The most direct training practice in Dzogchen

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

Your guru seems rather like a mere scholar to me instead of being an accomplished practitioner

 

Yes, Yongdzin Lopön Tenzin Namdak is a mere scholar, while Jax is "brilliant and speak(s) of deep insight into the subject of Dzogchen". Keep digging yourself that hole buddy.

[ralis]

You have much to learn in critical logical thinking.

Your guru seems rather like a mere scholar to me instead of being an accomplished practitioner

in comparison to the hardcore Dzogchen practitioners who sit (or lay) down all day long training intensely in Thodgal!

These guys are the ones who usually achieve rainbow body, not the scholars.

We will see if your guru accomplishes rainbow body with his approach.

If he does, I will openly admit that I was wrong.

Otherwise, I was right.

 

A small inner circle of Norbu's have been hanging around him for decades and none of them have attained much as far as I have been told. I think taking what he has taught and leaving society to practice is appropriate. There was a group of Gangten Tulku's students that entered permanent retreat in the mountains of Crestone Colorado for the sole purpose of achieving the 'rainbow body' but nothing has been reported of substance. If some one from this group accomplished this, that news would rapidly spread.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Tibetan_Ice]

What would be the most direct training approach in Dzogchen?

 

In Dzogchen theory, your true essence or Buddha Nature is pure consciousness or awareness.

This essence of your true being is seperated into two parts:

The smaller part of the two, the Son Clear Light (Sambhogakaya, the Clear Light of the Path),

which is located in the center of your head is the part of you which consciously experiences your life (sensory & mental processes).

The Son Clear Light is like a little spark of the totality of Clear Light.

By far the larger part of the two, the Mother Clear Light (Dharmakaya, the Clear Light of the Base),

which is located in the center of your heart, is your "Inner God" and the source of the Son Clear Light.

Both Clear Lights are located inside the Central Channel which runs through the center of your torso.

There is a constant flow of energy or consciousness (Clear Light) through the Kati channel from the Mother Clear Light to the Son Clear Light and then out of your eyes, which connects the Mother & the Son Clear Light, most likely maintains the existence of the Son Clear Light and becomes the conscious energy of the Son Clear Light with which it experiences the outer world.

But besides this, the Mother Clear Light seems to be completely passive during life.

The Son Clear Light is not aware of the Mother Clear Light and can't use its potential.

At death, the Son Clear Light returns and fuses back with the Mother Clear Light.

The approaching of the Son Clear Light towards the Mother Clear Light is the explanation behind the "Tunnel of Light" experience during near death experiences.

The goal in Dzogchen is the conscious fusion of Son & Mother Clear Light during life

and increasing the flow of energy from the Mother Clear Light into your whole being to flood it with Clear Light,

which results into dissolving your whole being including your material body into Rainbow Body (Nirmanakaya).

 

=> The most direct training method in Dzogchen would be to reverse the energy flow from flowing outwards to flow inwards or backwards, first from the eyes to the Son Clear Light and after this is achieved and perhaps a large amount of Clear Light Energy has been stored in the Son Clear Light,

initiating a backflow from the Son Clear Light to the Mother Clear Light which leads to a conscious reconnection and finally a conscious fusion of the two.

 

Dharmakaya is like the sun, sambhogakaya is like the rays,

and nirmanakaya is like the rays hitting the objects on the earth.

Nirmanakaya is the physical situation,

and sambhogakaya and dharmakaya are the level of mind.

~Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche~

1). You don't reverse the flow of the son, you dissolve it. You dissolve it by letting go and letting be, or shamatha practice which the dissolves the substrate consciousness into the substrate, and then the substrate (alaya) dissolves. And, if the substrate doesn't dissolve, you have to break on through. Or, you can cause the mother to shine so brightly that it dissolves everything and penetrates all phenomenon. But you have to learn to have selfless love, no ego or identity. True boddhicitta on the highest level.

2) The three kayas are for those beings with control of the five lights, or realization of the source. To use them in the way you is erroneous.

3) the mother clear light is not white, nor is it contained in the heart. The mother clear light contains all manifestations and has no location although it is accessible through the doorway of the heart.

4) storing energy in the son only fortifies the son. The son, identity, must dissolve and then realizes that there was no son in the first place, only mother.

5) the method is to calm the winds, the vayus, until they dissolve into the central channel, or arouse the flow from Primordial Wisdom until it "purifies" the winds.

