Eating meat and the whole jazz around it. Was Sacrificing an act of love?

[4bsolute]

I have posted this already in a reply to another thread but I want to create this as an entire topic.

 

What is your standing towards eating meat? And I want you to be fully honest with yourselves and not rely on your transformation that occured inside you after you have watched certain dramatized media. Recall if your transformation was genuinely coming from yourself or from external information. I personally was influenced throught outside means. It did not grow in my own being and realization.

 

Meat tastes wonderful, what can I say? I am not "a" vegetarian or vegan, I mostly eat fruit and vegetables and nuts and seeds. But still I recall everything about meat. Would I come across the information that all animals are here to serve us on our path to enlightenment and that it is a great option to eat meat, especially that our bodies can digest it well, I would eat it again. But as you can see, as stupid as it sounds, you might say the same thing to yourself: All of this was not personal experience. So chances are huge that eating meat will occur again.

 

Honestly? How many individuals including myself stopped eating meat because of external information? I never had digestion issues myself and I never had any other problems in my body eating it. Not a single one. I had lower blood pressure when I was eating Red meat. Not high, as you should get. All of it started by the media and how it put it, the slaughtering off masses and the theory about animal empathy, showing cruel pictures. Then stories about actually killing an animal yourself, how it feels.

 

Surely I was barely eating fastfood. Until a point years back I compeltely stopped it. My whole family spend most interest in buying the most precious meat around. Meaning from farmers they know personally, animals they could see with their own eyes and how they were treated. You would call it grass fed beef, I believe. From free-roaming animals from a farm on a countryside. So we never ate negative emotions stored in those animals other than the realizations of those animal families, obviously knowing that they all are ending up being eaten, but until then they enjoy a comfortable life. You saw no desperation in the eyes of those animals. "Killing" happened through a quick tase.

 

Then you have the word killing. Killing in terms of taking life away. In a cruel way. You cant ever take life away since life always is everywhere. That being, you "killed" is just then roaming around in an energetic form respawning in the next moment as it's next desired creation. It is a soul like you and me. The soul itself does not care about being killed, because it is an infinite being that can never die nor be born. Then you do not "kill" a being in a cruel way and you do not rehash said cruel way of "ending" a life.

 

And there we had sacrifice all over the world. Sacrifice was a noble action. I can guarantee you that sacrifice was an act of love. How about you "kill" an animal out of love? To enjoy his flesh. Yes, from our restricted mind, our system barely filled with love if we not cultivate or create that love in this reality, it sounds absurd. Sacrificing animals instead of "killing" them might be eating meat 2.0 before we ultimately realize that we just consume various forms of light that are purer.

 

When I was eating meat a while ago, I was giving a prayer, like I do regularly before eating, but this time in an extraordinary way for giving my thank to that being, shortening it's time here and all the experience it could have gathered by serving me in this way of enjoying it's body.

 

So all the drama, starts here in the physical form. And why is that? Mostly through misconception, fantasy or taking on other ones belief. And how often do we do the latter? I truly want to see the other, infinite side. I can tell you that I am literally fed up with all this drama and misconception and I want to have a clear picture of what "karma" really is, if it even exists or maybe it is just another religious instrument of chastisement.

 

As you can see I do not want you to eat meat (again) I want you to be honest with your Self in terms of if you simply adapted other individuals beliefs of what is right or if it grew in your own being, adding to your own realization of your True Self

 

PS: Is there the theory of karma in Taoism?

Edited July 31, 2014 by 4bsolute

[nickyro]

IMO the subject of meat in the whole spiritual community is way too affected by traditionalism and moral considerations (for instance veganism in india ) that is hindering the very basis of their cultivation.

Also veganism looks more hardcore, so, it must be the way?

In "living with himalayan masters" swami Rama met a tantrika who ate meat and digestive spices with two of his yogini by his sides, this man was able to read into rama's mind, Kudos to this guy, can't be easy to inspire hatred and aversion in his own community. Rama jumped in the bandwagon with all the haters instead of learning.

