Minor schools and inconsistent methods (from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji)

[goldisheavy]

This is from Legge's translation of Chapter 2 of Zhuangzi. I hope this will be of use to some of the more obstinate posters here.

 

 

And let me ask you some questions: 'If a man sleep in a damp place, he will have a pain in his loins, and half his body will be as if it were dead; but will it be so with an eel? If he be living in a tree, he will be frightened and all in a tremble; but will it be so with a monkey? And does any one of the three know his right place? Men eat animals that have been fed on grain and grass; deer feed on the thickset grass; centipedes enjoy small snakes; owls and crows delight in mice; but does any one of the four know the right taste? The dog-headed monkey finds its mate in the female gibbon; the elk and the axis deer cohabit; and the eel enjoys itself with other fishes. Mâo Zhiang and Li Ki were accounted by men to be most beautiful, but when fishes saw them, they dived deep in the water from them; when birds, they flew from them aloft; and when deer saw them, they separated and fled away. But did any of these four know which in the world is the right female attraction?

Edited August 5, 2014 by goldisheavy

[GrandmasterP]

success means different things in different paths. You teach qigong & well-being, so maybe it's better do not speculate about paths you haven't ever leant...

 

 

 

maybe it's true for you, in qigong there are 100500 schools and no one has any authority, because they all go in different directions.

 

In Neidan texts mean a lot. Different texts have a different value. If you don't understand texts, you will never understand the tradition. And obviously your attitude shows the respect you have to that tradition... If you wan't to argue with immortals, you can bring other texts written by perfected saints of the past, for sure it's not a problem for your grand level, right? You know "acres of them" you said.

 

Yes, you are right.

We've already agreed that your way is the best way bro.

[opendao]

There are many ways one can follow to a deeper understanding of oneself. And there is no avoiding the need to understand oneself. You can understand a doctrine or a set of methods as completely as you like, and so long as you still don't understand yourself, you're just wasting time. On the other hand, if you understand everything incorrectly, but through a series of errors you've managed to understand yourself, you've arrived home, where everyone wants to end up.

 

it's not true for Neidan. In Neidan nobody wants to end-up in the home you described. Such new-aged approach will lead to an illusion that you understand yourself, but you have no ways to realize if it's true or not, because for you everything enjoyable will be good and will look correct. Such people end up teaching others how to achieve "well-being", but such a goal is not the goal of Neidan, don't mislead people.

 

So Neidan has always put teachers and the authority of tradition to the centre, not somebody's ego full of illusions. Teachers have taught methods, teachers have explained the texts, students worked to transform them selves. If everything is in place then the understanding of oneself will come, but without correct methods and corrections from a knowledgeable teacher such understanding will never come.

 

This is why fighting over methods is such a pointless endeavor. There will never be a resolution because there is no single objectively correct method. Hell, you don't even need mystical insight to see this. Just look at history. The sectarian feuds have been ongoing since time immemorial...

 

Yes, just look at history. What results people have achieved in the past, what they were able to do, what books they wrote and so on. And look what we have now with the modern approach "all roads go the same direction". Maybe you like it, up to you. But I prefer the ancient Way. It's a challenge to see the difference, it's a challenge to stop thinking "I can do everything on my own". But people do it sometimes and get real success. And their experience is the same as described in ancient books. I think it's obviously clear why.

Edited August 5, 2014 by opendao

[opendao]

This is from Legge's translation of Chapter 2 of Zhuangzi. I hope this will be of use to some of the more obstinate posters here.

 

But did any of these four know which in the world is the right female attraction?

He clearly states that ordinary beings don't know. It means they know nothing right at all, for them everything is relative. But Zhuangzi is not ordinary, he is not in the same list as elks and gibbons, right? So students went to Zhuangzi to not being elks, but to be perfected (zhen)...

[Walker]

The translated passage in the original post is not just a random selection amongst the vast corpus of Daoist writings. It is a well-known text containing a discussion between Lu Dongbin, generally recognized as the originator of extant alchemy schools all over China, and his master. The same admonitions seen there resurface in later writings and in oral teachings.

