Sectarian bickering

[goldisheavy]

I've been participating on the various forums for many years. As I was reading a yet another sectarian exchange on TTB, I started to reflect on sectarianism. I think I have come to a new understanding.

 

I'm an independent thinker and practitioner, but as far as traditions go, I've spent most of my time with the Buddhist doctrine. I also seriously love Daoism. I love the three classics, Daodejing, Zhuangzi, and Liezi. However, it would be a mistake to call my affection for Daoism purely a philosophical one, unless we use the ancient definition of philosophy as the love of wisdom. Beyond that I've read something from almost every tradition on this planet, and I found many interesting things here and there.

 

In all this time I realized I actually don't give a crap about Buddhism, Daoism, or any other tradition. What I want is to understand myself and to grow my personal power, because I am tired of being a human being.

 

I think that in some sense the differences between the traditions are quite valuable and these differences should be preserved for posterity, because it is these different angles that helped to illuminate my own being for me, and if this benefit occurred to me, surely it can occur to someone else as well. It's like placing a variety of mirrors around my body to see what it looks like from different angles. Each mirror only helps, and in the end, I have to be the one doing the looking and the understanding, and I am the ultimate judge of quality and authenticity, and thus, I am the ultimate authority. This puts all the responsibility and burden for my own spiritual development on me. If something goes wrong, I can't blame some Guru. It's all on me from now on and forever. However, if I do succeed, there is no credit to any Guru. No blame, and no credit. That's what happens when a person takes complete responsibility.

 

If there are any Gurus out there who want to take credit for anything that happens to other people, please, be prepared to take blame when things go wrong, and they will.

 

It's not normal for beings to behave as I do. I have internalized all authority and authenticity. I do not seek confirmation, validation, approval. I am not a normal being. A sense of belonging, that warm feeling of being in a cozy and cool club, such sentiments mean nothing to me. Before, people who belonged to quasi-secret clubs really used to piss me off. Now that anger is gone, and I just see them as pathetic stragglers, desperate to fill the gap in their hearts with a sense of belonging, and they get this sense by excluding others, and by differentiating themselves. They define what their turf is, and then they protect it. It's a bonding exercise.

 

And here's what else I see. I see people who think that their own minds are worthless, incapable, and not worthy of trust, which in one word can be called insecurity. These people operate under assumptions of externalized authority and authenticity. Externalized authenticity means that if some spiritual experience or a realization happens, you are not allowed to claim it for yourself and you're not allowed to regard it as something genuine. You must go to some external source of authenticity, usually some Guru, and confirm your understanding, experience, and whatever else. Everything new in your life needs a stamp of approval. Without this stamp of approval you feel like you're nothing, worthless. It's the Guru's stamp, and the belonging to the lineage that confers wealth, status, legitimacy, everything. And if your lineage is criticized, you must defend it as if were your life on the line, because your identity is completely dependent on it. Without your Guru's stamp of approval, you're nothing. If your Guru's image is tarnished by some sectarians, you must defend your Guru, or else his stamp will lose its social value. And so you must become a sectarian yourself to fight off other sectarians all in an effort to protect yourself.

 

If only any of you could understand how lordly and glorious my being is right now. How free and easy. How far away I am from all such meaningless and petty hassle. And all that is thanks to my spontaneous decision to take up deity yoga, where I conceive of myself as a deity. Soon after I'd done that, authority and authenticity were internalized. Old challenges were solved. Now I face new and interesting challenges instead of petty bullshit like before. I became a deity without permission, and as soon as I'd done that I've realized in fact it's the only way to become a deity. Had I asked permission in the form of an empowerment, I'd fail to actualize my current state, because I'd still be externalizing authority and authenticity.

 

When most of the people take up deity yoga like I have, and I invite you all to take it up, sectarianism will become irrelevant.

 

Imagine whatever highest achievements and accomplishments. When they happen, where and how do they happen? Can you see it? They happen in the space of your subjective experience. The word "subjective" is very important here. And they happen as a result of what? Do you think achievement happens as a result of understanding a doctrine, or a lineage, or a set of practices? Of course not! Achievement happens as a result of you understanding yourself!

 

In fact, if you understood all the doctrines incorrectly, and you've performed all the practices wrongly, but you've managed to understand yourself in the process, congratulations, because you've become lordly and glorious, a field of merit worthy of offerings, a joyous one, one beyond limitations, a dancer of illusion, a happy lunatic.

 

If you let anyone be the judge of whether or not you understand yourself correctly, you'll be in a world of pain. This is why fighting against subjectivity is a grave error. Instead, you should embrace yourselves 100%, even though you know full well that your way is not the only way. Taking this attitude you will be on a straight and narrow path toward all the mysteries and sectarianism will be over.

 

May it be so.

[rene]

GIH, hi, nice to see you again.

 

Outstanding post.

 

Deities, by definition or historical assignment, are supposed to know what is 'better' for us or others. I'm not smart enough to know what is 'better' for someone else... so, like you, the free and easy, away from meaningless and petty hassle is enjoyed and experienced fully, only for me without the diety aspect. I'll leave it to you to re-arrange the universe as you see fit; I kinda like it the way it is. (-:

 

The release you feel is palpable and I wish you well on your path.