Meat is tamasic but also has a unique effect on the energy (jing?) which leads to sexual energy or spiritual energy if it is fresh (unprocessed/unfrozen, and cooked) that is unmatched in the vegetal realm.

 

On a philosophical point of view, Life evolved and survived ONLY because some part of it was nourishing on others, nothing did it alone (well maybe the promordial bacteria or something like that?)

We should not look at this subject individualy, but with the grand scheme of Life itself.

Edited August 3, 2014 by nickyro

[eye_of_the_storm]

The sacrificing of Animal (+ Human) life was and will never be an act of love. It is and will always be an act of fear, selfishness.

The only sacrifice that is loving is when a person sacrifices themselves by their own freewill.

I became vegetarian when I was 18 after being given a small pamphlet showing the horrors of "livestock" ... having never considered deeply what I was involved in until that moment (which I am very grateful for) ... with this understanding I could no longer be part of that.

I did however make an allowance for fish after a year to ease social situations... like going to a friends place and being offered fish as a vegetarian dish, I found it hard to refuse. So I let that slip for 7ish years, not putting much consciousness into it... I myself probably wouldn't have been able to kill a fish... I recall going on a couple of fishing trips in my youth and watching with grimace people putting worms on hooks, everyone seemed so indifferent which I think initially confused my natural aversion to this cruelty. Accepting it as "what is" or the like. What is sometimes isn't good enough though. Social patterns/ expectations + "justifications" will lead you in circles.

The next step being Veganism, which I am working toward...95% at present, again working out the social hurdles.

How can we want freedom, happiness, peace for ourselves if we are unwilling to give it to others?

This forum I believe is dedicated to the expansion of consciousness, part of that expansion is most certainly the ability to empathize and go beyond yourself. To be able to imagine yourself as another, to feel what they feel etc.

Animal flesh is in my understanding The "Forbidden Fruit", The fall from Grace/ Divinity was when humans (in origin vegetarian) starting killing and eating animals. This may have been around 5000-10000 years ago.

The religious/spiritual texts/ Civilizations that predate Judaism, Christianity, Islam all forbade animal blood sacrifices and promoted a vegetarian diet. From Ancient Iran to Ancient India, Greece, Egypt

Our intrinsic self is at peace with Nature + Animals.

Edited July 31, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Bearded Dragon]

I love meat and I'll continue to eat it unless I have some profound realisation. I don't think that realisation will come.

 

I say that some animals can only eat meat. Then a vegetarian responds with some sort of logic whereby since we are intellectually smarter then that makes it immoral. Nope, that one doesn't stick with me.

 

The point of cruelty IS a valid reason for not eating meat. It is not a valid reason for not eating any meat. The animal can lead a good life and at the end they die instantly and pain-free.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I recall something like 70% of the animals on this planet eat only plant material

I never understood how good they feel until trying a raw plant based diet myself for a week,

The bees must really be buzzing with a diet of pollen/ nectar

Edited July 31, 2014 by White Wolf Running On Air

[C T]

Eating meat has a heavier karma, and dont think eating veg alone has no karma, there's karma too, only lighter.

Maybe this points to meat-eaters having to invest more time in practice, and non-meat eaters less, but there's no evidence to suggest that not eating meat makes one 'purer' than a meat-eating spiritual cultivator.

 

I think this is mostly an individual preference. The Buddha's advice to determine everything using our own discriminating insights and inner perception is very apt in this regard. If we are mindful, we will know precisely what is the right course of action that brings the least harm to ourselves and other sentient beings. This is a good approach, at least until we reach the higher levels of insight anyway. At that point, we can look towards blessing every single being by turning all of our body, speech and mind activities for the benefit of leading beings to the shores of enlightenment, just like buddhas and bodhisattvas do, without a moment's hesitation.

 

Personally, being a chef, my work requires that i eat everything, to taste everything to make sure that standards are maintained. I have to constantly evaluate menus and stuff, and this presents quite a challenge when i have to explain to some students who question my meat-eating routine.