 

Perhaps you could read this part again... From Dudjom Lingpa instructions:

 

"This is the way the experiential visions progress. Initially, vital energy fills you inside from your heart up to your throat, or various sorts of illnesses or disagreeable pains may occur. Randomly moving throughout the exterior and interior of your body, staying in no one place for long, these disturbances arise due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the ascending wind. After awhile, they increase and your throat may become sore and blocked so that food is obstructed and coughed out. You may lose your appetite, have trouble breathing, and lose your voice. Then they increase yet further, and disturbances arise due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the life-sustaining wind. Then you may experience mood swings from joy to sorrow and from desire to hatred. Due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the descending wind, when the disturbances increase, urine and excrement are blocked and cannot be excreted, and when the disturbances subside, they are expelled constantly. Due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the pervasive wind, when those disturbances increase, the body becomes swollen, and when they decrease, all the flesh of your body withers as if it were becoming a corpse. Due to the potency of the vital energy of primordial wisdom striking the fire accompanying wind, when the disturbances increase, sweat emerges from the body and great heat arises; and when they subside, you get goose bumps, your complexion deteriorates, and you shiver with cold"

Edited August 3, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

He writes this claim in one of his books or speeches for you western outdoor students whose money flows into the maintenance of his monastery, right?

Keep in mind what I taught you about critical logical thinking, buddy.

 

I only cited claims you made... and you couldn't sound more ignorant right now.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[asunthatneversets]

I stated a general fact about the teachings made for you by your lamas.

 

No, you stated two opinions which are highly inaccurate and demonstrate your general incompetence. In fact this entire thread is a demonstration of your incompetence, everything you've written is embellished fabrication, and anyone with any sense about them will disregard all of it in its entirety.

 

Inaccurate opinion #1: Your guru [Lopon Tenzin Namdak] seems rather like a scholar to me instead of being an accomplished practitioner.

 

Inaccurate opinion #2: His [Jax's] statements are very clear and with one word: brilliant and speak of deep insight into the subject of Dzogchen.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

You have much to learn in critical logical thinking.

Your guru seems rather like a scholar to me instead of being an accomplished practitioner

in comparison to the hardcore Dzogchen practitioners who sit (or lay) down all day long training intensely in Thodgal!

These guys are the ones who usually achieve rainbow body, not the scholars.

We will see if your guru accomplishes rainbow body with his approach of living his everyday & family life and being a scholar and a manager of a big organisation "while being in the Natural State".

If he does, I will openly admit that I was wrong.

Otherwise, I must conclude that I was right.

Please quit calling T Namdak or C NN Norbu "my gurus" They are not my gurus.

 

Further, it is not a competition of whose guru can win the race. It all about capacity of the practitioner and the realizations that he/she can achieve. The first obstacle you have to overcome with Dzogchen is the very bad English translations of the Tibetan texts. The second obstacle is the inability to experience samadhi. The third obstacle is not opening the third eye, divine eye, or wisdom eye. If you can't do that then you are a beginner and should start at the beginning.

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[ralis]

Please quit calling T Namdak or C NN Norbu "my gurus" They are not my gurus.

 

Further, it is not a competition of whose guru can win the race. It all about capacity of the practitioner and the realizations that he/she can achieve. The first obstacle you have to overcome with Dzogchen is the very bad English translations of the Tibetan texts. The second obstacle is the inability to experience samadhi. The third obstacle is not opening the third eye, divine eye, or wisdom eye. If you can't do that then you are a beginner and should start at the beginning.

I would extend your statement in regards to capacity which is not of the individual, but of non objectified mind.

[GrandmasterP]

+1

Every single one of those defined 'obstacles' ... were all made up in some dude's mind.

Delusions fostering delusions.

What we call 'jug and mug instruction' -

- BS poured out of the teacher 'jug' direct into the mind of the student 'mug'.

Common-sense bypassed along the way.

 

Edited August 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ralis]

+1

Every single one of those defined 'obstacles' ... were all made up in some dude's mind.

Delusions fostering delusions.

What we call 'jug and mug instruction' -

- BS poured out of the teacher 'jug' direct into the mind of the student 'mug'.

Common-sense bypassed along the way.

 

 

I like the way you characterized that. The system purveyors must use propaganda to keep the students entranced and create levels of attainment that can never be achieved in untold eons. Throw in karma/sin and a few guilt trips don't hurt either.

Edited August 3, 2014 by ralis

[Simple_Jack]

I like the way you characterized that. The system purveyors must use propaganda to keep the students entranced and create levels of attainment that can never be achieved in untold eons.

 

Vajrayana claims:

 

If one who possesses the three vows

understands the profound points of the two stages,

it is said that in this life, the bardo

or within sixteen lifetimes,

that one will accomplish perfect buddhahood.