 

warm regards

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

For me, it isn't about refuge in an internal guru or elevating oneself to godlike status. It's not about power at all. It's about freedom. The problem isn't this or that authority, or this or that judgment. The problem is in creating authority and making judgments in the first place.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[goldisheavy]

For me, it isn't about refuge in an internal guru or elevating oneself to godlike status. It's not about power at all. It's about freedom. The problem isn't this or that authority, or this or that judgment. The problem is in creating authority and making judgments in the first place.

 

So you have judged that judgements are problematic? I'm not surprised.

[thelerner]

Before, people who belonged to quasi-secret clubs really used to piss me off. Now that anger is gone, and I just see them as pathetic stragglers,

While I applaud giving up anger at strangers who belong to quasi-secret clubs, I can't help assuming when a person stops thinking of other groups as pathetic, they're further along the way.

 

Just as anger hurts the person who holds it, so does dividing the world into who's pathetic and who's not. Sometimes such thoughts come of themselves, but dwelling and feeding on it, seems like back pedaling. Maybe we can't control such thoughts, but we don't have to hold onto them.

 

The worst thing about quasi-secret groups is thinking they're so much better then everyone else. They're the best all others are pathetic. Yet, at times we are a group of one, guilty of such ego expanding states. Not easily overcome but at least we can avoid clinging to it.

 

And at times it might be true enough of some negative groups that there is some wisdom to stay away from them, but even then, move away, body and mind.

[MooNiNite]

i cant even read all that.. but good post

[forestofclarity]

You have to see it to believe it. Stepping away from thoughts, judgments, and the thinking mind reveals a new world of possibilities.

 

So you have judged that judgements are problematic? I'm not surprised.

[goldisheavy]

You have to see it to believe it. Stepping away from thoughts, judgments, and the thinking mind reveals a new world of possibilities.

 

So you don't see how what you describe is nothing more than thoughts and judgements?

[thelerner]

So you don't see how what you describe is nothing more than thoughts and judgements?

As soon as we type (or read) aren't we entering the world of thoughts?

Thought = useful tool to pick up and put down as needed. Not to confused with being. ?

[goldisheavy]

As soon as we type (or read) aren't we entering the world of thoughts?

 

I don't think "entering" is the word I'd use.

 

Thought = useful tool to pick up and put down as needed. Not to confused with being. ?

 

Do you mean being as something separate or different from phenomenal reality?

[thelerner]

I don't think "entering" is the word I'd use.

 

 

Do you mean being as something separate or different from phenomenal reality?

Off to look up phenomenal reality...

Kant's definition..

Plato's noumenon ideal...

phenomenal vs noumenal..

pictures of Morpheous with red and green pills...

Zen interpretations.. interesting.

 

What I was aiming at was a good mind, is a quiet mind. When not needed a man should keep 'thought' tucked away in his tool box. Have faith in our empty unplanned, unthinking mind, unless there's a problem that requires it. Course if we find our unthinking mind is untrustworthy and stupid then screw thoughtless spontaneity.

 

That was the aim, from the little study I did, it seems once you get thinking it colors the world into phenomenal reality. Versus noumenal which just views and accepts the world as it is, so keeping things noumenal..actually Actually phenomenal and noumenal are too philosophical for my tastes. I like to keep it simple.

 

Matter of fact once a Buddhist argument starts to consistently use words with over 4 syllables, I stay away from it.

 

edit> hmnnn, perhaps I should have stopped at good mind, is a quiet mind.

Edited August 2, 2014 by thelerner

[Simple_Jack]

Off to look up phenomenal reality...

Kant's definition..

Plato's noumenon ideal...

phenomenal vs noumenal..

pictures of Morpheous with red and green pills...

Zen interpretations.. interesting.

 

What I was aiming at was a good mind, is a quiet mind. When not needed a man should keep 'thought' tucked away in his tool box. Have faith in our empty unplanned, unthinking mind, unless there's a problem that requires it. Course if we find our unthinking mind is untrustworthy and stupid then screw thoughtless spontaneity.

 

That was the aim, from the little study I did, it seems once you get thinking it colors the world into phenomenal reality. Versus noumenal which just views and accepts the world as it is, so keeping things noumenal..actually Actually phenomenal and noumenal are too philosophical for my tastes. I like to keep it simple.

 

Matter of fact once a Buddhist argument starts to consistently use words with over 4 syllables, I stay away from it.

 

Periodically things like this need to be reposted:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17068-the-chan-bums/?p=531262

 

There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuffed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the flow of thought they don't let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. This is the method of heretics. A patriarch said, 'If you stop the mind to look at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samadhi -- all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.

