The most direct training practice in Dzogchen

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Incubated Rudra.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Cheshire Cat]

1) A more "concrete" approach which would include concentrating on specific locations in the body as the eyes, the center of the head and the center of the heart.

 

Tried it.

It doesn't work.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[idiot_stimpy]

Zoom thanks for sharing

[Cheshire Cat]

Try harder!

It's all a matter of intensity & duration.

Or try the more abstract approach.

 

I said that it didn't work because it produced ill-effects and energy losses.

[Cheshire Cat]

you can get messed up doing that too much.

 

That's a fact! :-)

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[MooNiNite]

whatever floats your boat, as they say

[GrandmasterP]

Tried it.

It doesn't work.

 

Try harder.

 

[doc benway]

The most direct training practice in Dzogchen (really the only training practice in Dzogchen) is much simpler than what you are creating, ZOOM.

One needs to do absolutely nothing.

In fact, that is the definition of Dzogchen.

If you read any of the pith instructions of realized masters who "attained the rainbow body" they all say the same thing: leave it as it is.

This is why meditation in Dzogchen is called non-meditation.

Rest in the nature of mind.

That's it.

Start now and continue beyond death.

 

What you are creating is unrelated to Dzogchen, it is the workings of thought and seems to be an amalgamation of Daoist and Buddhist concepts, thrown together with a lot of misinterpretation - that is not Dzogchen.

Our lives are very short and the path to the "rainbow body" is very long - you don't have much time to waste playing games.

I suspect you're quite young and don't feel the urgency yet.

It will sneak up on you.

If you are serious about Dzogchen, you need someone to teach you properly.

 

Or play games for a few years or decades first - your choice.

I don't mean to be judgmental or critical - my intention is supportive but it wouldn't be right to support you going in the wrong direction.

On the other hand, often we can do nothing other than watch someone we care about go in the wrong direction until they figure out for themselves what they are doing...

I've had to do that with my kids periodically - it's painful but a wonderful lesson in patience and compassion.

 

Good luck, my friend.

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

I "like"d your post because it sounds like a honest well intended advice for a fellow practitioner and I certainly respect that!

You are right to that effect that Thodgal, the usual official main practice in Dzogchen which will lead to rainbow body is a rather "passive" exercise in which you simply actively arrange for the right circumstances to let the Kati channel relax and let the Clear Light of your heart shine with more intensity through it to let the four visions happen spontaneously.

Thodgal means "Resting in the Natural State" for longer periods of time, this is true.

But you understand Dzogchen and the Natural State WRONG (or got it taught wrong) if you have the opinion that you can simply enter the Natural State and "rest in it beyond death" and that Dzogchen has nothing to do with deep meditation.

You can't be in the Natural State all the time as you imply because this would mean that you can live your daily life while staying in the Natural State!

If you believe to be in the Natural State and are able to manage your daily life at the same time then you are very mistaken: It is impossible besides you are a Buddha! Most likely you are practicing some kind of buddhist awareness meditation but you are not at all in the Natural State. Therefore you obviously don't understand what the Natural State is. Thodgal means staying in the Natural State for longer periods of time, it is deep meditation and it is impossible to live your daily life while being in it. Why do you think the accomplished Dzogchen practitioners are training while sitting down in specific postures without any movement while practicing Thodgal and go on long retreats? You should really think about that!

If you don't agree with me that the exercise I explained in this thread will most likely lead to the same result as Thodgal,

then you possibly lack the understanding of the energetic theory behind Dzogchen concerning Kati channel and its dynamics. Possibly you were never introduced to this.

 

Precisely! When I was on retreat, and practicing a lot of sky gazing, I was only able to achieve the natural state when I was completely relaxed. That kind of relaxation occurs in exceptional circumstances. Most of the practitioners that practice togal are in caves that are isolated and a small group lends support.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Precisely! When I was on retreat, and practicing a lot of sky gazing, I was only able to achieve the natural state when I was completely relaxed. That kind of relaxation occurs in exceptional circumstances. Most of the practitioners that practice togal are in caves that are isolated and a small group lends support.