 

Over the years, i have consciously reduced meat consumption simply because i listen to my body telling me that less is best. So other than work commitments, in personal life i might now only eat meat once or twice a week, whereas before it used to be a daily thing. This has nothing at all to do with my spiritual practice, which is supposed to be beyond mundanity, and things like food, clothing and shelter, in my book, is definitely classified as mundane considerations and should not impact us to the point that we set up traps and/or potholes for ourselves where there should be none.

[soaring crane]

Are any of the Chinese sifus vegan?

[C T]

Are any of the Chinese sifus vegan?

I believe that there are a number of them in Malaysia who are. Hermits who live in cave temples, with simple diets, mostly grown themselves or taken from the community veg plots.

[sunchild]

Animal flesh is in my understanding The "Forbidden Fruit", The fall from Grace/ Divinity was when humans (in origin vegetarian) starting killing and eating animals. This may have been around 5000-10000 years ago.

 

what.

[idiot_stimpy]

The sad thing is, we are all parasites, relaying on something else for survival.

[Silent Answers]

I love meat and I'll continue to eat it unless I have some profound realisation. I don't think that realisation will come.

 

I say that some animals can only eat meat. Then a vegetarian responds with some sort of logic whereby since we are intellectually smarter then that makes it immoral. Nope, that one doesn't stick with me.

 

The point of cruelty IS a valid reason for not eating meat. It is not a valid reason for not eating any meat. The animal can lead a good life and at the end they die instantly and pain-free.

 

It's not that we are smarter and should chose a better path...it's that we have any choice at all in the matter. Most other species have evolved to specifically eat one or the other. I like to think that as I have the choice, I should choose the least destructive. There may come a time where I'm all out of veg and I'm chowing down on some frozen ass cheek...but until that day comes...

[Spotless]

Not long ago my diet changed largely because of an energy change - eating and drinking certain things effected my energy so negatively that however much I loved them it was clear that they were real downers. I dropped alcohol dispite my enjoyment of wine and beer - it was like having a cigarette - it just dimmed my space in a trashy sort of way.

 

Then I had to tackle angina which had come about quickly and I have since gotten rid of it, but it required becoming a vegan and chelation therapy. I was always a bloody rare red meat eater - though I had been a vegetarian when I was younger and doing intense yoga meditation practice. The "required" change away from meat came at the same time I dropped away from alcohol.

 

The immediate effect was so clearly positive that I also wondered if perhaps the "coincidence" was not something more.

 

If I were now told that my veins were all completely clear and I could go back to the red or white meat I definitely would not.

I do not view alcohol with disdain nor meat but at this point they are downers. They immediately effect my energy in a leadening way.

 

Regarding it purely as an energy component, it may be for some that meat would be recommended just as for some retention is recommended. If you are low in Yang energies, yang support.

 

I am now also far more sensitive to the different energies in vegetables and they effect they have at different times of the day.

 

Spices have very significant effects. In have always liked very spicy foods and a great range of spices and foods from all over the world. It is amazing how much they effect things like our hearing, breathing, skin, eyes and many other subtle things. The last thing I thought I would ever curtail is my use of spices but this too has really taken a downturn. This is also partly because my taste buds are much better than before.

 

As one moves off of meat and reduces animal fat from the diet, taste becomes cleaner and the ability to taste increases (at least in my case). As I moved away from oils as well, the whole experience of food changed. Meats now have a very heavy greasy ness to them that is so pronounced that it overrides any sentimental pining that I might have had - I have no pining what so ever.

 

I am now enjoying the extraordinarily taste filled world of the Vegan - who knew!

I cheat on the oil because it is very difficult to be strict on this point but I do not add oil to anything.

 

I enjoy eating at my masters house - he is a Shaolin monk that is very good at cooking simple fair. He is also a master of the healing arts and always has interesting foods that he puts in front of me. Since we are both vegan it makes it easy to share dinners and neither of us have a rigid ethic in this so we do not fidget over minor infractions if they present themselves.