~ Sakya Pandita

Edited August 3, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Anderson]

Maybe you are simply not ready yet to face yourself?

I'm training with all three approaches I described and afterwards I always feel incredibly self-aware, self-centered, calm & focused!

 

Self-centered yes, definitely .

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[doc benway]

I "like"d your post because it sounds like a honest well intended advice for a fellow practitioner and I certainly respect that!

Thanks - it was and I appreciate that.

 

You are right to that effect that Thodgal, the usual official main practice in Dzogchen which will lead to rainbow body is a rather "passive" exercise in which you simply actively arrange for the right circumstances to let the Kati channel relax and let the Clear Light of your heart shine with more intensity through it to let the four visions happen spontaneously.

Thodgal means "Resting in the Natural State" for longer periods of time, this is true.

But you understand Dzogchen and the Natural State WRONG (or got it taught wrong) if you have the opinion that you can simply enter the Natural State and "rest in it beyond death" and that Dzogchen has nothing to do with deep meditation.

You can't be in the Natural State all the time as you imply because this would mean that you can live your daily life while staying in the Natural State!

If you believe to be in the Natural State and are able to manage your daily life at the same time then you are very mistaken: It is impossible besides you are a Buddha! Most likely you are practicing some kind of buddhist awareness meditation but you are not at all in the Natural State. Therefore you obviously don't understand what the Natural State is. Thodgal means staying in the Natural State for longer periods of time, it is deep meditation and it is impossible to live your daily life while being in it. Why do you think the accomplished Dzogchen practitioners are training while sitting down in specific postures without any movement while practicing Thodgal and go on long retreats? You should really think about that!

If you don't agree with me that the exercise I explained in this thread will most likely lead to the same result as Thodgal,

then you possibly lack the understanding of the energetic theory behind Dzogchen concerning Kati channel and its dynamics. Possibly you were never introduced to this.

Not too much to say here other than you really are misunderstanding the teachings.

The natural state is much closer than you think.

 

The whole point of Dzogchen practice is to -

1. realize the natural state - direct transmission is important to make sure you get it right, otherwise you are just wasting your time

2. stabilize the ability to rest in the natural state - first during inactivity then, once that is stable, during activity

3. integrate the natural state into every waking, sleeping, and dreaming moment

 

A qualified teacher could help you.

You are way off course here as far as Dzogchen practice goes.

If you are dedicated and sincere, I'm sure you will have some pleasant experiences with your meditation, but it's not Dzogchen.

 

What you are doing would be similar to creating your own field of mathematics based on mixed and faulty axioms and expect it to yield results... If you start with 2+2=7, division is associative, and the sin45=green, you are unlikely to solve differential equations. But hey, who am I to judge - maybe you'll disappear into a flash of light in a few months...

More likely, you'll be on to another system thinking that Dzogchen doesn't work.

 

The sad thing is that now that you seem to have given up Mo Pai for Dzogchen, you actually are in contact with a system that has living masters who are willing to teach you the real thing. And they are even offering legitimate and effective teachings for free, in English, in the luxury of your own home! And yet you've chosen to pick and chose, mix and match, and make stuff up on your own...

 

Why?

[C T]

Give me some time to articulate a response and I will answer.

LLOL

[Anderson]

Exactly! Not ego-centered.

 

 

No, that's not what self-centered means

[doc benway]

+1

Every single one of those defined 'obstacles' ... were all made up in some dude's mind.

Delusions fostering delusions.

What we call 'jug and mug instruction' -

- BS poured out of the teacher 'jug' direct into the mind of the student 'mug'.

Common-sense bypassed along the way.

 

 

Which made up obstacles are you referring to?

[Wells]

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Edited October 28, 2014 by ZOOM

[GrandmasterP]

Which made up obstacles are you referring to?

 

From TI's post....

Please quit calling T Namdak or C NN Norbu "my gurus" They are not my gurus.

 

Further, it is not a competition of whose guru can win the race. It all about capacity of the practitioner and the realizations that he/she can achieve. The first obstacle you have to overcome with Dzogchen is the very bad English translations of the Tibetan texts. The second obstacle is the inability to experience samadhi. The third obstacle is not opening the third eye, divine eye, or wisdom eye. If you can't do that then you are a beginner and should start at the beginning.

 

HTH

[Anderson]

???

You seem to interpret being self-centered as something negative.

 

That is right.

I cant help you much with dzogchen but i know with some degree of certainty that you are going in the wrong direction.