Ralis, can you describe the natural state?

[ralis]

Ralis, can you describe the natural state?

 

Give me some time to articulate a response and I will answer.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I "like"d your post because it sounds like a honest well intended advice for a fellow practitioner and I certainly respect that!

You are right to that effect that Thodgal, the usual official main practice in Dzogchen which will lead to rainbow body is a rather "passive" exercise in which you simply actively arrange for the right circumstances to let the Kati channel relax and let the Clear Light of your heart shine with more intensity through it to let the four visions happen spontaneously.

Thodgal means "Resting in the Natural State" for longer periods of time, this is true.

But you understand Dzogchen and the Natural State WRONG (or got it taught wrong) if you have the opinion that you can simply enter the Natural State and "rest in it beyond death" and that Dzogchen has nothing to do with deep meditation.

You can't be in the Natural State all the time as you imply because this would mean that you can live your daily life while staying in the Natural State!

If you believe to be in the Natural State and are able to manage your daily life at the same time then you are very mistaken: It is impossible besides you are a Buddha! Most likely you are practicing some kind of buddhist awareness meditation but you are not at all in the Natural State. Therefore you obviously don't understand what the Natural State is. Thodgal means staying in the Natural State for longer periods of time, it is deep meditation and it is impossible to live your daily life while being in it. Why do you think the accomplished Dzogchen practitioners are training while sitting down in specific postures without any movement while practicing Thodgal and go on long retreats? You should really think about that!

If you don't agree with me that the exercise I explained in this thread will most likely lead to the same result as Thodgal,

then you possibly lack the understanding of the energetic theory behind Dzogchen concerning Kati channel and its dynamics. Possibly you were never introduced to this.

Your basic assumption that you cannot do anything while in the natural state is wrong. In Bon, according to T Namdak, first you realize the natural state when sitting. Then you progress to striving to maintain the natural state while standing, then walking. As you gain the ability to maintain the natural state, you progress to simple chores. Finally, you learn how to maintain the natural state while doing crazy things, like jumping about, dancing around, acting like a lunatic. The assumption being that once one can maintain the natural state 24 hours a day ( even during dreams) one is said to be enlightened.

 

Further, when Ch NN Norbu was asked if he ever meditated, he replied with a question: "when am I never in the natural state?" (Or something like that)

 

Further, the purpose of thogal is to learn the source of the five lights and learn how to dissolve appearances back to the source.

 

I can see you have much to learn.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Zoom, reply to your Chogyam Trungpa quote:

 

From Dudjom Rinpoche's Counsels from My Heart:

 

"So dont go around claiming to be some great Dzogchen meditator when in fact you are nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust!"

[ralis]

Your basic assumption that you cannot do anything while in the natural state is wrong. In Bon, according to T Namdak, first you realize the natural state when sitting. Then you progress to striving to maintain the natural state while standing, then walking. As you gain the ability to maintain the natural state, you progress to simple chores. Finally, you learn how to maintain the natural state while doing crazy things, like jumping about, dancing around, acting like a lunatic. The assumption being that once one can maintain the natural state 24 hours a day ( even during dreams) one is said to be enlightened.

 

Further, when Ch NN Norbu was asked if he ever meditated, he replied with a question: "when am I never in the natural state?" (Or something like that)

 

Further, the purpose of thogal is to learn the source of the five lights and learn how to dissolve appearances back to the source.

 

I can see you have much to learn.

 

The problem is that the bliss is so potent, there is little desire to do much, if anything. That was my experience with Norbu when I caught his glance during the 'Song of The Vajra' and also during sky gazing. It seems to me that the energy of existence begins to move as opposed to the so called normal state one finds oneself. Some of you may challenge that, but I don't give a damn if you do.

Edited August 3, 2014 by ralis

[Wells]

.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM