Eating meat and the whole jazz around it. Was Sacrificing an act of love?

[silent thunder]

There is no one path for everyone.

Some folks will eat meat and love it and thrive, obviously, just observe them.

Others will eat only the veggie life that has no apparent sentience and can't run away and love it and thrive.

Some will eat both and not thrive, some will eat one or the other and not thrive...

 

I don't get the desire, or borderline psychotic drive in some people, to take other people who are different from them and try and force them to be like you. Take that energy and put it into your own practice.

 

We are all different and there is no one way for everyone.

We all come from source... if you believe eating meat will slow down your process, then don't eat it.

But this preachy, demanding, abusive desire to make everyone like you is odd to me... odd that it's so pervasive.

[Satya]

There is no one path for everyone.

Some folks will eat meat and love it and thrive, obviously, just observe them.

Others will eat only the veggie life that has no apparent sentience and can't run away and love it and thrive.

Some will eat both and not thrive, some will eat one or the other and not thrive...

 

Of course.

I don't get the desire, or borderline psychotic drive in some people, to take other people who are different from them and try and force them to be like you. Take that energy and put it into your own practice.

 

Psychotic isn't really correct. Psychotic would be if you were telling people not to eat meat because there's a secret society of cows and pigs who are plotting on killing all humans, which there isn't...........

 

If you meant psychopathic then that wouldn't be correct either; it would actually be the opposite of psychopathic. Psychopathic tendencies being that primarily of diminished empathy and remorse, and even revelling in the suffering/controlling of others; one who discourages actions that lead to the suffering of others would be the polar opposite of psychopathic.

and try and force them to be like you.

From my perspective, and I think most everyone else would agree, it's got nothing to do with trying to force people to be like you. As I have expressed here, "I don't mind what people do in terms of their personal choices/freedom, just as long as it doesn't violate/harm others." I have no desire to force anyone to do anything. I am pro freedom, but I am not pro violation/needless-suffering/exploitation. In fact I am so pro freedom of individual choice that I don't think that anyone's individual choice should be compromised, unless it is someone choosing to compromise someone's freedom, which is self evident/goes without saying really.

 

 

 

You could say the same thing about anyone protesting/educating about ANY issue of the violation of rights.

 

Women's rights, sexuality rights, race rights, rights of the population/people (tibet, china's citizens, palestine, ukraine, and so on and so fourth).

 

Discussion in the 1800s/1920s/1940s

Person A: Let's stop beating slaves/slavery in general shall we?

Person A: Let's stop treating women like second class citizens shall we?

Person A: Let's stop this genocide shall we?

 

Reply from Person B to them all: I don't get the desire, or borderline psychotic drive in some people, to take other people who are different from them and try and force them to be like you.

 

If it was trying to force someone to like your favourite band, or wear your favourite clothes, or even practice the same spiritual practice or religion as you, then, yes, I'd agree with this reply, but, if you're just trying to prevent the violation of other peoples'/beings' choice/freedoms then, this is obviously a good thing? No?

 

We are all different and there is no one way for everyone.

We all come from source... if you believe eating meat will slow down your process, then don't eat it.

But this preachy, demanding, abusive desire to make everyone like you is odd to me... odd that it's so pervasive.

 

I don't understand why preachy is seen to be a negative word in these contexts, or at all. If wrong doing (the violation of the rights of others/induced suffering of others) is being done then it's surely quite an overtly good thing to spread information to try and stop it, no?

I find it odd that presenting pragmatic, factual information detailing the ethical/moral/environmental/practical/ecological problems with a certain behaviour/practice is perceived by anyone as "demanding, abusive".

 

I have found in a lot of people that they get defensive when something that causes cognitive dissonance within them is brought up; something that they know is wrong but they've sort of out-thought themselves of the negatives associated with it, with a very shallow resolution/argument (which is most always the case with resolving cognitive dissonance). I don't know if that's the case with this reply, that you're feeling the need to defend the position of meat-eating because it's something that you're engaged in, OR, whether you're simply defending freedom of choice.

