.

 

Once you reach the critical mass of de-conditioning yourself enough to not be pulled into/identified with thought/ego/labels,etc, that is called enlightenment, or, are on the way at least, then you're beginning to operate in harmony.

 

Until then people are, a lot of the time, slaves to thought/feeling/ego; resulting in pain/suffering on micro and macro levels. This is why the fundamental stage of precepts in most religions and wisdom traditions exist. Ways to live.

 

If we're talking in an absolute sense, with "The Tao/God/Brahman/Totality/One is perfect." then, yes, of course it is. Karma provides lessons, learning opportunities, exactly what we need for growth/enlightenment, constantly. Constant opportunities to learn. But if people just went by default and said: "It's not possible to cause no benefit. It's not possible to cause no harm. Such is the way.", especially without understanding the fundamentals of Truth/Advaita/Self Inquiry necessary to utilise such information for awakening, then, you'd have this as an excuse for mass global inaction on all levels; inaction of an apathetic, ego based, justified kind, not of a spiritual kind.

 

Then you'd have no one bothering to help others, or themselves, and the external mentally ill tyrants of the world (dictators, war mongers, corporate psychopaths) and the internal tyrants of the mind/body (hate, fear, illusion, control, pain, suffering, lies) would run rampant, significantly more rampant than they already do.

 

We learn lessons and evolve on the micro and macro level, on the level of self and society. One of these lessons is that inducing suffering in others, violating the rights of others MORE rather than LESS is unkind, unconscious, ignorant, and, not beneficial to the world as a whole.

 

Everything for a reason, even adversity. Adversity has always led me to my deepest insights and biggest growth spurts, I agree; it has served the purpose of facilitating ongoing lessons, but, then this has led me to help others. I don't see the adversity, the suffering of a defenceless creature leading to an insight that will then start a big pig revolution though, so, this suffering appears to be even more needless.

 

And, all of the other pragmatic issues that genuinely need addressing.

 

A: It's not necessary to eat meat.

B: After energy production, livestock is the second-highest contributor to atmosphere-altering gases.

C: Stop antibiotic resistant superbugs from forming and wiping out millions of animals and humans.

D: There's no room for meat on our planet anymore.

E: Many meats are bad for you.

F: Help the starving masses, feed them the food that we needlessly use to feed livestock.

G: Stop encouraging murderous/psychopathic tendencies.

H: Stop the genuine, severe, horrible, perpetual suffering of animals.

I: The only pro from these extensive pros/CONS is "but I like how it tastes".

Edited August 1, 2014 by Satya

[Satya]

Though I think it's a shame that some animals that are bred for slaughter aren't given better lives before their time comes, my opinion is that if people refuse to eat that animal out of protest, then that animal died for nothing. Yes I like the taste of meat and it's the main reason I wouldn't be willing to never eat it again, but I also think it's important to respect and give thanks to those animals that died and sometimes suffered to put food on my plate.

 

No disrespect to anyone. Just my opinion.

This is a logical fallacy that many meat eaters repeat. Albeit with good intentions.

 

You're forgetting the chain of supply and demand.

 

"my opinion is that if people refuse to eat that animal out of protest, then that animal died for nothing." Actually, if you go a step further, then, you'd see that the animal not being eaten wasn't for nothing, but, like someone fighting in a revolution against a tyrant, it not being eaten is to aid the cause of ending the suffering of its brothers and sisters.

 

The animal's already dead. If it's bought and eaten then the chain of supply and demand is reinforced, continues, and MORE animals needlessly suffer and are killed. If not bought or eaten, then, the chain of supply and demand is broken, stops, and LESS animals needlessly suffer and are killed.

 

That's a good reason not to eat that particular animal, if it stops the suffering of others. This means it didn't die for nothing, it died for a cause.

[eye_of_the_storm]

The "but I like how it tastes" isn't a problem either as there are vegan/vege mimics

[eye_of_the_storm]

The "but I am thankful"...

Imagine yourself in a similar situation to these animals

Somebody breaks into your home, kills your family and takes everything you own... because "they need it to survive" or "they enjoy it" ... they are thankful for what they have taken from you... how would you feel?