 

We both like spicy food but it is very different having raw spicy vs spicy spice blended foods - he frequently has fine thin hot peppery things that one can choose to put directly in your mouth with the chopsticks or add to a spoon of soup or sip of soup or the whole bowl. It is a much more delicate singular approach to food and combining than what is more common to most of us in western culture.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Spotless

[GrandmasterP]

Eat whatever you like to eat, it's 'dinner' not a cause.

'My diet's the BEST diet' faddists are right up there with Buddhabums and MoPai boosters.

Boring.

On another forum I visit there's a vegan versus veggie versus carnivore thread been running for years and still nobody posting on it has agreed on anything.

Apart from them all liking arguing that is.

Edited July 31, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[4bsolute]

Eat whatever you like to eat, it's 'dinner' not a cause.

'My diet's the BEST diet' faddists are right up there with Buddhabums and MoPai boosters.

Boring.

On another forum I visit there's a vegan versus veggie versus carnivore thread been running for years and still nobody posting on it has agreed on anything.

Apart from them all liking arguing that is.

 

This is what you see in our expanding society: War is now who eats healthier.

 

But what use is eating so called healthy, in terms of balancing and healing foods when what you speak and what you think is creating more problems then sticking to a regular diet? Yes, that question came up often in resent present moments.

 

On the other side I have no interest in encouraging other individuals to continue eating their regular sensual diet, while never putting effort in actually creating genuine emotions that come from one Self, are at one point stable and not substituted. Like the food mostly is, leaving the individual in an illusionairy world that all is fine. But when there is no substitution, hell breaks loose.

Edited July 31, 2014 by 4bsolute

[4bsolute]

Eating meat has a heavier karma, and dont think eating veg alone has no karma, there's karma too, only lighter.

Maybe this points to meat-eaters having to invest more time in practice, and non-meat eaters less, but there's no evidence to suggest that not eating meat makes one 'purer' than a meat-eating spiritual cultivator.

 

I think this is mostly an individual preference. The Buddha's advice to determine everything using our own discriminating insights and inner perception is very apt in this regard. If we are mindful, we will know precisely what is the right course of action that brings the least harm to ourselves and other sentient beings. This is a good approach, at least until we reach the higher levels of insight anyway. At that point, we can look towards blessing every single being by turning all of our body, speech and mind activities for the benefit of leading beings to the shores of enlightenment, just like buddhas and bodhisattvas do, without a moment's hesitation.

 

Personally, being a chef, my work requires that i eat everything, to taste everything to make sure that standards are maintained. I have to constantly evaluate menus and stuff, and this presents quite a challenge when i have to explain to some students who question my meat-eating routine.

 

Over the years, i have consciously reduced meat consumption simply because i listen to my body telling me that less is best. So other than work commitments, in personal life i might now only eat meat once or twice a week, whereas before it used to be a daily thing. This has nothing at all to do with my spiritual practice, which is supposed to be beyond mundanity, and things like food, clothing and shelter, in my book, is definitely classified as mundane considerations and should not impact us to the point that we set up traps and/or potholes for ourselves where there should be none.

 

Thank you and others.

 

Yes, karma is nothing to worry about. Regardless of what religions have made out of it. It's a form of learning.

 

But ask yourself, do you really have to stick with the job you are doing? There are vegan restaurants. Eating meat because you have to, for taste, is an excuse

 

Btw cave temples, I had to google it .. beautiful crafts

[Anoesjka]

I have been a vegetarian for most of my life, with the exception of the time when my daughter was small. I was 12 when I became one, influenced by my hippie brother.

 

My motivation is very mixed, health plays a part, compassion, and the realization that for so many people on this planet to have something to eat, we'll have to reduce meat intake.

 

I sometimes eat meat, when I feel I have to, and I did so yesterday. But my guts can't handle it anymore, I have cramps and a lot of gas.

 

Since a while I'm pondering upon going fruitarian, I don't like a lot of tastes anymore, but I like sweet things and fruit. Are there some fruitarians here, or people with experiences in that direction?

