On being a little Strange

[nestentrie]

No, I'm not mocking you. Please don't see it that way, it was more of a way to mock myself! I'm strange too, remember?

 

We're all strange here! Hoorayyyyyyy!

 

Ok then. I can admit I'm wrong (or that I over reacted). I'll be more wary of rejecting what you say next time. I'm not generally so sensitive, at least, so senstive as to react so defensively to a complete stranger. It makes me look like the fool really, given what I had written in my post that you were addressing.

 

As to that original post I was trying to evoke a sense of Chapter 20 and 48 (and maybe a few others) of the Tao Te Ching.

 

20

When we renounce learning we have no troubles.

The (ready) 'yes,' and (flattering) 'yea;'--

Small is the difference they display.

But mark their issues, good and ill;--

What space the gulf between shall fill?

 

[...]

 

48

He who devotes himself to learning (seeks) from day to day to

increase (his knowledge); he who devotes himself to the Tao (seeks)

from day to day to diminish (his doing).

 

He diminishes it and again diminishes it, till he arrives at doing

nothing (on purpose). Having arrived at this point of non-action,

there is nothing which he does not do.

 

He who gets as his own all under heaven does so by giving himself

no trouble (with that end). If one take trouble (with that end), he

is not equal to getting as his own all under heaven.

 

...with the idea being that the 'learning' these chapters refer to are a kind of 'facts and figures' type body of knowledge. Facts that stand without any implication. Facts that call no intuition. Meaningless learning basically. I wasn't really drawing an analogy with what is mainstream.

 

To draw the analogy with what is mainstream I suppose can cover meaningless as there are certainly many unconscientious pursuits in the mainstream. There's also peer pressure in the mainstream.

 

But I think of things like Nazism (uh oh: death of the thread) with this kind of thing (as to one respect of the issue). Genocide and the invasion of Poland et al weren't really mainstream goals until they were. Minor groups conspired to whip up panic and hatred and were sure to be with whip in hand panicing and hating on each other trying to convince themselves first that it was the right thing to do before anything happened. Mainstream just came later. And while this kind of thing is common for the groundwork of what later comes mainstream the basic fact is that not everything will become mainstream: there's a million hitlers that never got their way.

 

This is of course taking the view that what is mainstream is cultural and not societal. If societal then I suppose you can throw what I've said out the window. It's here anyway that angle on what I'm talking about stops.

 

My basic point with the 'meangingless learning' is that we seek to be admired for some of this stuff and when we get into groups where we're all trying to be admired a disharmony develops.

 

I wouldn't mind being called strange for dropping the pretense that I should be admired for what I know (or believe).

[Trunk]

Are you running as candidate?

Nooooooooo!!! (runs away)

I have a natural aversion to the spot-light. ... and I can definitely relate to the title of this thread. One of the biggest losses for me on my spiritual path (I was an atheist up until I was 19) was the loss of feeling like just one of the guys, sameness with others. That alienation crescendohd over a number of years. TTBs is a way of connecting (as well as exploring, learning). I was talking to Sean while working on the Local Meetups section ... that part of the reason TTBs existed was that many of us have a lack of internal arts people in our local lives, to talk with, practice with. I think that partly I've had the attitude, "I don't need anyone, I can go it alone" for long stretches in my internal arts life ... but really my local internal arts social fabric is too thin, thread-bare. It's not healthy, not for any of us. (And I know that there's the other side of the coin that mystics do tend to be loners.)

 

Part of the barrier is understanding: we're just trying to understand our own path, so how can we possibly relate to others? ... especially those not on a similar path? ... and part of the barrier is language: a common, non-sectarian, relatable way to talk to others ... that relates, doesn't alienate and that also is authentically well founded. My proposed outline thread addresses language.

 

I liked the graphic, did you make that yourself?

Yup. Thanks.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Trunk

[joeblast]

too many people take speaking plainly for mockery or ridicule, when it is only simple honest observation. god forbid

[GrandmasterP]

Well there are ways and means of saying something.

Trouble with posting is we can only read the words and never the face.

That can compound unintended offence.

Edited August 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[idiot_stimpy]

I'm strange, but I'm also an idiot.

[ThisLife]

"part of the reason TTBs existed was that many of us have a lack of internal arts people in our local lives, to talk with, practice with. I think that partly I've had the attitude, "I don't need anyone, I can go it alone" for long stretches in my internal arts life ... but really my local internal arts social fabric is too thin, thread-bare. It's not healthy, not for any of us. (And I know that there's the other side of the coin that mystics do tend to be loners.)".

 

*

 

*

 

I think that, (if we're genuinely trying to uncover causes for our dissatisfaction with our existence,.... or alternately-put, unhappiness with the apparent mis-match between our ideas about how our existence "should" be and how it actually seems to be).,,,, then I think it's beneficial to also recognise that many of the causes of unhappiness in today's society are precisely the ever-increasing amount of time spent communicating with others using mechanical / technological devices like this.