 

Sincerely, wouldn't you want someone sticking up for your rights if they were being violated?

 

It's pretty much in all spiritual/wisdom-tradition/religious precepts that we should refrain from harming or violating the rights of others. As well as "do unto others." Most all spiritual traditions recognise the importance of the heart, of compassion, of virtue.

 

None of this is meant in a contrary argumentative spirit at all, just sincere, simple, question and answer.

 

[thelerner]

I eat meat yet I think vegetarianism is a more ethical diet.

It simply creates less suffering in the world, on multiple levels.

 

So why aren't I vegetarian?

Because the mind is only half willing

and the flesh is weak & tasty.

[Anoesjka]

Eating is almost like a religion, only the eating paradigm that one clings to seems good, all others bad.

 

Although there are some issues considering meat and the meat industry, I don't think we should force our views upon someone else, when it is clear that we as humans can mainly eat fruit and veggies and sometimes eat meat.

So, it is up to everyone to decide, but if you want to eat meat, do so respectfully and eat an animal that has lead a good life. And also be willing to kill an animal yourself, for it's easy to buy a steak at the supermarket, but it's much more difficult to kill the cow with your own hands.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Anoesjka

[Satya]

Eating is almost like a religion, only the eating paradigm that one clings to seems good, all others bad.

 

I don't think one diet is good and all others are bad. Everything is grey, no black and white. I think: Horrible (eating tortured factory farmed humans), bad (eating tortured factory farmed animals), good (eating foods with low environmental impact and animals that have been treated well), better (vegetarian diet with animal products from animals who are treated well), best (vegan diet), is more accurate; to me it is anyway.

 

For example, a vegetarian diet with battery/factory farmed eggs is arguably ethically worser off than a meat eating diet with meat from very well cared for animals.

Although there are some issues considering meat and the meat industry, I don't think we should force our views upon someone else, when it is clear that we as humans can mainly eat fruit and veggies and sometimes eat meat.

 

Again, if wrong doing is being done, if rights and freedoms are being violated, and this is perpetuated through inaction and ignoring the issues, then it's good to educate and remind people about these issues. I'm sure women, racial minorities and homosexuals post 21st century and oppressed citizens around the world would agree. Animals show gratitude when rescued from suffering/abusive situations, so, that's them agreeing, just not in english.

So, it is up to everyone to decide, but if you want to eat meat, do so respectfully and eat an animal that has lead a good life. And also be willing to kill an animal yourself, for it's easy to buy a steak at the supermarket, but it's much more difficult to kill the cow with your own hands.

Respect is a big part yes. As said above, buying meat from animals who were treated well, is to me, and, seemingly obviously, 1000 times better than buying factory farmed meat.

[Anoesjka]

@ Satya: I didn't mean you specifically, but when the debate is about diet it tends to become overheated in general. I've noticed it often, everywhere.

[Satya]

@ Satya: I didn't mean you specifically, but when the debate is about diet it tends to become overheated in general. I've noticed it often, everywhere.

I didn't think you meant me specifically, and, I do know what you mean. To be honest, in my experience, in previous years I've kept quiet and when friends have found out that I don't eat meat a weird thing takes place where, I haven't said anything but they seem to get quite heated with me, as if defending themselves to themselves out loud. A huge display of cognitive dissonance.

 

Whilst I acknowledge that there are SOME absolute-ers out there (as in all circles/settings) being anti-meat-industry, again, in my experience, most of them are pretty level headed about the whole thing and share my views of bad, good, better, best.

 

I of course agree that in all cases a happy animal is best.

[Tibetan_Ice]

If Buddha fed his own body to the starving lioness and her cubs, perhaps animals such as cows are beings whom have come to earth for the benefit of sentient beings. Perhaps by not eating meat, you are preventing the cows from accumulating merit.