[C T]

Thank you and others.

 

Yes, karma is nothing to worry about. Regardless of what religions have made out of it. It's a form of learning.

 

But ask yourself, do you really have to stick with the job you are doing? There are vegan restaurants. Eating meat because you have to, for taste, is an excuse

 

Btw cave temples, I had to google it .. beautiful crafts

Yes, for this life at least, afraid i have to stick to what i do best. As mentioned, for me, its not a moral consideration, although in my daily life, i am mindful of alleviating the distress of even the tiniest of insects, and will not intentionally harm any, in fact, if i see a trapped insect, perhaps a fly that had fallen into a pool of water, or sometimes a worm may be found struggling on the tarmac, i will spontaneously scoop it up and gently place it somewhere out of harm's way. I know full well there are many that escape my attention, and many others do get killed as a result of my actions, for eg, driving at night would inevitably cause the death of thousands of insects, so to balance this, i will chant rounds of Mani mantras for those are killed.

 

At this stage of my evolution, i am comfortable with having cultivated the habit of feeling a sort of urgency to help when i see suffering and try my best to ease that whenever possible, and as a result, this has sharpened my motivation aka bodhicitta. Im far from perfect in this, but at least, i try my best to keep my eyes open in the presence of sentient distress. I love dogs immensely, and sometimes tears would well up in my eyes whenever i come across wanton cruelty being laid upon these beautiful animals, and even other animals, for that matter. Down the road, i can see that a pensioner's ambition of mine would be to set up some sort of animal sanctuary where neglected or homeless animals can find shelter and get a decent amount of care which they deserve. Its a dream which may yet turn to reality. If it does, it will go some way to balance my karma.

[Satya]

I haven't read the above points, so, forgive me if anything's repeated here, but, I'm just going to come at this from a pragmatic, scientific and moral basis (and most decent spiritual practice is pragmatic, scientific and moral anyway).

None of this is an attack on anyone, it's just presenting logical information. Do try not to take it personally; you are not your behaviours, so, try to not get defensive when they're challenged.

A: It's not necessary to eat meat.
B: "After energy production, livestock is the second-highest contributor to atmosphere-altering gases.
C: Stop antibiotic resistant superbugs.
D: There's no room for meat.
E: Many meats are bad for you.
F: Help the starving masses.
G: Stop encouraging murderous/psychopathic tendencies.
H: Stop the genuine, severe, horrible, perpetual suffering of animals.
I: The only pro from these extensive pros/CONS is "but I like how it tastes".

A: It's not necessary to eat meat. You can get everything you need from vegan diet and an inexpensive B12 supplement, or a vegetarian diet. If you live in the jungle and you can't buy tofu or find mushrooms, or buy a B12 supplement then, hunting down some food is one thing, it's necessary, for anyone in the developed world, it is not. I apply the phrase/philosophy "Do unto others." to all living things, and, I would not want someone have me be born; spend my life in a room with hardly enough space to move throughout my entire, miserable, sickly life; be surrounded by many others who are suffering; live in unsanitary conditions; be fed horrible food; be abused by people around me; with no sunlight and then be killed, IF they did not HAVE TO. We do not have to. Even for free range animals, many of these 'free range' regulations don't mean much, and a lot of animals are still in cramped conditions. And, still, I still would not want someone killing and eating me, if they didn't have to. We do not have to. This SHOULD really be argument enough, but, there are many more reasons not to eat meat. For those who say "but what about plants? what if they feel pain?"; well, for one, from an axiomatic and spiritual perspective, plants are lower down on the scale of conscious awareness than animals (if at all on it). There may be some indication in some preliminary research that plants may respond to stimuli, but, this is far removed from the concepts of pain induced suffering experienced by animals, especially humans and other mammals. Also, plants reach the end of their lifecycle or at least a decent age before we tend to eat them. With fruit, nuts and seeds for example, the plant releases these things willingly and they are no longer part of the living plant when they fall from the trees/plants.

