Eating meat and the whole jazz around it. Was Sacrificing an act of love?

[Satya]

+ Stereotypically, there aint many people that have more muscle mass than boxers: http://www.ecorazzi.com/2014/06/09/boxer-david-haye-goes-vegan-to-make-amends/

Edited August 1, 2014 by Satya

[rene]

Satya, hello

 

Thank you for your post; it outlines well the pitfalls for those still dwelling in 'either/or' mindset.

 

warm regards

[rene]

And this is more or less the Taoist view on karma. And Immortality is the path towards not causing harm, but living in a way to cultivate absolute harmony.

 

Hi Daeluin

 

Thanks for your post! Taoists will have to speak to what Taoists views and paths are - as I am neither Taoist nor am I looking for something that was never lost in the first place. (-:

 

warm regards

[soaring crane]

His blog is a mess and his grammar and punctuation comically poor, but Patrick Sweeney is one of the most accomplished (and lovable) vegan athletes I know of. He's sponsored by Barefoot Ted MacDonald (Luna Sandals) and the Stone Brewing company :-)

 

There are many, many vegans in the Ultramarathing community. The best-known is Scott Jurek, of course.

[GrandmasterP]

Similar experience with Alcohol Spotless

 

Alcohol is 'Satan's Buttermilk'.

Filthy stuff and best avoided.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Another Vegan

[eye_of_the_storm]

+ this guy

Alexey Voevoda aka ''Force of Nature''

 

Alexey Ivanovich Voyevoda (Russian: Алексей Иванович Воевода; born 9 May 1980) is a Russian bobsledder and professional armwrestler. Two-time champion of the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi in the two-man and the four-man bobsleigh events. Alexey Voyevoda is the best junior arm wrestler in Tjabouty's history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Voyevoda

 

[Andrei]

I live in Australia.

 

I have worked construction jobs with this diet. I recall 1/2 a day breaking up concrete, removal by hand / wheelbarrow. I made about 2 wheelbarrow trips for everyone else's 1, to the point that the supervisor actually told me to stop working and have a break so the others could share the load. I did for a moment but was eager to keep going.

 

This guy is Vegan/ Fruitarian he won the 2013 Strava Base Mile Challenge with 6190km cycled (in 1 month - about 200km per day)

 

 

I wish I could see you doing that in Canada (in winter)

[soaring crane]

I wish I could see you doing that in Canada (in winter)

 

why?

[silent thunder]

I rode my bike all Winter in Minnesota.

 

Took off my tires, put alternating holes in them just off center and then put #8 pan head bolts through the holes with lock-nuts on them. Bit of rubber cement over the pan heads on the inside to protect the tube from the bolt heads and off I went.

 

Snow tires on my bike, worked great.

[C T]

I rode my bike all Winter in Minnesota.

 

Took off my tires, put alternating holes in them just off center and then put #8 pan head bolts through the holes with lock-nuts on them. Bit of rubber cement over the pan heads on the inside to protect the tube from the bolt heads and off I went.

 

Snow tires on my bike, worked great.

Haha! Ingenious!!!

[Andrei]

why?

 

Because summer is not winter and Australia is not Canada. And so many differences between people that all those discutions do not make sense.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

As one moves off of meat and reduces animal fat from the diet, taste becomes cleaner and the ability to taste increases (at least in my case). As I moved away from oils as well, the whole experience of food changed. Meats now have a very heavy greasy ness to them that is so pronounced that it overrides any sentimental pining that I might have had - I have no pining what so ever.

 

I am now enjoying the extraordinarily taste filled world of the Vegan - who knew!

I cheat on the oil because it is very difficult to be strict on this point but I do not add oil to anything.

 

...

 

I suggest you learn something about nutrition. All oils are not bad. Oils help you process the fat soluble vitamins. There are good oils and not so good oils...

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree with Spotless. A guide to good nutrition is - can you find it in nature? There are no olive oil trees, there are olive trees though that have oil/fat and a lot of other good things. Nature works in holistic ways not so much in methods of extraction and isolation.

You can get plenty of good fats in holistic ways / plants.

Everything natural contains some % of fats and protein

Banana for example = 93% Carbs, 3% Fats, 4% Protein

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1846/2

This is close to a ratio some practice that is known as 801010 and some 9055

Being 80% Carbs, 10% Fat, 10% protein or 90% Carbs, 5% Fat, 5% protein (you don't really need to think about this though as the foods ideal for human consumption are basically already this)

A lot of this goes against the grain, so you can be confident you are on the right path in this upside-down world

More info @ https://www.facebook.com/notes/sexy-raw-food-and-fitness/the-raw-facts-of-the-80-10-10-diet/424452744295741

Edited August 2, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[soaring crane]

I agree with Spotless. A guide to good nutrition is - can you find it in nature? There are no olive oil trees, there are olive trees though that have oil/fat and a lot of other good things. Nature works in holistic ways not so much in methods of extraction and isolation.

 

 

I agree with this for the most part (still love my olive oil, though), but there's one catch regarding cooking foods and that is always overlooked by raw food lovers. Forest fires are a normal, and necessary, part of the cycles of nature and the charred remains of animals killed in them have always been searched for and eaten by other animals, and by the earliest humans. That's how we came up with the idea of cooking meat in the first place (I've read, and it's a logical conclusion to make). Cooked food is obviously safer than raw, and I supposed it's just always tasted better, too. But that's an assumption on my part.

[eye_of_the_storm]

http://www.eco-friendly-africa-travel.com/longevity-diet.html#

^ Really good read

The Longevity Diet: Secrets to living a healthy and long-lasting life

Edited August 2, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[nickyro]

What happened when I was vegetarian is that my energies were so refined both my sexual centers (no more ecstasy, no more bliss in meditative states) and intestinal system were not nurtured anymore: I don't call that "health".

(Agni and the digestive fire are decreased,especially if you eat raw (very bad for health in ayurveda)

Then I understood cultivation and tantra is about realising the wholeness of our being from the gross to subtil we are the whole, and every part of it has to be nourished without disdain.

Cultivation is about linking ("yoga") every part/realm of our being into unity.

Edited August 2, 2014 by nickyro

[Satya]

What happened when I was vegetarian is that my energies were so refined both my sexual centers (no more ecstasy, no more bliss in meditative states) and intestinal system were not nurtured anymore: I don't call that "health".

(Agni and the digestive fire are decreased,especially if you eat raw (very bad for health in ayurveda)

Then I understood cultivation and tantra is about realising the wholeness of our being from the gross to subtil we are the whole, and every part of it has to be nourished without disdain.

Cultivation is about linking ("yoga") every part/realm of our being into unity.

Well,

 

A: As has been shown, on the pragmatic 'non spiritual' side it's not necessary to eat meat. It's not necessary to eat meat to receive all nutritional needs for 'normal living', for high energy/labour/physical-work living, or for high muscle mass high performance athletic living.

 

B: The huge amounts of Yogic, Tantric, Buddhist, Hindu and Jain lineages in general, and various vegan or vegetarian masters from ALL lineages and systems, show that it's not necessary to eat meat for spiritual benefit. In fact, conversely, many masters espouse the vegetarian or vegan diet, highlighting that it's actually more beneficial than a meat eating diet.

 

So:

"What happened when I was vegetarian is that my energies were so refined both my sexual centers (no more ecstasy, no more bliss in meditative states) and intestinal system were not nurtured anymore: I don't call that "health"."

seems to be an anomaly in this case, and, unless strict records are kept of everything you do in your life, every potential extraneous variable, then, these issues you report could very well be due to one-million different factors that don't have anything to do with a vegetarian diet: environmental, external, internal, psychological, social, biochemical, neurological, energetic, diet issues not related to meat, and so on.

[nickyro]

"Unless strict records are kept of everything you do in your life" That is actually what I am doing, every single day everything I eat and do (cultivation related).

I don't want to convince you.

I want to offer an alternative for random people here, truly motivated cultivators who grow tired of the mainstream raw vegan propaganda. We don't want traditions or morality: we want cultivation success.

Edited August 2, 2014 by nickyro

[Satya]

"Unless strict records are kept of everything you do in your life" That is actually what I am doing, every single day everything I eat and do (cultivation related).

I don't want to convince you.

I want to offer an alternative for random people here, truly motivated cultivators who grow tired of the mainstream raw vegan propaganda. We don't want traditions or morality: we want cultivation success.

Mainstream = "the ideas, attitudes, or activities that are shared by most people and regarded as normal or conventional."