 

Its contents are considered very important amongst people whose affinity for internal alchemy teachings is great enough for them to have started to realize that qigong, martial arts neigong, traditional Chinese medical ideas, and so forth are not the same thing as inner alchemy.

 

I do not know the original poster's reasons for posting. Whatever the reasons may be, the information is worthy of contemplation for all of us on this board. It reflects some of what you might hear in the rare chance that you get a chance to talk to an adept in China or even a person who's simply well-versed in neidan literature.

 

Also, Daoists have much respect for Zhuangzi's teachings, but the teachings are not invoked a la "whatever you do is right for you and nobody else can tell you what would work or doesn't," when it comes to practice instructions transmitted master to disciple.

 

Edit: added "medical ideas"

Edited August 6, 2014 by Walker

[goldisheavy]

it's not true for Neidan. In Neidan nobody wants to end-up in the home you described. Such new-aged approach will lead to an illusion that you understand yourself, but you have no ways to realize if it's true or not, because for you everything enjoyable will be good and will look correct. Such people end up teaching others how to achieve "well-being", but such a goal is not the goal of Neidan, don't mislead people.

 

Sages throughout time pointed the student back to oneself. Zhuangzi is no different.

 

You are free to ignore this wisdom and go seek for truth from external sources. All you will find is illusion.

 

So Neidan has always put teachers and the authority of tradition to the centre

 

I guess the three classics do not promote Neidan then.

 

Yes, just look at history. What results people have achieved in the past, what they were able to do, what books they wrote and so on.

 

There were many amazing people from all walks of life, all traditions, all kinds of backgrounds. If you think Neidan masters have no peers it just means you haven't read much.

[goldisheavy]

Burton Watson's translation of Zhuangzi, chapter 2:

 

 

If a man follows the mind given him and makes it his teacher, then who can be without a teacher? Why must you comprehend the process of change and form your mind on that basis before you can have a teacher? Even an idiot has his teacher. But to fail to abide by this mind and still insist upon your rights and wrongs - this is like saying that you set off for Yueh today and got there yesterday. This is to claim that what doesn't exist exists. If you claim that what doesn't exist exists, then even the holy sage Yu couldn't understand you, much less a person like me!

 

Ignore this at your own risk.

Edited August 6, 2014 by goldisheavy

[LaoZiDao]

Burton Watson's translation of Zhuangzi, chapter 2:

 

 

 

Ignore this at your own risk.

 

Cool, so what are Burton Watson's achievemnts in Neidan? It is a simple question with a simple answer.

 

Typical new age theorys, no understanding of what you are every talking about.

 

The mind is your teacher? Shishen? is your teacher? Okay well that does not align with anything that is discussed in Neidan classics. So why are you here then, what do you have to learn, your 'mind' already knows the secrets of life and death..apparently understands Neidan in full.. there is no need for a transmission for you, so in that case why are you even here on this earth?

 

The most important points of Neidan are not writen down (ie that is to say methods are not written down), they are handed down in person from Master to student, transmitted by word of mouth and instruction and demonstrations given where needed. When an alchemical Master writes a book, they are very cautious about what is said.

 

Ignore this at your own risk.

Edited August 6, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[goldisheavy]

The most important points of Neidan are not writen down (ie that is to say methods are not written down), they are handed down in person from Master to student, transmitted by word of mouth and instruction and demonstrations given where needed. When an alchemical Master writes a book, they are very cautious about what is said.

 

Ignore this at your own risk.

 

The most important thing to know about inner cultivation are the principles at work. Once you know the principles, the ideal methods become obvious on their own.

 

In fact, following other people's methods is like putting other people's dentures on top of your own teeth.

 

This is exactly why the three greats largely didn't bother writing down the methods, but instead spent all that effort and time in describing the principles.

Edited August 6, 2014 by goldisheavy

[LaoZiDao]

Sure so what are the principles then?

[goldisheavy]

When we read Buddhist doctrine, we see the same thing again as we see with the three Daoist classics. 90% of the texts are spent discussing the principles and only 10% the methods, at best.

[goldisheavy]

Sure so what are the principles then?

 

There are many. It'd be easier if you narrowed your question down some.

[alchemist]

Admitted that's an historic text your chap has translated but there are acres of those about.