B: "After energy production, livestock is the second-highest contributor to atmosphere-altering gases. Nearly one-fifth of all greenhouse gas is generated by livestock production -- more than transportation. Now, you can make all the jokes you want about cow farts, but methane is 20 times more poisonous than CO2, and it's not just methane. Livestock is also one of the biggest culprits in land degradation, air and water pollution, water shortages and loss of biodiversity. There's more. Like half the antibiotics in this country are not administered to people, but to animals."

 

From: What's wrong with what we eat" http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_bittman_on_what_s_wrong_with_what_we_eat

C: Stop antibiotic resistant superbugs. The indiscriminate use of antibiotics in the livestock industry at large, but, particularly factory farming creates a VERY REAL potential for some VERY NASTY superbugs, that could result in massive death/suffering of a lot of animals, AND, bugs can easily adapt to humans, so, could result in epidemics/endemics of HUGE populations, resulting in needless suffering and deaths of many, not to mention the costs and burden on healthcare systems this would bring.

D: There's no room for meat. You get more nutrition per relative land mass from plants than you do from livestock. We're running out of space on this planet, if we continue where we're headed we'll all have to go vegan pretty soon.

"In 1944 the average American farm produced 2,300 calories of food energy for ever calorie of fossil fuel energy that went into the fields.

 

In 74 that ratio became 1:1.

 

In 2004 it became two-thousand to one the wrong way round thanks to oil-based pesticides, insecticides, and nitrogen fertilizers (which are made from natural gas a side-product of oil wells) tractors, combines, refrigeration, four figure food miles.

 

You’d think the top item on ever news story ever night would be ‘How are we going to feed ourselves when the oil runs out?’

 

There’s a brilliant book out at the moment called ‘Who will feed China: wake up call for a small planet’, although I think there are asking the wrong question the question should be, ‘Wen will feed China’. Who’s doing any research into this?

 

One little place The Ecology Institute in Willits, California; they’ve said ‘Okay, starting with the presumption that there’ll be 7.5 billion of us in the middle of the 21st century, what’s the minimum amount of land per person we need to devote to agriculture, to support that population without fossil fuels? They worked out 2800 square feet, so it’s do-able.

 

Their calculations, I should say, are based on bio-intensive farming a strictly vegan diet and composting all plant and human waste, including post mortem humans."

 

From: Robert Newman's A History Of Oil (documentary); transcript: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robnewman.com%2Fhistoryofoil.doc&ei=V5baU_z2JfOV7AaBq4GIAg&usg=AFQjCNG5IndOzyFyCyxV48H68lvzIFi80Q&sig2=FMNxF3KAcJHNnKhqM7THyg&bvm=bv.72185853,d.ZGU

E: Many meats are bad for you. Not only is eating meat not necessary, in many cases it's actually healthier not to. Many types of meat are just plain bad for you and increase the risk/incidence of all kinds of health problems, and, most all of them take a huge amount of the bodies resources to digest. http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/the-truth-about-red-meat

F: Help the starving masses. "While there is ample reason for indignation at the 100 million tons of grain used for biofuels, more than seven times as much grain (760 million tons) is fed to farmed animals so that people can eat meat." http://action.petaindia.com/ea-campaign/clientcampaign.do?ea.client.id=111&ea.campaign.id=2891

G: Stop encouraging murderous/psychopathic tendencies. Relatively new to neuroscience is the discovery of the phenomena of neuroplasticity. This basically means that we now know that from repeating certain actions/behaviours we build good or bad habits. A lot of factory farms/livestock farms genuinely, seriously provide the ground for psychopathic, un-empathic tendencies to be engrained in people; people get used to cutting up flesh, and are able to dish out abuse all day to animals and in a lot of cases mammals who can clearly feel pain and clearly express that pain. Here are some examples:

http://www.walmartcruelty.com

People aren't born bad. Murders have usually ended up that way from a combination of biochemistry, genetics, neurology, AND environment, habits, lifestyle, etc. Whilst many people with the potential biochemistry of a psychopath never murder or cause physical harm, some do, and, it's not the most far out theory that those who have engrained in them the act of killing and inducing suffering on mammals would then take it further to more intelligent mammals, aka humans. Katherine Knights a good example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Knight