 

Given that the majority of the world are meat eaters, a (comparatively) tiny minority are vegan, and an EVEN tinier minority are raw vegan, then, 'Mainstream', and 'raw vegan' are mutually exclusive terms.

 

I can't comment on raw vegan, but, general vegetarian or vegan diet:

A: As has been shown, on the pragmatic 'non spiritual' side it's not necessary to eat meat. It's not necessary to eat meat to receive all nutritional needs for 'normal living', for high energy/labour/physical-work living, or for high muscle mass high performance athletic living.

 

B: The huge amounts of Yogic, Tantric, Buddhist, Hindu and Jain lineages in general, and various vegan or vegetarian masters from ALL lineages and systems, show that it's not necessary to eat meat for spiritual benefit. In fact, conversely, many masters espouse the vegetarian or vegan diet, highlighting that it's actually more beneficial than a meat eating diet.

 

So, your experience seems to be an anomaly in this case, and, unless strict records are kept of everything you do in your life, every potential extraneous variable, then, these issues you report could very well be due to one-million different factors that don't have anything to do with a vegetarian diet: environmental, external, internal, psychological, social, biochemical, neurological, energetic, diet issues not related to meat, and so on.

Maybe you've felt that cultivation has been affected, but, there's thousands of years backing vegetarian diet going alongside spiritual practices. Many people don't seem to suffer with issues at all here. Chunyi Lin recommends and follows a vegetarian diet, and, he's recognised to be a high level Qigong Master, so, certainly no energetic cultivation problems there. It's pretty much ubiquitous throughout Yogic and Tantric circles, and, there're many powerful Yogic and Tantric masters out there. Those masters who do eat meat generally do not eat store bought, factory farmed meat, but only in instances where they live away from developed cities, etc, and meat is a necessary part of the diet, and that seems to be the only reason, not anything to do with cultivation.

 

Considering this, alongside with all of the pragmatic issues listed in my previous, original comment:

 

A: It's not necessary to eat meat.

B: After energy production, livestock is the second-highest contributor to atmosphere-altering gases.

C: Stop antibiotic resistant superbugs from forming and wiping out millions of animals and humans.

D: There's no room for meat on our planet anymore.

E: Many meats are bad for you.

F: Help the starving masses, feed them the food that we needlessly use to feed livestock.

G: Stop encouraging murderous/psychopathic tendencies.

H: Stop the genuine, severe, horrible, perpetual suffering of animals.

I: The only pro from these extensive pros/CONS is "but I like how it tastes".

 

Then, at least a well treated animal vegetarian diet is a no brainer, and has no indicated risks to health or cultivation. Even better for the world in general, a vegan diet.

 

Again, your experience seems to be an anomaly in this case, and, for pragmatic, moral/ethical, ecological, economical purposes, and alongside no spiritual reason not to, I highly recommend at the least a vegetarian diet, vegan diet preferably, or, at the very very least, a diet with occasional meat from well treated animals, not factory farmed.

[nickyro]

Vegan diet in spiritual communities is mainstream and discussion about it is not even allowed.

The "meat diet" is regarded as an "anomaly", or because you don't know "how to eat vegan", but never it would be considered a genuine conclusion drawn by a methodical cultivation approach.

 

Yogic traditions all says that meat/fish nurture the two-three first chakras, anything related to the physical realm and sexuality.

What do you want to sublimate if you don't have radiant sexual energy to begin with?

Paths which consider only the higher chakras, the refined energy, full silence/water method as the only way to go are missing a half of the equation.

 

Look at all the arguments you are compliling about this subject, from "There is no room for meat on our planet anymore" to "antibiotic resistance" . Those are the signs of an unhealthy approach to this subject, you are defending more a position, a whole lifestyle than a truly sincere approach to the path.

Edited August 2, 2014 by nickyro

[Satya]

Vegan diet in spiritual communities is mainstream and discussion about it is not even allowed.

The "meat diet" is regarded as an "anomaly", or because you don't know "how to eat vegan", but never it would be considered a genuine conclusion drawn by a methodical cultivation approach.

 

Yogic traditions all says that meat/fish nurture the two-three first chakras, anything related to the physical realm and sexuality.

What do you want to sublimate if you don't have radiant sexual energy to begin with?