 

~ Chan Master Linji

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17068-the-chan-bums/?p=531286

 

The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch [Dunhuang cave edition] trans. by Philip Yampolsky:

 

"No-thought means not to be defiled by external objects. It is to free thought from external objects and not to arouse thoughts about dharmas. But do not stop thinking about things, nor eliminate all thoughts. [if you do so] as soon as a single thought stops you will be reborn in other realms. Take heed of this! Do not cease objective things nor subjective mind."

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31033-resting-the-mind-in-its-natural-state/?p=481390

 

Dudjom Rinpoche points out the difference between the two:

 

"When the mind starts to rest, a slight diminishment of movement and thoughts constitutes a false semblance of stillness. When deep certainty arises that stillness is unborn and movement unceasing, and that stillness and movement are an equal taste, you have begun to meditate correctly."

 

Here's Mipham Rinpoche discussing the difference between śamatha and rigpa... essentially warning not to mistake calm abiding śamatha for the natural state:

 

"When you rest your attention in naturalness without thinking anything whatsoever and maintain constant mindfulness in that state, you may experience a vacant and blank state of mind which is neutral and indifferent. If no vipaśyanā of decisive knowing is present, this is exactly what the masters call 'ignorance'. It is also called 'undecided' from the point of being unable to express any means of identification, such as 'It is like this!' or 'This is it!' Being unable to say what you are remaining in or thinking of, this state is labelled 'ordinary indifference'. But actually, it is just an ordinary and nonspecific abiding in the state of the all-basis [skt. ālaya, tib. kun gzhi].

 

Although nonconceptual wakefulness has to be developed through this method of resting meditation, to lack the wisdom that sees your own nature is not the main part of meditation practice. This is what the 'Aspiration of Samantabhadra' says:

 

'The vacant state of not thinking anything

Is itself the cause of ignorance and confusion.' ...."

[forestofclarity]

This is where having a teacher can be useful. For example, if we cannot see beyond thoughts or judgments, a teacher can help create the conditions for us to do so.

 

 

So you don't see how what you describe is nothing more than thoughts and judgements?

[Simple_Jack]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17068-the-chan-bums/?p=555187

 

From Nan Huaijin's "To Realize Enlightenment" trans. by Thomas Cleary:

 

(pg. 217)

 

....These realms of delusion are even simpler to understand if we express them in a saying of the Zen School:"Giving rise to mind and setting thoughts in motion is the deva delusive demon. Not giving rise to mind or setting thoughts in motion is the delusive demon of the skandhas. Giving rise [to mind] and yet not giving rise [to mind] is the delusive demon of affliction." If you cannot act the master, any thought whatsoever is a deva delusive demon. If your mind is sunk in oblivion all day long, this is the delusive demon of the skandhas.

[GrandmasterP]

Sectarian bickering is what sectarianism is all about.

No point being in a sect at all unless you can define what you are against those other sects who have 'got it all wrong'.

Take that away and most people are similar to everyone else.

 

( Except western 'Tibetan' Buddhists of course, they really ARE twonks).

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Tibetan_Ice]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/17068-the-chan-bums/?p=555187

 

From Nan Huaijin's "To Realize Enlightenment" trans. by Thomas Cleary:

 

(pg. 217)

 

....These realms of delusion are even simpler to understand if we express them in a saying of the Zen School:"Giving rise to mind and setting thoughts in motion is the deva delusive demon. Not giving rise to mind or setting thoughts in motion is the delusive demon of the skandhas. Giving rise [to mind] and yet not giving rise [to mind] is the delusive demon of affliction." If you cannot act the master, any thought whatsoever is a deva delusive demon. If your mind is sunk in oblivion all day long, this is the delusive demon of the skandhas.

Why do you quote sources from unenlightened sources?

 

From that same thread..

 

7. You want to become a buddha after learning from me? I'm 90 already, and I still haven't seen a real Buddha or immortal yet. Stop being superstitious. All the books I wrote are only book knowledge and intellectual. Don't get tricked by those books. Lwen Yu Summary is my main effort. There are many places to learn Zen. Go over there to meditate. I've never promoted Buddhism. When I did have Zen classes, those were just organized by colleges, and the people were screened vigorously. We just did some research together. Afterwards, everyone still had to go back to live normal lives, to rub against the difficulties of life to strengthen their heart, and to improve their habits. Everyone must walk their own paths.

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Simple_Jack]

Because, there's a lot of great Zen teachings in his books, which haven't been translated into English. That quote for instance is influenced by the Yogacarabhumishastra. It's pretty self-explanatory, so Nan Huaijins commentary doesn't interpolate any meaning, that can't already be discerned by someone familiar with the subject matter.

[Simple_Jack]

Reading that book for just its translations of passages from the Yogacarabhumishastra is alone worth it.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Have you ever read this?

 

www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Dzogchen:_Thodgal_(Leap-Over)_Instructions_by_Dudjom_Lingpa

Edited August 2, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

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Edited August 3, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...Although nonconceptual wakefulness has to be developed through this method of resting meditation...

 

The capacity for it still has to be developed, then. No point knocking the car that gets you to the ferry because it can't take you across the water itself. The car still has a vital place in the overall journey.

[GrandmasterP]

.

 

Best post ever from asun....