Of course, there are going to be a great many farmers and livestock workers who empathise with the animals they're working with, and in no way revel in their pain, I am just presenting logical, reasoned information that suggests that for those with the underlying biochemistry required of murder/inducing suffering, the meat industry is going to potentially create and reinforce some quite dangerous (for everyone) habits.

H: Stop the genuine, severe, horrible, perpetual suffering of animals. All animals feel pain. Most all of them feel fear. The great majority of those that we eat feel very real fear, pain, misery and suffering. If you're part of that chain of supply and demand, then, in addition to contributing to all of the above problems, you are contributing to the very real and horrible suffering of innocent animals. If you've ever seen anyone or any animal suffering in your life and been saddened by this then, to let the outsourcing of this murder/suffering/meat production lead to an out of sight out of mind situation where you just ignore it is ignorant, and cruel.

I: The only pro from these extensive pros/CONS is "but I like how it tastes". The bottom line is, it's not necessary, and, a simple analysis of the costs and benefits presented here or anywhere quickly reveals that with all of the negatives/costs, to the world, the individual, and the animals themselves, the only pro remaining to be "but I like how it tastes", is incredibly outweighed, and, by any sane person should be seen to be not a justification at all. All other pro meat eating arguments fall under some kind of informal logical fallacy/thinking error (you can work out which ones fall under what, it would take too much of my time to go through all of them), and are thus irrelevant/not true/not real:

"Appeal to popularity: Argues for a claim purely on the grounds that other people (without any

clear expertise in the matter) accept it.

Argument from ignorance: Maintains that since we don’t have evidence against some claim, the claim

must be true.

False cause: Argues that there is a correlation between two things and then concludes,

on that basis, that cause and effect has been shown.

Irrelevance: Attempts to support a claim by way of a reason that is not relevant to

the claim.

Begging the question: Assumes as a premise what it claims to be proving. Seeks to support a

conclusion by appealing to that same conclusion.

Slippery slope: Claims that an innocent-looking fi rst step will lead to bad consequences,

but doesn’t provide reasons as to why or how one will lead to the other."

From: Cognitive Psychology, 6th Edition, Eysenck and Keane

So, in short, if you have read these, then, the only logical, moral, ecological, economical conclusion is to stop eating meat and switch to a nice healthy vegetarian or vegan diet.

[C T]

Hi Satya, nice article, educational videos too, but nicer still, and definitely more meaningful, would be hearing words echoing from your own heart.

[GrandmasterP]

 

This is what you see in our expanding society: War is now who eats healthier.

 

But what use is eating so called healthy, in terms of balancing and healing foods when what you speak and what you think is creating more problems then sticking to a regular diet? Yes, that question came up often in resent present moments.

 

On the other side I have no interest in encouraging other individuals to continue eating their regular sensual diet, while never putting effort in actually creating genuine emotions that come from one Self, are at one point stable and not substituted. Like the food mostly is, leaving the individual in an illusionairy world that all is fine. But when there is no substitution, hell breaks loose.

Not you buddy... this just me thinking out loud.

All respect to any and all dietary choices.

Whatever we grew up eating if we were lucky enough to get enough to eat... That's 'home' food.

Most people stick to that and maybe enjoy a few forays into different dishes.

It's all good.

Food faddists get to a place where dinner becomes a statement that somehow defines them...

" I am a veggie."

" I am a vegan."

" I am a meat eater."

.....

"YOU ( meaning the rest of us who eat differently to them) are all wrong. My diet is the only right diet!"

Well 'duh'... OK, be whatever you choose and chow hearty on whatever foods float your boat but don't preach it to others who have differing tastes and have made different dietary choices.