 

As pleasant as it is to find others of a like-mind here, conversation is usually in two or three short sentences, then it's off to the next topic or thread. This is a quite radically different experience to going out for a hike in nature with the company of a friend. I believe the more we come to use internet sites as a substitute for reality, the more we seriously risk our spiritual life going down the same road as what happened during the explosive technological development of television over the last 50 years. It started off with one channel, black and white, with about a 20 inch screen. Unbelievably basic by today's standards. But the widely unrecognised benefit was that everybody in your community watched the same thing, ( of necessity). So the next day, at school or work there was a common bond of shared experience that you could have a conversation with others about.

 

Now, with wide screen home cinema, Blu Ray, full surround sound, DVDs, and a gazillion channels to choose from, the traditional places for human interaction like pubs, or playing outdoors in the evening for kids,.... are all empty. Largely, people are sat, on their own, surfing the endless TV channels, surfing the web. Sitting inside some room in their house trying to gain the subtle and almost intangible "soul food" that comes from connecting with another living being,..... BUT, sadly via 'virtual reality' on some medium like this. {I use the word "sadly", because 'virtual reality' is unfortunately exactly what the first word says. It's NOT REAL. It cannot deliver the goods any more than gazing longingly at a beautiful photograph of a well-balanced meal, will keep our bodies fit and healthy.}

 

Unfortunately, what we get via technology compared to the 'real experience', is very like the difference between real ice cream, (for anyone who has ever had the good fortune to taste that rare substance), and what comes flowing effortlessly out of the soft ice cream machine at McDonald's.

 

I think your diagnosis is accurate, "It's not healthy for us."

 

The prescription,.... "We need to get out more." NOT that we need to spend more time attempting self-analysis on internet sites like this, with invisible strangers we'll never meet.

Edited August 13, 2014 by ThisLife

[GrandmasterP]

Paragraphs mate.

Try 'Edit' then re-post.

If you wrote it in paragraphs it'll come up as such.

If not have a go at using paras because few bother to read block text.

Edited August 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

That's better.

Ta.

[ThisLife]

Paragraphs mate.

Try 'Edit' then re-post.

If you wrote it in paragraphs it'll come up as such.

If not have a go at using paras because few bother to read block text.

I'm currently on holiday and obliged to use an iPad for all my internet communication. I certainly appreciate that it is one clever little technological gizmo,..... But it is not even in the same ballpark as a PC or laptop when it comes to versatility as a tool.

 

It takes a long time and a lot of head-scratching for me to figure out how to make a post like I made above, suitable for presentation, using only a crude iPad.

 

This is just another example of what we lose when we opt for speed, convenience, and brevity in our human communication. First it was the whole process of pen, pad of writing paper, envelope and stamp. Then emails. Now Tweeting and Twittering. There's a total of 47 characters allowable for communication, I believe.

 

Examples abound for anyone interested enough to look. We're floating down the river of existence through a very strange time in human evolution right now. I think it's interesting to keep my eyes open and as fresh as I can keep them, to what is happening all around me.

Edited August 6, 2014 by ThisLife

[Anoesjka]

Well there are ways and means of saying something.

Trouble with posting is we can only read the words and never the face.

That can compound unintended offence.

 

Luckily we can always make up after such things happen. I will never intentionally hurt someone, though I may have hurt many people in my life (probably a lot) unwittingly.

[Nikolai1]

I think once our spiritual life deepens and starts to bear early fruit we can get held back by a kind of guilt. We have a bad conscience about the wonderful things that are happening because we see that they aren't happening to those around us. It is really hard not to feel like we have 'moved on', yet we also have the idea that we should be totally unelitist, and able to move and mix with whoever comes our way.

 

This all stems from insufficient confidence in what we are becoming. Our desire to be egalitarian is actually the fear of standing out and setting a positive example. We think that being our wonderful selves would be a tacit condemnation of others' 'backwardness'

 

As our practice deepens we realise that our increasing love and respect for others enables to totally be ourselves AND love and respect others wherever they are and whatever they are doing.

 

Apparently the Buddha went through this immediately after his realisation. He felt uncomfortable that he was the lotus in bloom and all those around him are only just budding. Then he thought: 'the unopened bud is just as beautiful and perfect in its own way as the the opened flower.'

[manitou]

Another view:

 

I am a person of unlimited compassion and forgiveness. It is now in my nature to be so. I can be no other way, it conflicts with how my heart beats today, and the consciousness I am in.