For one you'd think that person was insane/ psychopath

Edited August 1, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Satya]

The "but I like how it tastes" isn't a problem either as there are vegan/vege mimics

Indeed, there are replacements.

 

My main point here is that, really, this is the only supposed pro (albeit a selfish, immature and inconsiderate one) that people could spout. That, they like how that PARTICULAR thing tastes. They could then argue that mimics don't taste EXACTLY the same, and continue in this direction of argument.

 

Though, if we boil it down, then, the desire of the individual is simply to eat food that tastes nice and that they enjoy.

 

There's a plethora of vegan and veggie meals that taste amazing and are incredibly enjoyable. So, what's the problem here?

 

Habit. The only issue is that people just need to spend a very short period of time adjusting to a new habit, which, can feel disorienting sometimes, but, is quickly done. But, people don't like feeling disoriented.

 

Just a tiny bit of willpower and patience is required, but, most people, especially because they're consumed by so much personal bullshit (most of all of us are) can't be arsed to dish out this bit of willpower and patience. They've got their bullshit/illusion/suffering, and, rather than embrace it, see through it and thus overcome it, they'd rather distract themselves from it, ignore it and cover it up with sensory pleasure input, for example, food that they habitually eat and enjoy.

 

Another reason why conscious mindful living is good for the world.

 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Satya

[soaring crane]

 

Ya

 

This is from his website:

 

"Maybe Steve Jobs had it right… ‘Think different.’

(Steve Jobs was widely known to practice a fruitarian diet)

Most of us like labels. They give us a way to quantify, structure and define who we are as individuals. But just as Steve Jobs thought differently, so can you!"

 

I don't think I'd use SJ as a billboard for the benefits of my eating habits. I feel he died needlessly thanks to his stubborn refusal of help that didn't fit his worldview.

 

Still, the Frutarian is an incredible billboard all on his own. What really strikes me it the fantastic muscle tone achievable without an overabundance of protein intake. The body only needs quality raw materials to produce its own proteins, something the sports nutrition industries would prefer to keep secret. There are great examples from the rest of the animal kingdom -- gorillas, bears, steer, etc... muscle-packed, powerful mammals that take in very little to virtually no protein at all (bears prefer the fat from the salmon they catch, often leaving the stripped, meaty carcasses to the crows, foxes and other animals that follow them around).

[eye_of_the_storm]

Yeh I don't get the Steve Jobs thing either, not sure what he practiced + possibility of malevolent earthly forces

I have seen many people excel on such, Michael Arnstein being one.

Millions die from SAD related dis ease barely a mention (mainstream)...

Govs are more invested in keeping people in a Rajasic/ Tamasic state

Edited August 1, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Andrei]

I am maybe 50%? fruitarian ahah

For breakfast + lunch generally I have lots of fruit. At the moment I am eating organic cara cara oranges (very sweet) and bananas daily (very enjoyable) . Some combination of 10 or a little more. Last breakfast I had 2 oranges and 10ish bananas. Some will be 5 oranges and 5 bananas, all depends.

Dinner/ Afternoon at present I'll have a cooked meal. I prefer quinoa, buckwheat, lentils sometimes with an avocado. Meals are usually pretty basic, but I find them enjoyable and efficient.

Some will have a large salad/greens at dinner, you could have fruit again also. I know of a guy who did 6 months on oranges alone, says he was buzzing like the bees

I have done a week of mangoes and oranges in the summer and have never felt better in all aspects.

Can take awhile to find what works best for you / experiments etc

I want to experiment more with a salad at night to see how that goes.

Sleeping is great too, very relaxed and hydrated. Waking up with a fresh breath + body is happiness.

 

Where do you live? What kind of job do you have (I mean physical / outdoors like in constructions or office?)

[eye_of_the_storm]

I live in Australia.

I have worked construction jobs with this diet. I recall 1/2 a day breaking up concrete, removal by hand / wheelbarrow. I made about 2 wheelbarrow trips for everyone else's 1, to the point that the supervisor actually told me to stop working and have a break so the others could share the load. I did for a moment but was eager to keep going.

This guy is Vegan/ Fruitarian he won the 2013 Strava Base Mile Challenge with 6190km cycled (in 1 month - about 200km per day)