We can all of us respect difference and whatever goes into someone's mouth as food does not define them.

It's what comes out of folks' mouths as words that defines and delineates what's in their hearts.

Edited July 31, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

Hi Satya, nice article, educational videos too, but nicer still, and definitely more meaningful, would be hearing words echoing from your own heart.

Thank you.

 

Though, all of the writings ARE words from my heart

 

Otherwise I wouldn't have spent 30 minutes or so putting the bloody thing together!

 

Point A, H and I would be closest to my heart. I try and live by do unto others, I include animals/sentients creatures in this. To induce suffering in another in self defence is not pleasant to me (when breaking up a fight); to induce suffering in another for survival is not a pleasant idea to me (if I had to kill an animal to eat it to survive, in a dessert island scenario). Both of these examples are arguably necessary. To induce suffering in another needlessly, for something so incredibly unimportant as a sensory flavour preference is unthinkable to me, and goes against most all spiritual, moral, ethical precepts I can imagine; particularly spiritual in which sensory pleasure is recognised to be fleeting, pointless and unimportant.

 

All of the other genuinely real pragmatic issues make vegan/vegetarian diet/lifestyle a complete no brainer, to me.

[soaring crane]

The sad thing is, we are all parasites, relaying on something else for survival.

 

but if that's simply The Way It Is -- why would you deem it 'sad'?

[soaring crane]

I believe that there are a number of them in Malaysia who are. Hermits who live in cave temples, with simple diets, mostly grown themselves or taken from the community veg plots.

 

'a number of hermits in Malaysia' isn't what I was asking about.

 

Is Wang Liping vegetarian? I know Jang Jwing-Ming isn't. And I had dinner twice recently with Lam Kan Chuen -- first time was at a gourmet steak house, and the next time was Greek, where he order a mixed grill platter with fries.

[Satya]

All respect to any and all dietary choices.

 

It's all good.

Food faddists get to a place where dinner becomes a statement that somehow defines them...

" I am a veggie."

" I am a vegan."

" I am a meat eater."

 

"YOU ( meaning the rest of us who eat differently to them) are all wrong. My diet is the only right diet!"

Well 'duh'... OK, be whatever you choose and chow hearty on whatever foods float your boat but don't preach it to others who have differing tastes and have made different dietary choices.

We can all of us respect difference and whatever goes into someone's mouth as food does not define them.

It's what comes out of folks' mouths as words that defines and delineates what's in their hearts.

 

I agree with this in part. I don't know whether you're giving the green light for factory farming, and/or meat eating in countries/scenarios where it is completely unnecessary. If so, then, I am pro freedom, but, equally, pro non-violation, and considering this, respecting the rights and lives of others, re: dietary preferences, to me, it's not all good.

 

I don't mind what people do in terms of their personal choices/freedom, just as long as it doesn't violate/harm others. I'm sure you'd agree. People would think it insane if someone raised an argument that was pro-murder/suffering of humans, arguing in the spirit of 'respecting the different choices and lifestyles of others who just plain like murdering/causing suffering', and a lot of these mammals are incredibly similar to us, and truly experience pain, fear and suffering.

 

Eating meat by and large violates and harms: the animals involved, the earth/planet and society, for all of the above reasons listed in the previous posts.

 

There are of course exceptions. If you live in the wilderness and hunt your meat (as I said previously) then, you're eating it for survival. Any instances where it's needed are of course understandable, and, in my personal eyes, are ok.

 

To repeat: I don't mind what people do in terms of their personal choices/freedom, just as long as it doesn't violate/harm others. Not eating animal products is a result/symptom (if you will) of this overarching principle that I try and live by, and I think this is the same/applies to many. I agree, there ARE food faddists out there who identify with and define themselves by their dietary preference, but, I think that by and large these are the minority, and, either way, if you're not inducing needless suffering then, it doesn't really matter what your motivations are.

[子泰]

Honestly? How many individuals including myself stopped eating meat because of external information?

 

Good question, but also, how many individuals have begun eating meat because of external information?