 

Look at all the arguments you are compliling about this subject, from "There is no room for meat on our planet anymore" to "antibiotic resistance" . Those are the signs of an unhealthy approach to this subject, you are defending more a position, a whole lifestyle than a truly sincere approach to the path.

 

Well,

 

A: As has been shown, on the pragmatic 'non spiritual' side it's not necessary to eat meat. It's not necessary to eat meat to receive all nutritional needs for 'normal living', for high energy/labour/physical-work living, or for high muscle mass high performance athletic living.

 

B: The huge amounts of Yogic, Tantric, Buddhist, Hindu and Jain lineages in general, and various vegan or vegetarian masters from ALL lineages and systems, show that it's not necessary to eat meat for spiritual benefit. In fact, conversely, many masters espouse the vegetarian or vegan diet, highlighting that it's actually more beneficial than a meat eating diet. + Maybe you've felt that cultivation has been affected, but, there's thousands of years backing vegetarian diet going alongside spiritual practices. Many people don't seem to suffer with issues at all here. Chunyi Lin recommends and follows a vegetarian diet, and, he's recognised to be a high level Qigong Master, so, certainly no energetic cultivation problems there. It's pretty much ubiquitous throughout Yogic and Tantric circles, and, there're many powerful Yogic and Tantric masters out there.

 

So , your experience seems to be an anomaly in this case.

Specifically re:

Look at all the arguments you are compliling about this subject, from "There is no room for meat on our planet anymore" to "antibiotic resistance" . Those are the signs of an unhealthy approach to this subject, you are defending more a position, a whole lifestyle than a truly sincere approach to the path.

From my original post:

I'm just going to come at this from a pragmatic, scientific and moral basis (and most decent spiritual practice is pragmatic, scientific and moral anyway).

So, yes, I am highlighting practical issues related to people, animals and planet.

 

And, C: Given A, and B (above, not in the list below), considering all of the issues I have outlined:

A: It's not necessary to eat meat.

B: After energy production, livestock is the second-highest contributor to atmosphere-altering gases.

C: Stop antibiotic resistant superbugs from forming and wiping out millions of animals and humans.

D: There's no room for meat on our planet anymore.

E: Many meats are bad for you.

F: Help the starving masses, feed them the food that we needlessly use to feed livestock.

G: Stop encouraging murderous/psychopathic tendencies.

H: Stop the genuine, severe, horrible, perpetual suffering of animals.

I: The only pro from these extensive pros/CONS is "but I like how it tastes".

then, it seems a no brainer to go meat free. After all, we need a planet/environment to cultivate on/in, and with these very real risks and issues, we not only cause needless suffering of others through the meat industry, but we're running out of resources, space, safe environment and medicines (among other things) on/for the planet and human society to survive.

One little place The Ecology Institute in Willits, California; they’ve said ‘Okay, starting with the presumption that there’ll be 7.5 billion of us in the middle of the 21st century, what’s the minimum amount of land per person we need to devote to agriculture, to support that population without fossil fuels? They worked out 2800 square feet, so it’s do-able.

 

Their calculations, I should say, are based on bio-intensive farming a strictly vegan diet and composting all plant and human waste, including post mortem humans."

 

From: Robert Newman's A History Of Oil (documentary); transcript: http://www.google.co....72185853,d.ZGU

That seems to cover all of the bases. Spiritual cultivation, health, environment, ethics/morals, pragmatic issues all bases covered.

 

In short, the meat industry is bad for people, animals and earth and eating meat isn't required for spiritual or health needs.

 

I think that's all there is to be said.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Satya

[eye_of_the_storm]

"Unless strict records are kept of everything you do in your life" That is actually what I am doing, every single day everything I eat and do (cultivation related).

I don't want to convince you.

I want to offer an alternative for random people here, truly motivated cultivators who grow tired of the mainstream raw vegan propaganda. We don't want traditions or morality: we want cultivation success.

 

One of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum, congrats.

[nickyro]

 

One of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum, congrats.

 

You elevated veganism into a Dogma.

What happens when people try to have an alternative discourse on a dogma is what you are doing right now: try to ridiculize, or use petty rhetoric because your feelings hurt, you act like your whole lifestyle is at stake.

Edited August 2, 2014 by nickyro

[Tibetan_Ice]

Don't forget, during his kundalini sickness Gopi Krishna saved himself by eating meat.