'Historic text'? So you don’t know who Lu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan are, dear teacher of teachers? Well, I am not surprised.

As a Grandmaster ( a teacher of teachers by profession and persuasion) I've come to intuit that all paths tend towards success if followed diligently and with discipline.

That depends on what 'success' is in your understanding. Definitely, any path leads to some result, and you are free to call it a success. But these results may differ.

BR

Edited August 6, 2014 by alchemist

[alchemist]

 

You're avoiding the answer.

I am not. The true methods are never described openly. Zhongli Quan doesn't describe them. That is the answer to your question.

BR

[goldisheavy]

I am not. The true methods are never described openly. Zhongli Quan doesn't describe them. That is the answer to your question.

BR

 

That's just silly.

[alchemist]

 

That's just silly.

Well, you can blame the Patriarchs of Daoism. Maybe they were not as smart as you are.

BR

[alchemist]

The translated passage in the original post is not just a random selection amongst the vast corpus of Daoist writings. It is a well-known text containing a discussion between Lu Dongbin, generally recognized as the originator of extant alchemy schools all over China, and his master. The same admonitions seen there resurface in later writings and in oral teachings.

 

Its contents are considered very important amongst people whose affinity for internal alchemy teachings is great enough for them to have started to realize that qigong, martial arts neigong, and so forth are not the same thing as inner alchemy.

 

I do not know the original poster's reasons for posting. Whatever the reasons may be, the information is worthy of contemplation for all of us on this board. It reflects some of what you might hear in the rare chance that you get a chance to talk to an adept in China or even a person who's simply well-versed in neidan literature.

 

Also, Daoists have much respect for Zhuangzi's teachings, but the teachings are not invoked a la "whatever you do is right for you and nobody else can tell you what would work or doesn't," when it comes to practice instructions transmitted master to disciple.

Thank you for the comment, that's exactly what I am trying to tell.

BR

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

 

 

The most important points of Neidan are not writen down (ie that is to say methods are not written down), they are handed down in person from Master to student, transmitted by word of mouth and instruction and demonstrations given where needed.

Yes, never written down. In person, absolutely.

 

 

 

The Head of The School Wu Chung-Xu has explained in detail the general principles of different teachings in his book "Common Teachings of Immortals and Buddhas", the truth of the 3 teachings returning to their unity". Methods of WuLiuPai School took the major Buddhist works such as 金刚经, 楞 严 经, 华严经 and others, combined them with the works of perfect people in each school of Taoism, fused it into a single system, created the original School

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35670-wuliupai-school/?p=568667

 

Soooo, somebody explained the teachings in detail. In a text. He did it based on other texts. Then he created a school. From the texts. Then someone allegedly from that school says 'The most important points of Neidan are not writen down'.

 

yeah, whatev.

[allinone]

when you are aware what you are doing, it is external method, because when you stop doing it then also awareness of it disappears.

But when awareness does not disappear then all methods are pointless, then can cultivate directly.

[LaoZiDao]

Yes, never written down. In person, absolutely.

 

 

 

 

Soooo, somebody explained the teachings in detail. In a text. He did it based on other texts. Then he created a school. From the texts. Then someone allegedly from that school says 'The most important points of Neidan are not writen down'.

 

yeah, whatev.

 

Read again....."general principles" not methods

[LaoZiDao]

And do you even know who Wu Chung-Xu is?

[GrandmasterP]

This thread is a thinly disguised advertisement and propaganda for these shysters patent system.

Avoid.

[LaoZiDao]

Sigh

[alchemist]

Yes, never written down. In person, absolutely.

 

 

 

 

Soooo, somebody explained the teachings in detail. In a text. He did it based on other texts. Then he created a school. From the texts. Then someone allegedly from that school says 'The most important points of Neidan are not writen down'.

 

yeah, whatev.

Can you read what is written and not what you want to read? The school was created from an orthodox Daoist lineage, not from texts.

But looks like your only goal here is trolling.

[alchemist]

This thread is a thinly disguised advertisement and propaganda for these shysters patent system. Avoid.

Right, chum. I am advertising Lu Dongbin here. By the way, I have succeeded: at least one British 'grandmaster' has finally heard this name because of my advertisement.