 

The same is not true of my family - any of them. I love my younger brother, his wife, his kids - so very much. But we've come to a painful separation. They are unable to forgive something that my Joe did about 10 years ago - he stole some money from my mother's piano bench. The guilt drove him nuts and he came clean on it to the family. This is part of his alcohol recovery - he was a street wino for years and years. This incident was a crucial part of digging out the thief that still lurked within him. He has plead with the family to forgive him, he returned the money.

 

But my brother, the least introspective person I know, will not forgive. His mindset is that Nobody Can Ever Change. This last week, I went to California to be with my mother, who had emergency gall bladder surgery and almost died (I ran energy to her for hours, and she's doing much better - the surgeon is amazed at her recovery). My plan was to return us to California (sell the house here in Ohio).

 

Apparently I made a horrible mistake. I asked my brother and sister-in-law (and asked them to ask their kids too) to PLEASE stop sending Christmas cards addressed to only me, and omitting Joe as the addressee. This is a hurtful thing they all do every December, and it seems to me that doing this for 10 years is enough. Joe does get the message - it's not lost on him. I requested that they just stop sending greeting cards at all, unless we were both the addressee.

 

I am the strange one, to them. They are upright people in their own minds - and they want Joe out of our lives altogether. After all, how can I possibly forgive someone who stole money from our mother? (Even if he couldn't sleep for days afterwards and HE was the one that told us about it). So unfortunately we had a blow-out in California this last week - I got to my emotional end-zone and had to return to Ohio. My brother and his wife are no longer speaking to me, won't even put me on the list of people who are able to get information about Mom at the convalescent home.

 

My god, this 'strangeness' hurts. The only way I can possibly live with this is to transcend the fact that we appear to be separate from each other, but we're all really One. I MUST look at it as though we're just tentacles of an octopus that don't know they're connected down at the other end. But there we tentacles are, interacting with each other as though we're separate. If I didn't look at it this way, my old default position kids in and I just to want to take my own life. (Which I won't do - I just feel like doing it).

 

I am totally heartbroken, and as Joe and I live out in the wilds of Ohio I have few people to relate to, who understand things like unconditional love and forgiveness. I'm crying now at Tim Horton's as I write this - my broadband connection at home is down.

 

So sorry for whining to you all. I just so appreciate the fact that there are others who try and walk their talk - who care about things like doing the inner work and seeking the light which lives within us. And to love our brothers as ourselves, regardless of the dynamics we find ourselves in.

 

What lessons family contain for us. I guess the biggest lessons are from the ones closest to us. My challenge is to not let my heart become hard. And it will not.

 

Viva the Cracked Ones.

Edited August 9, 2014 by manitou

[Anoesjka]

 

What lessons family contain for us. I guess the biggest lessons are from the ones closest to us. My challenge is to not let my heart become hard. And it will not.

 

Viva the Cracked Ones.

 

Oh manitou, I feel your hurt. We all get out scars from the ones closest to us, alas it is like that. Maybe there are families which all get along just fine, but I think they are sparse.

 

I just spent 12 years trying to keep my own family together, it almost killed me. I prevented total war, it cost me a lot. But it also made me wiser and gave the other family members an opportunity to grow also, and I must say they did. It really amazed me how people could change (to the positive).

 

Growing is a hurtful process and brings you to the brink of what is bearable.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZRCIrTgQc

 

 

[GrandmasterP]

I'm currently on holiday and obliged to use an iPad for all my internet communication. I certainly appreciate that it is one clever little technological gizmo,..... But it is not even in the same ballpark as a PC or laptop when it comes to versatility as a tool.

It takes a long time and a lot of head-scratching for me to figure out how to make a post like I made above, suitable for presentation, using only a crude iPad.

This is just another example of what we lose when we opt for speed, convenience, and brevity in our human communication. First it was the whole process of pen, pad of writing paper, envelope and stamp. Then emails. Now Tweeting and Twittering. There's a total of 47 characters allowable for communication, I believe.

Examples abound for anyone interested enough to look. We're floating down the river of existence through a very strange time in human evolution right now. I think it's interesting to keep my eyes open and as fresh as I can keep them, to what is happening all around me.

 

I only ever use iPad cos that's all I have.

They are limited for sure.

[ThisLife]

I only ever use iPad cos that's all I have.

They are limited for sure.

Unfortunately, despite the moans I sometimes give voice to about the limitations of this device,..... a suppressed awareness lies just barely under the surface that the real limitations stem from my own nature,.... one that is naturally conservative and which does NOT readily embrace change.

 

And since 'change' is the very quintessence of existence, dissatisfaction will no doubt be my companion for exactly as long as I have this attitude.

 

Unfortunately, merely recognising a side of oneself which is 'less than helpful',...... does not mean we have any control over it. In fact, the direction of my own life's search for spiritual answers, has led me to question whether this "I" who is supposedly directing this diligent search,.... even exists at all.

 

What a joke on us all that would be, eh ?