 

It is a mystery to me how, while living on the earth plane without full knowledge of what existence is and how it works, that the mind creates its own observations and then judges others and events based on those limited observations and limited understandings.

[GrandmasterP]

Ask the cows whydontcha?

Given the franchise Turkeys would be unlikely to vote for either Christmas or Thanksgiving.

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

If Buddha fed his own body to the starving lioness and her cubs, perhaps animals such as cows are beings whom have come to earth for the benefit of sentient beings. Perhaps by not eating meat, you are preventing the cows from accumulating merit.

 

It is a mystery to me how, while living on the earth plane without full knowledge of what existence is and how it works, that the mind creates its own observations and then judges others and events based on those limited observations and limited understandings.

Choice and consent are the key differences here. Buddha fed his own body willingly; we can't know how the other animals feel about being killed and eaten in general of course but what we CAN see is instances of animals suffering, and factory farming and animal suffering are pretty much synonymous terms.

perhaps animals such as cows are beings whom have come to earth for the benefit of sentient beings. Perhaps by not eating meat, you are preventing the cows from accumulating merit.

And, it's not cows is it? It's souls/soul/brahman/self/consciousness/buddha-nature/formlessness/totality etc manifesting.

 

And, I can't know, but, I doubt this:

Perhaps by not eating meat, you are preventing the cows from accumulating merit.

is the case.

 

In any case, whilst it may have once been necessary to eat meat to survive, as I have illustrated, extensively, this certainly is no longer the case. There'd be more merit for all involved, it would alleviate a lot of tangible, knowable, overt suffering if the world cut meat out of it's diet, for the extensive reasons I have listed.

It is a mystery to me how, while living on the earth plane without full knowledge of what existence is and how it works, that the mind creates its own observations and then judges others and events based on those limited observations and limited understandings.

In the absolute sense all I can KNOW is that I exist. Everything else is a kind of relative knowledge. If this is what you mean by the above then you could apply the same argument to inducing any kind of suffering on animals, humans, whoever.

 

In terms of relative knowledge, which is really all we have to work with in terms of navigating consensus reality (it's how most all of the stuff that we're surrounded by was invented), then, our understanding of the suffering of animals is not limited whatsoever at all. All animals feel fear, pain and suffer to a certain extent. Other mammals especially. Pigs and cows especially. Pigs are so incredibly similar to us that they're considered/used for xenotransplantation (on a side note, this is VERY dodgy, as it could lead to new cross species disease, such as HIV [the solution is an opt out organ donation system, as they have in Belgium]). So, we know from extensive neuroscientific study that they (mammals like pigs and cows in particular) feel fear, pain and suffer. So, to recommend that we not induce suffering in these animals is not based on limited understanding at all.

 

And, again,

Again, if wrong doing is being done, if rights and freedoms are being violated, and this is perpetuated through inaction and ignoring the issues, then it's good to educate and remind people about these issues. I'm sure women, racial minorities and homosexuals post 21st century and oppressed citizens around the world would agree. Animals show gratitude when rescued from suffering/abusive situations, so, that's them agreeing, just not in english.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Satya

[Tibetan_Ice]

Satya,

How do you know that the cow didn't choose to become a cow in the bardo? How do you know that the cow has to learn the lesson of non attachment to the physical self? How do you know that not having a choice is not all part of the plan? How do you know?

 

When I watch a movie and watch people suffering I feel bad and it affects me. But when the movie is over, I realize that they were just actors acting out a part. It was all illusion. Keep a steady hand on that remote control...

 

How about this... When they start growing meat in laboratories are you going to eat it then?

And since when did life ever care if sentient beings suffer?

 

 

St. Peter: "That large green pasture is ready for our new visitors. But where are they?".

Gabriel: "We were supposed to receive a big shipment of cows today but everyone on earth quit eating meat. I guess we'll have to wait until they die of old age..."

St. Peter: "Oh I was so looking forward to seeing their smiling faces. Why don't we send another scourge of hoof and mouth disease down to earth to speed up the process?"

Edited August 2, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[silent thunder]

As for the projection of the cows and their path... no one can know.

 

As for acting/watching and pretend not affecting us, I disagree.

 

I was a professional actor for many years and while the mind might know it's fake... the affect on the body, mind and emotions is not fake. Even in the audience, although our mind knows it's fake, the affect on the emotional body can resonate for years. Think about some of the performances you've seen that still resonate with you, even a book can do this, but to actually play it out and witness this live? Impacting.

 

I still get emotional resurgences from past performances I participated in and some I just watched. Portraying Hamlet, Edmund, Lear... etc. etc. eight times a week for months... It would take me days or weeks to decompress after some shows ended. Many roles I stopped accepting toward the end, knowing what it would entail to jump into that water.

 

The sub-conscious does not know we are faking it.

The toll is very real, it's what made me decide to leave the biz.

[GrandmasterP]

"The toll is very real..."

Or

The toll is really veal?

Edited August 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[silent thunder]

I did perform in some summer stock as a teen, where my pay was basically food and a place to sleep out of the weather.

 

So the toll could readily have been veal.

[Tibetan_Ice]

That's udder nonsense. Doesn't get me in a good mooed. I'll quit horning in now...

Edited August 2, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[GrandmasterP]

Don't have a cow Man!

[Tibetan_Ice]

You can have your pie and eat it too.

 

Did you know that Muktananda used to eat cow pies? He would wait patiently by the cow and catch it before it hit the ground.

 

I guess he dung good!

Edited August 2, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[GrandmasterP]

Munir Baba ( the silent guru of Goa) supported his ashram by running a cow-dung-patty fuel business.

You did NOT shake hands when greeting Munir Baba ... Ever!

 

 

Stinky hands apart though, he was a really nice guy.

Never said a word ( he could speak but didn't) yet you could understand anything he wished to communicate through his expressions, gestures and whistles.

Edited August 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[eye_of_the_storm]

Eating is almost like a religion, only the eating paradigm that one clings to seems good, all others bad.

 

Although there are some issues considering meat and the meat industry, I don't think we should force our views upon someone else, when it is clear that we as humans can mainly eat fruit and veggies and sometimes eat meat.

 

So, it is up to everyone to decide, but if you want to eat meat, do so respectfully and eat an animal that has lead a good life. And also be willing to kill an animal yourself, for it's easy to buy a steak at the supermarket, but it's much more difficult to kill the cow with your own hands.

 

"I don't think we should force our views upon someone else"

 

What about forcing a knife into the belly of an animal, does that come under "force our views"

 

Or is there some double standard?

 

You would like your choices respected? What about the choices of animals?

 

What gives you the right to take their life?

 

You believe yourself to be more intelligent? more powerful?

 

Many seem to argue that. Following that thought process anyone smarter or stronger than themselves could capture them, strip them of their flesh and find it acceptable. If I was to speak out in favor of your life, welling being/ happiness, some would call that dogmatic (ahaha, sigh)

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Satya,

How do you know that the cow didn't choose to become a cow in the bardo? How do you know that the cow has to learn the lesson of non attachment to the physical self? How do you know that not having a choice is not all part of the plan? How do you know?

 

When I watch a movie and watch people suffering I feel bad and it affects me. But when the movie is over, I realize that they were just actors acting out a part. It was all illusion. Keep a steady hand on that remote control...

 

How about this... When they start growing meat in laboratories are you going to eat it then?

And since when did life ever care if sentient beings suffer?

 

 

St. Peter: "That large green pasture is ready for our new visitors. But where are they?".

Gabriel: "We were supposed to receive a big shipment of cows today but everyone on earth quit eating meat. I guess we'll have to wait until they die of old age..."

St. Peter: "Oh I was so looking forward to seeing their smiling faces. Why don't we send another scourge of hoof and mouth disease down to earth to speed up the process?"

 

Mad cow disease etc started because humans were feeding cows to cows, a huge violation of natural laws.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Saying Krishna ate meat (once?) therefore it is ok is equal to people using the Old Testament/ Torah to justify slavery.

Krishna is typically portrayed as such



As opposed to

[eye_of_the_storm]

Satya,

How do you know that the cow didn't choose to become a cow in the bardo? How do you know that the cow has to learn the lesson of non attachment to the physical self? How do you know that not having a choice is not all part of the plan? How do you know?

 

When I watch a movie and watch people suffering I feel bad and it affects me. But when the movie is over, I realize that they were just actors acting out a part. It was all illusion. Keep a steady hand on that remote control...

 

How about this... When they start growing meat in laboratories are you going to eat it then?

And since when did life ever care if sentient beings suffer?

 

 

St. Peter: "That large green pasture is ready for our new visitors. But where are they?".

Gabriel: "We were supposed to receive a big shipment of cows today but everyone on earth quit eating meat. I guess we'll have to wait until they die of old age..."

St. Peter: "Oh I was so looking forward to seeing their smiling faces. Why don't we send another scourge of hoof and mouth disease down to earth to speed up the process?"

 

That is why India for example can be such a hellish place.

 

A friend was traveling in India and saw a person hit by a car, no Indians stopped to help... as either "it was their karma to suffer and should suffer" or maybe "suffering is just an illusion" so we will leave the man die a long and painful death in the middle of the road for all to witness with indifference.

 

Perhaps yourself if hit by a car would be more than happy to have people ignore you?

 

That is why these ideologies are so opposite to humanity in its truest sense and should ultimately be discarded.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Tibetan_Ice]

Saying Krishna ate meat (once?) therefore it is ok is equal to people using the Old Testament/ Torah to justify slavery.

 

Krishna is typically portrayed as such

 

...

 

 

Gopi Krishna. Not the same person. Please don't misquote me.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-The-Evolutionary-Energy-Man/dp/1570622809

 

.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[eye_of_the_storm]

I didn't think you meant me specifically, and, I do know what you mean. To be honest, in my experience, in previous years I've kept quiet and when friends have found out that I don't eat meat a weird thing takes place where, I haven't said anything but they seem to get quite heated with me, as if defending themselves to themselves out loud. A huge display of cognitive dissonance.

 

Whilst I acknowledge that there are SOME absolute-ers out there (as in all circles/settings) being anti-meat-industry, again, in my experience, most of them are pretty level headed about the whole thing and share my views of bad, good, better, best.

 

I of course agree that in all cases a happy animal is best.

 

 

I rarely speak about such things to friends or family either unless asked. 99.99% online more effective I think + the ability share much more info + walk away.

 

I have experienced similar when eating a dish that didn't contain meat a person become somewhat hostile... very strange to see.

 

Many identify strongly with eating animal flesh and see it as an attack on their person.

 

Some of my examples may be harsh/ graphic, an attempt for others to see another perspective (which is uncomfortable)

 

I have found overtime many actually lack this ability, being psychopathic/ narcissistic in nature.

 

They will mimic the behaviors of the masses unable to experience true emotion. It is pointless making an appeal to them, if they see it as something more popular though in which they will gain popularity/ power also they will make a change.

 

Most empathic people will immediately start to make changes once they are aware of what is really happening.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

Gopi Krishna. Not the same person. Please don't misquote me.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-The-Evolutionary-Energy-Man/dp/1570622809

 

.

 

Ah, ok - not Krishna Krishna... haha

 

My mistake

 

Why take the name Krishna and then promote eating animal flesh, seems disingenuous/ deceptive/ corruption

 

It would be like calling yourself Jesus Christ and then practicing Usury, ha

 

Maybe change the name to Corpse Eating Demon? Less room for error that way

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air