Edited August 10, 2014 by ThisLife

[thelerner]

whoops double post.

Edited August 10, 2014 by thelerner

[thelerner]

Another view:

 

I am a person of unlimited compassion and forgiveness. It is now in my nature to be so. I can be no other way, it conflicts with how my heart beats today, and the consciousness I am in.

 

The same is not true of my family - any of them. I love my younger brother, his wife, his kids - so very much. But we've come to a painful separation. They are unable to forgive something that my Joe did about 10 years ago - he stole some money from my mother's piano bench. The guilt drove him nuts and he came clean on it to the family. This is part of his alcohol recovery - he was a street wino for years and years. This incident was a crucial part of digging out the thief that still lurked within him. He has plead with the family to forgive him, he returned the money.

 

But my brother, the least introspective person I know, will not forgive. His mindset is that Nobody Can Ever Change. This last week, I went to California to be with my mother, who had emergency gall bladder surgery and almost died (I ran energy to her for hours, and she's doing much better - the surgeon is amazed at her recovery). My plan was to return us to California (sell the house here in Ohio).

 

Apparently I made a horrible mistake. I asked my brother and sister-in-law (and asked them to ask their kids too) to PLEASE stop sending Christmas cards addressed to only me, and omitting Joe as the addressee. This is a hurtful thing they all do every December, and it seems to me that doing this for 10 years is enough. Joe does get the message - it's not lost on him. I requested that they just stop sending greeting cards at all, unless we were both the addressee.

 

I am the strange one, to them. They are upright people in their own minds - and they want Joe out of our lives altogether. After all, how can I possibly forgive someone who stole money from our mother? (Even if he couldn't sleep for days afterwards and HE was the one that told us about it). So unfortunately we had a blow-out in California this last week - I got to my emotional end-zone and had to return to Ohio. My brother and his wife are no longer speaking to me, won't even put me on the list of people who are able to get information about Mom at the convalescent home.

 

My god, this 'strangeness' hurts. The only way I can possibly live with this is to transcend the fact that we appear to be separate from each other, but we're all really One. I MUST look at it as though we're just tentacles of an octopus that don't know they're connected down at the other end. But there we tentacles are, interacting with each other as though we're separate. If I didn't look at it this way, my old default position kids in and I just to want to take my own life. (Which I won't do - I just feel like doing it).

 

I am totally heartbroken, and as Joe and I live out in the wilds of Ohio I have few people to relate to, who understand things like unconditional love and forgiveness. I'm crying now at Tim Horton's as I write this - my broadband connection at home is down.

 

So sorry for whining to you all. I just so appreciate the fact that there are others who try and walk their talk - who care about things like doing the inner work and seeking the light which lives within us. And to love our brothers as ourselves, regardless of the dynamics we find ourselves in.

 

What lessons family contain for us. I guess the biggest lessons are from the ones closest to us. My challenge is to not let my heart become hard. And it will not.

 

Viva the Cracked Ones.

Seems to me you made a mistake, a very human one. You shouldn't expect others to follow your own moral code of forgiveness and you can't give ultimatums to them when they don't.

 

The good thing about being spiritual is it makes swallowing ones pride easier. You may want to consider apologizing to them for making a demand they can't follow. Explain you did it out of love and respect for your partner, but it was wrong to tell them how they should feel and act. Let'em know you still want them in your life, if that's the way you truly feel.

 

To burn a bridge is human, to rebuild it is divine.

Yours

Michael

[liminal_luke]

Manitou,

 

I love the image of octopus tentacles. My feeling is that your holding that sense of oneness sends out healing for your whole family-- whether you ever communicate your view to them explicitly or not. Maybe they won't show it anytime soon, but when one tentacle so strongly radiates that sense of connection, the other tentacles can't help but pick up the beat.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Liminal

[manitou]

Thank you, Michael and Anoesjka - at least the suicidal thought has passed - it was a quick one, but I knew I had to get back to Ohio. The thing that hurts the most is that they see no difference between one who 'came to his own realization and turned himself in' - and being caught redhanded by someone else. I believe there's a huge difference, a difference that has everything to do with character building. Which Joe has in spades today, ten years later.

 

Luke - I can only hope that what you say is true about the awareness of the Oneness affecting the dynamic at a very subtle level. I too believe this to be true, and all I can do now is set my intent on it and let the whole thing play out. All I know is that I cannot harbor any sort of resentment about this, or it will affect me to great harm. Not only in a spiritual sense, but in a sense that a recovering alkie (myself) can take that first drink even after years and years of sobriety, if a horrible situation catches you unaware. I'd like to believe I'm beyond that, but care must still be taken, even after 32 years of sobriety.

 

I don't ever expect their forgiveness. I'd just like the rudeness to stop, the intent to sting him repeatedly year after year. I don't know if it was that great a mistake to ask for that or not. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.